1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,090 Auntie Lev, welcome to Legal Innovation Spotlight. 2 00:00:03,330 --> 00:00:04,140 Thank you so much, Ted. 3 00:00:04,590 --> 00:00:05,430 Pleasure to be here. 4 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,010 Yeah, this is gonna be a good one. 5 00:00:08,310 --> 00:00:09,960 Hey, this is a new format. 6 00:00:09,990 --> 00:00:14,760 I'm over a hundred episodes in and I haven't, um, I haven't done this debate 7 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:20,280 style format, but I'm really looking forward to it because it is a very 8 00:00:20,790 --> 00:00:27,030 important topic and I think there's a lot of opinions on the topic and 9 00:00:27,060 --> 00:00:29,310 those opinions, or I guess who's right. 10 00:00:29,970 --> 00:00:34,230 Has big implications on how this transformation 11 00:00:34,290 --> 00:00:35,790 unfolds within the industry. 12 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:42,180 So we're gonna get to hear from both of you guys on your take, but before we do, 13 00:00:42,180 --> 00:00:45,660 why don't we get you introduced an why don't we, uh, why don't we start with you, 14 00:00:45,660 --> 00:00:47,190 who you are, what you do, where you do it. 15 00:00:47,370 --> 00:00:47,760 Sure. 16 00:00:48,180 --> 00:00:53,315 My name is Nan, originally original from Finland, living now in sunny es Spain. 17 00:00:54,075 --> 00:00:58,515 I run two Businesses Dot, which is a legal design firm and legit, 18 00:00:58,905 --> 00:01:04,455 that is an AI focused firm and I'm a lawyer, ex tech lawyer. 19 00:01:04,515 --> 00:01:09,165 And, uh, now exploring AI and legal design and, uh, little 20 00:01:09,165 --> 00:01:11,175 bit the future of the lawyers. 21 00:01:12,105 --> 00:01:15,195 Nice Lev, once again, a pleasure to be here, Ted. 22 00:01:15,645 --> 00:01:17,020 So my name is Lev Ton. 23 00:01:17,670 --> 00:01:23,070 I am a legal tech investor, formerly a lawyer, a partner at a Magic circle firm, 24 00:01:23,130 --> 00:01:25,290 and looking forward to this conversation. 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:33,060 Yeah, so for those that didn't have visibility to this, an had a 26 00:01:33,690 --> 00:01:38,250 conversation with Richard Trumans on his podcast, and he talked about 27 00:01:38,310 --> 00:01:40,950 strategic work versus regular. 28 00:01:41,355 --> 00:01:46,185 Legal work and I thought it was a really good dialogue and I think it makes 29 00:01:46,185 --> 00:01:52,935 people step back and take inventory, mental inventory of what kind of work 30 00:01:52,935 --> 00:02:00,525 do lawyers do you know how much of the day-to-day work of lawyers is automatable? 31 00:02:00,825 --> 00:02:07,455 I posted on LinkedIn not too long ago about a McKinsey article that 32 00:02:07,455 --> 00:02:10,515 estimated that with today's technology. 33 00:02:10,950 --> 00:02:17,220 70% of legal work is automatable with the caveat that 25% of that 34 00:02:17,220 --> 00:02:21,060 still requires human-like skills. 35 00:02:21,150 --> 00:02:23,460 So think of a human in the loop. 36 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:30,240 And what's interesting about the those two numbers is 70 minus 25 is 45. 37 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,820 The Goldman Sachs report that came out that got everybody's attention shortly 38 00:02:35,820 --> 00:02:42,030 after chat, DGPT, I think it was in spring of 23, estimated that I think 44% of legal 39 00:02:42,030 --> 00:02:44,880 work was subject to automation through ai. 40 00:02:45,300 --> 00:02:50,250 I think a lot of people, including myself, were skeptical of that number because, 41 00:02:50,820 --> 00:02:55,935 you know, in spring of 23 we were still dealing with like chat GPT-3 five. 42 00:02:57,105 --> 00:02:58,515 4.0 hadn't even come out yet. 43 00:02:58,515 --> 00:03:00,975 Or if it had, it was, it was still very new. 44 00:03:01,665 --> 00:03:09,825 And I think that the, the, the trajectory upon which the technology has advanced, 45 00:03:10,245 --> 00:03:16,845 especially with legal reasoning through, you know, like Chet's O one model and now 46 00:03:16,995 --> 00:03:22,095 inference time compute is just kind of a standard offering in all the major models. 47 00:03:22,125 --> 00:03:26,054 It really, I, I reassess constantly, like, okay, what. 48 00:03:26,475 --> 00:03:27,645 What is realistic? 49 00:03:28,155 --> 00:03:32,685 So auntie, maybe you can give us kind of a Reader's Digest version of 50 00:03:32,685 --> 00:03:37,035 the conversation you had with, with Richard about regular legal work. 51 00:03:37,275 --> 00:03:41,055 Yeah, and maybe, maybe something to say before that one. 52 00:03:41,235 --> 00:03:44,985 And thanks for having this conversation because I think that this is exactly the 53 00:03:44,985 --> 00:03:46,815 discussion our profession needs to have. 54 00:03:47,340 --> 00:03:49,980 And I want to start by saying something clearly. 55 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,010 I think that Lev and I actually want the same thing. 56 00:03:53,070 --> 00:03:57,209 We both want the future where lawyers are thriving, where we're not drowning 57 00:03:57,209 --> 00:04:01,410 in volume, where we can actually serve our clients at a very high level. 58 00:04:01,410 --> 00:04:03,660 So we kind of like agree on the goal. 59 00:04:04,350 --> 00:04:08,220 I think that we, we disagree is whether we're prepared to get 60 00:04:08,220 --> 00:04:09,674 there or whether we're moving. 61 00:04:10,460 --> 00:04:14,570 Fast enough, and I think we are running out of time and I think that we are 62 00:04:14,570 --> 00:04:20,240 not taking this change as seriously enough as we could as a profession. 63 00:04:20,420 --> 00:04:27,560 So my point was actually that that most illegal work isn't tedious work, but 64 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,330 it's not highly strategical either. 65 00:04:30,245 --> 00:04:32,240 It's normal regular work. 66 00:04:32,659 --> 00:04:35,960 And when we are automating that work away. 67 00:04:36,599 --> 00:04:39,905 We are also automating the strategic part of Workaway. 68 00:04:41,130 --> 00:04:46,050 There isn't a magical cue of highly iCal work waiting for us. 69 00:04:46,050 --> 00:04:50,700 And also I feel like strategic work is highly demanding. 70 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:56,130 It's very, very demanding physically, uh, and, and, and other ways Still, 71 00:04:56,250 --> 00:04:58,140 it's really, really difficult. 72 00:04:59,130 --> 00:04:59,940 Strategic work. 73 00:05:00,210 --> 00:05:04,530 So those were my kind of like points in my 15 minute run and 74 00:05:04,620 --> 00:05:09,090 Lev responded, uh, nicely and in LinkedIn and shared his view of, of 75 00:05:09,090 --> 00:05:10,830 this one, and that's why we're here. 76 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:17,730 Well, before we get Lev's perspective, can you give us some examples of like, 77 00:05:17,730 --> 00:05:21,510 what is, when you say regular legal work, how do you, how do you define 78 00:05:21,510 --> 00:05:23,970 that relative to strategic work? 79 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:24,330 Well. 80 00:05:24,719 --> 00:05:28,800 I think that Levi is right, that these two things are intertwined. 81 00:05:29,130 --> 00:05:32,700 That is very difficult to separate actual strategic work 82 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:34,710 from your normal legal work. 83 00:05:34,979 --> 00:05:36,300 But I'm a lawyer myself. 84 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:37,440 I've had a law firm. 85 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:40,800 I've supervised hundreds of lawyers in their work. 86 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,510 And I would say that most of the legal work is legal work. 87 00:05:45,810 --> 00:05:48,720 It's not highly strategic, but it's not boring either. 88 00:05:48,810 --> 00:05:52,350 And to be honest with you, I think that the most of the strategic work 89 00:05:52,650 --> 00:05:54,750 comes from client side of things. 90 00:05:55,050 --> 00:05:58,590 The business is driving the strategy and lawyers and their 91 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,170 there to help the businesses out. 92 00:06:01,170 --> 00:06:02,070 So I think that. 93 00:06:02,580 --> 00:06:07,050 Even if we would like to increase the amount of strategic work that we're 94 00:06:07,050 --> 00:06:11,940 doing, it might be difficult because there isn't a queue of strategic work available 95 00:06:12,270 --> 00:06:16,860 and it's still the business that drives the strategy, not perhaps the lawyers, 96 00:06:16,980 --> 00:06:21,450 although I love lawyers who are strategic in their work, and there are certain 97 00:06:21,450 --> 00:06:26,250 instances where lawyers can actually like add that kind of like strategic value. 98 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,220 It might be less than what we think. 99 00:06:29,370 --> 00:06:29,730 Yeah. 100 00:06:29,730 --> 00:06:34,800 And I, this is, you hear a lot of talk about Java's paradox, right? 101 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:40,020 Which is the concept of as something becomes cheaper, there becomes an increase 102 00:06:40,020 --> 00:06:43,620 in demand for that product or service. 103 00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:48,300 And I have, you know, I have some questions about, we all would agree 104 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:50,070 that we live in a finite world. 105 00:06:50,370 --> 00:06:56,220 Nothing is infinite on planet Earth and what to what extent is. 106 00:06:56,745 --> 00:07:05,115 Demand able to fill the gap with what is going to be displaced by technology. 107 00:07:05,295 --> 00:07:06,945 And that's a really important question. 108 00:07:06,945 --> 00:07:12,585 So this is a, an extremely important conversation, and I don't think any of 109 00:07:12,585 --> 00:07:17,770 us have a crystal ball or a magic wand and can say exactly where that line will. 110 00:07:20,625 --> 00:07:24,885 We all know there's a ton of unmet demand, both on the consumer side and 111 00:07:24,885 --> 00:07:29,775 in the commercial world that will to some extent offset what is displaced. 112 00:07:30,164 --> 00:07:33,914 But you know, how that balances out I think is a very good discussion. 113 00:07:34,515 --> 00:07:40,275 So Lev, um, what is your take on Anti's position about regular 114 00:07:40,275 --> 00:07:43,245 legal work versus strategic work? 115 00:07:44,130 --> 00:07:47,970 Well, let me start by saying that I actually agree with Ansy. 116 00:07:48,060 --> 00:07:49,410 Not much of a debate is it? 117 00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:51,960 I agree that we want the same thing, and I agree. 118 00:07:52,260 --> 00:07:58,500 I think that we are seeing the same future, but perhaps Ansys view 119 00:07:58,500 --> 00:08:00,510 is a bit more dramatic than mine. 120 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,000 Let me sort of explain what I mean. 121 00:08:03,420 --> 00:08:09,420 Um, I think that there is no doubt that artificial intelligence 122 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,460 is a big game changer. 123 00:08:11,789 --> 00:08:12,120 Right. 124 00:08:12,450 --> 00:08:18,510 In my mind it's kind of like Prometheus giving fire to the world and there 125 00:08:18,750 --> 00:08:24,840 could be a lot of hand wringing about, well, what are we gonna do with fire? 126 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,370 And fire is dangerous and uh, we can get burned, we can get 127 00:08:29,370 --> 00:08:31,979 singed, and so on and so forth. 128 00:08:32,699 --> 00:08:37,949 But the fact remains fire is here and artificial intelligence is that fire. 129 00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:40,110 It's probably the first technology. 130 00:08:40,724 --> 00:08:46,454 In my lifetime, definitely that, uh, is capable of doing a 131 00:08:46,454 --> 00:08:48,405 meaningful share of legal work. 132 00:08:48,645 --> 00:08:56,564 And whether it's 44%, 45%, or uh, 20% I think remains to be seen. 133 00:08:56,984 --> 00:09:01,635 And this discussion is helpful, but I think that the baseline that we need to 134 00:09:01,905 --> 00:09:05,114 sort of adhere to is it's here, right? 135 00:09:05,175 --> 00:09:07,064 This is the technology that is actually here. 136 00:09:07,650 --> 00:09:11,130 So now with that out of the way, I will say that 137 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:18,660 yes, a lot of work that lawyers do is a mix. 138 00:09:19,020 --> 00:09:23,760 Uh, it's a mix of higher level thinking and routine stuff, but there 139 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:25,920 is a lot of routine stuff in there. 140 00:09:27,194 --> 00:09:32,775 I'm, as I was preparing myself for this conversation, I, um, I was thinking back 141 00:09:32,775 --> 00:09:39,194 to when I was a junior associate and I was preparing, let's say a signing, right. 142 00:09:39,344 --> 00:09:45,525 Uh, and those of us that are lawyers will know that you need to 143 00:09:45,525 --> 00:09:48,194 print out all the signature pages. 144 00:09:48,194 --> 00:09:50,055 You need to put them in folders. 145 00:09:50,594 --> 00:09:54,224 You need to make sure that there is enough signature pages 146 00:09:54,224 --> 00:09:56,204 for all the parties it sounds. 147 00:09:56,625 --> 00:09:57,705 So straightforward. 148 00:09:58,215 --> 00:10:04,150 The problem is when you are doing all of this, it basically gems up your bandwidth. 149 00:10:05,069 --> 00:10:08,010 Right, you need to go to the printer. 150 00:10:08,069 --> 00:10:09,990 Uh, somebody might pick up your print. 151 00:10:10,350 --> 00:10:12,360 The printer jams, all of this. 152 00:10:12,569 --> 00:10:14,189 It takes hours and hours. 153 00:10:14,220 --> 00:10:17,610 If it's a big enough signing, multiple parties, you need to make 154 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:21,000 sure that all the right versions of documents are in place and so on. 155 00:10:21,060 --> 00:10:25,589 And this is not, it's not strategic, it's purely clerical. 156 00:10:25,860 --> 00:10:29,430 I'm not going to miss it once you know DocuSign and appeared 157 00:10:29,430 --> 00:10:32,010 and reduced that kind of burden. 158 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:40,650 I'm gonna miss on Ansys point about sort of strategic work being difficult. 159 00:10:41,035 --> 00:10:45,840 I, I think that was the point, uh, that I originally picked up, uh, and, and, 160 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:51,930 and wanted to oppose it, is what we kind of came to the profession to deal with. 161 00:10:52,380 --> 00:10:52,770 Right. 162 00:10:52,860 --> 00:10:53,760 We actually. 163 00:10:55,515 --> 00:10:58,470 Help, help the business formulate the strategy. 164 00:10:58,470 --> 00:10:59,699 We want to refine it. 165 00:11:00,449 --> 00:11:05,069 Now, I'm an M and a lawyer, so a lot of people come in and they just say, 166 00:11:05,069 --> 00:11:08,370 well, we have this acquisition in mind. 167 00:11:08,610 --> 00:11:14,010 And as we talk with those clients, as we have our scoping discussions, 168 00:11:14,010 --> 00:11:19,230 our structure and discussions, their view of that deal is refined. 169 00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:22,770 They understand better why they're buying it. 170 00:11:22,829 --> 00:11:27,360 And maybe in some cases they come to the realization it's the wrong deal for them. 171 00:11:28,079 --> 00:11:28,410 Right? 172 00:11:28,439 --> 00:11:31,829 They kind of walking through all of those things. 173 00:11:31,829 --> 00:11:34,890 They um, they're like, what are we buying? 174 00:11:35,010 --> 00:11:35,969 What are we paying for? 175 00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:37,230 Are we paying too much? 176 00:11:37,319 --> 00:11:41,100 And that's, uh, that's the kind of thing. 177 00:11:41,250 --> 00:11:42,120 Those are the kinds of. 178 00:11:42,675 --> 00:11:48,225 Workflows that we genuinely need to be preserving to the extent 179 00:11:48,225 --> 00:11:50,145 that preservation is even possible. 180 00:11:50,205 --> 00:11:53,715 That's the, uh, that's what I think about when I'm thinking 181 00:11:53,715 --> 00:11:55,665 about strategic work, right? 182 00:11:55,755 --> 00:12:00,585 Guiding clients in refining and achieving their goals. 183 00:12:00,675 --> 00:12:03,015 So, Ansy, do you, do you agree with Lev's? 184 00:12:03,435 --> 00:12:04,005 Assessment. 185 00:12:04,275 --> 00:12:08,145 Yeah, I, I hate that we agree on so many things because it ruins the debate 186 00:12:08,205 --> 00:12:12,525 man, and Le lemme write that, that the volume blocks strategic thinking. 187 00:12:13,035 --> 00:12:16,125 And I agree with that completely, but this is where we differ. 188 00:12:16,365 --> 00:12:21,285 I think that you are seeing that removing that volume creates space 189 00:12:21,285 --> 00:12:23,145 that the strategic work will fill. 190 00:12:23,805 --> 00:12:28,275 And I think it just creates less total work because again, strategic 191 00:12:28,275 --> 00:12:32,100 work comes from client demand, not from lawyer availability. 192 00:12:33,165 --> 00:12:36,435 When I'm not fixing the printer, of course I'm saving my own time, but 193 00:12:36,464 --> 00:12:40,725 that doesn't necessarily mean that the work magically expands because 194 00:12:40,725 --> 00:12:42,915 I'm not fixing the printer anymore. 195 00:12:42,944 --> 00:12:48,165 And I think this brings to my, to my other point, view that it concentrates also 196 00:12:48,165 --> 00:12:50,895 very easily strategic work concentrates. 197 00:12:50,954 --> 00:12:55,935 If you look at any firm structure where we have non-equity partners or 198 00:12:55,995 --> 00:13:00,285 associates that aren't making partner, it's not because they're bad lawyers, 199 00:13:00,285 --> 00:13:02,444 but because there is a limited. 200 00:13:03,344 --> 00:13:07,425 Amount of truly strategic work, and it always has been like this. 201 00:13:07,844 --> 00:13:11,865 And maybe to con continue, you know, the, the eight hours of 202 00:13:11,865 --> 00:13:14,265 strategic work, uh, discussion. 203 00:13:14,475 --> 00:13:15,225 I don't know. 204 00:13:15,285 --> 00:13:20,385 For me, high stakes decision making is very exhausting, and I don't know 205 00:13:20,385 --> 00:13:25,425 if you can sustain it for, I don't know, 2000 billable hours per year. 206 00:13:26,069 --> 00:13:30,719 So even if strategic work expands, there is a limit of how 207 00:13:30,719 --> 00:13:32,579 any person can handle that one. 208 00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:37,920 Maybe we just won't need as many lawyers and we're not really talking about that. 209 00:13:38,459 --> 00:13:43,319 Lev, you chose m and a knowing that it would be stressful. 210 00:13:43,469 --> 00:13:43,859 Right? 211 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,670 And I fully believe that, but that's also a little bit of 212 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:49,439 like a selection bias, right? 213 00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:49,920 So. 214 00:13:51,540 --> 00:13:55,290 Some, you know, most lawyers don't choose their practice area based 215 00:13:55,290 --> 00:13:57,690 on desire for high stakes work. 216 00:13:57,810 --> 00:14:02,880 Maybe they choose on what job is available, what paid well, and uh, the 217 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:08,400 idea that all lawyers would, you know, that they would secretly want the bet. 218 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,100 The company kind of stress is maybe. 219 00:14:11,474 --> 00:14:13,064 You know, because it's coming from you. 220 00:14:13,064 --> 00:14:14,295 It's coming from a winners. 221 00:14:14,354 --> 00:14:15,704 Winners circle a little bit. 222 00:14:15,704 --> 00:14:19,755 You self-selected into it, but not every lawyer is like that. 223 00:14:19,875 --> 00:14:22,995 You know, half of lawyers are less than average. 224 00:14:23,234 --> 00:14:23,535 Right. 225 00:14:23,535 --> 00:14:27,464 So not, not like every lawyer wants that kind of stress. 226 00:14:27,525 --> 00:14:30,255 Even if we would, would have have something like that. 227 00:14:30,314 --> 00:14:33,074 So those are my kind of like counterpoints to this one. 228 00:14:34,005 --> 00:14:35,354 Lev, do you have a response to that? 229 00:14:35,354 --> 00:14:36,645 I do, I do. 230 00:14:36,645 --> 00:14:36,974 Ted. 231 00:14:37,365 --> 00:14:40,050 I think that we might be, once again. 232 00:14:40,860 --> 00:14:42,810 Confusing the terms a little bit. 233 00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:47,190 When I say sort of strategic, when I'm talking about strategic work, 234 00:14:47,370 --> 00:14:52,380 I am not necessarily talking about all the lawyers getting involved 235 00:14:52,380 --> 00:14:54,450 with multi-billion dollar mergers. 236 00:14:54,450 --> 00:14:59,940 Strategic work is ACT is the constant improvement, right? 237 00:14:59,970 --> 00:15:06,540 It's bringing more value, concentrated value to the client, right? 238 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:07,800 Instead of just. 239 00:15:08,205 --> 00:15:10,725 Repeating the same things over and over again. 240 00:15:10,725 --> 00:15:12,345 The safe ones, right? 241 00:15:12,435 --> 00:15:16,695 You can think of it as really understanding the sector, really 242 00:15:16,695 --> 00:15:20,565 understanding the product, not just being driven by precedent, 243 00:15:20,565 --> 00:15:22,185 actually going beyond precedent. 244 00:15:23,265 --> 00:15:28,395 A lot of your time is spent on minute clerical tasks, then you 245 00:15:28,395 --> 00:15:30,555 don't have the time to do it right. 246 00:15:30,555 --> 00:15:35,595 You need to, you are constantly in that grind and the there 247 00:15:35,595 --> 00:15:40,905 is endless, almost a limitless possibility of improving what we do. 248 00:15:41,175 --> 00:15:45,405 I went through your LinkedIn ansi and I saw you at some point 249 00:15:45,405 --> 00:15:48,615 blasting legal tech founders for. 250 00:15:50,070 --> 00:15:54,480 Using basically standardized terms of service, something which is 251 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,070 very similar to whatever you, you are going to see in B two P SaaS. 252 00:15:59,070 --> 00:15:59,370 Right. 253 00:15:59,460 --> 00:16:03,900 And your, your point was a perfectly noble and valid point, right? 254 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:05,970 With we need to do better. 255 00:16:06,330 --> 00:16:06,750 Right? 256 00:16:06,810 --> 00:16:11,700 We are, uh, after all the future of legal, whoever's building legal 257 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:13,290 tax should be future of legal. 258 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:19,260 But I am conscious of the fact, I'm cognizant of the fact that all these legal 259 00:16:19,260 --> 00:16:25,770 tech f uh, founders, they are putting out 10,000 fires every single day, right? 260 00:16:26,190 --> 00:16:29,700 They have to concentrate on the product, they have to concentrate on the sales. 261 00:16:30,330 --> 00:16:31,950 They don't have the time. 262 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:38,670 If we had unlimited time, we would, uh, sort of fix all the 263 00:16:38,730 --> 00:16:41,640 inefficiencies, all of the e rudiments. 264 00:16:42,075 --> 00:16:47,175 That the profession is plagued with, and as it as it stands, we, we can't right 265 00:16:47,235 --> 00:16:52,485 now on your point about concentration, the truth of the matter is it's 266 00:16:52,485 --> 00:16:54,765 not as concentrated as some people. 267 00:16:54,765 --> 00:16:55,635 I think imagine 268 00:16:58,095 --> 00:17:02,985 there have been numerous times when my associates would come 269 00:17:02,985 --> 00:17:04,335 to me and they would say. 270 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,859 This is the standard provision in our precedent. 271 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,030 Why are we using it? 272 00:17:09,150 --> 00:17:11,040 Doesn't it make you know? 273 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,480 Does it actually make sense? 274 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,180 Could we improve it when they have the time? 275 00:17:15,180 --> 00:17:20,220 When lawyers have the time, they can look critically at what the flows 276 00:17:20,220 --> 00:17:26,520 are, what the actual work is, and that's when they really improve. 277 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,850 That's when the clients and the society at large. 278 00:17:30,750 --> 00:17:32,730 Is getting a much better result. 279 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,290 Let me stop here. 280 00:17:34,290 --> 00:17:38,460 And yeah, I think the, your final point was on selection bias. 281 00:17:38,490 --> 00:17:42,180 I think the first two points, my responses on the first two points, 282 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:44,250 sort of address your point, right? 283 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:50,310 You don't have to be in a high pressure environment to wanna improve the 284 00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:52,170 work product that you're delivering. 285 00:17:52,620 --> 00:17:55,590 Whatever you do, it doesn't really matter if you're a divorce lawyer, 286 00:17:55,590 --> 00:17:57,570 if you're doing car accidents. 287 00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:02,460 These are all standardized things, but you can actually reflect on what 288 00:18:02,460 --> 00:18:08,670 it is you do and you can make major improvements in the way you deliver the 289 00:18:08,670 --> 00:18:13,110 work product to the client in what you actually deliver, in how you're running 290 00:18:13,110 --> 00:18:14,760 your firm, and so on and so forth. 291 00:18:14,850 --> 00:18:20,905 My point is legal tech ought to make the profession a lot more efficient. 292 00:18:23,615 --> 00:18:27,810 An what's, what's your beef with, uh, SaaS terms of service? 293 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:30,210 Nothing. 294 00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:35,220 I'm not trying to dunk on vendors, but I'm just saying like, if you are. 295 00:18:36,225 --> 00:18:39,525 Having a legal tech tool that is very powerful, such as Harvey 296 00:18:39,585 --> 00:18:43,695 or Allura, maybe you should use it on your own terms of service. 297 00:18:43,845 --> 00:18:45,345 It doesn't take that much time. 298 00:18:45,345 --> 00:18:45,705 Right. 299 00:18:46,215 --> 00:18:49,815 It's, it's, it's super complicated or complex. 300 00:18:49,845 --> 00:18:54,645 I'm saying that what I'm not seeing these vendors are the things that 301 00:18:54,825 --> 00:18:57,075 Liv says that we would improve. 302 00:18:57,735 --> 00:18:58,514 The services. 303 00:18:58,575 --> 00:19:02,024 I'm seeing a lot of efficiency games, games, but not a lot 304 00:19:02,024 --> 00:19:03,615 of like true improvements. 305 00:19:03,945 --> 00:19:09,375 And again, I'm not attacking vendors, but I'm saying that we can't outsource 306 00:19:09,825 --> 00:19:11,774 our professional future to them. 307 00:19:11,925 --> 00:19:13,544 It's not their responsibility. 308 00:19:14,445 --> 00:19:17,310 That's our responsibility, not their respons. 309 00:19:18,450 --> 00:19:22,830 Maybe, you know, I, I want to come back to the URA commercial. 310 00:19:22,830 --> 00:19:23,910 Have you seen that one? 311 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:24,360 Maybe. 312 00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:28,500 Maybe you have, if you haven't, maybe we can, we can link, link to you 313 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:35,010 to it where the lawyer of the year forwards everything to AI tools, right? 314 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,980 They have a nice, cool commercial where you have like a lawyer of the 315 00:19:37,980 --> 00:19:43,080 year who does a lot of work with AI and then forwards all the questions. 316 00:19:43,935 --> 00:19:49,965 She gets from the senior partner to AI and kind of like PS the fools in the 317 00:19:49,965 --> 00:19:54,735 data room or who are fixing the printer because they're doing manual labor, 318 00:19:54,735 --> 00:19:56,475 they're doing traditional legal work. 319 00:19:56,564 --> 00:20:00,915 Like let said, fixing printer takes a lot of your time and it's meant to be fun. 320 00:20:00,915 --> 00:20:04,215 I know I don't want to be like too critical about it, but it 321 00:20:04,215 --> 00:20:06,165 kind of like shows the worldview. 322 00:20:06,165 --> 00:20:09,465 You know, you divide to winners and losers, people who use 323 00:20:09,524 --> 00:20:10,699 ai, people who don't use. 324 00:20:11,415 --> 00:20:16,005 And the successful lawyer isn't doing much of a strategic work. 325 00:20:16,185 --> 00:20:19,245 She's just lightly prompting the AI tools. 326 00:20:19,785 --> 00:20:25,395 So I'm not seeing that kind of future where the legal work could actually 327 00:20:25,395 --> 00:20:29,625 be improved, and I'm definitely not seeing that kind of future. 328 00:20:31,050 --> 00:20:36,390 Legal, uh, tech vendors perspective that they would help lawyers to increase 329 00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:40,950 the strategic work that we're doing and might have a good count, counterpoint 330 00:20:40,955 --> 00:20:44,190 to, to that one, but I don't think that that's their responsibility. 331 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,920 They are there to disrupt the industry. 332 00:20:47,264 --> 00:20:52,695 Not to look out for us not to care about our professional future. 333 00:20:52,695 --> 00:20:56,834 That is our job, and that's why I feel such a sense of urgency. 334 00:20:56,834 --> 00:21:01,215 That's why I'm trying to speak out a little bit, because I think that the time 335 00:21:01,215 --> 00:21:03,435 is running out and we have to take action. 336 00:21:03,435 --> 00:21:04,875 We can't be so reactive. 337 00:21:04,875 --> 00:21:09,314 We actually have to take action and not trust so much vendors. 338 00:21:10,845 --> 00:21:16,365 Us, even if we would like to do more strategic work, we have to be proactive 339 00:21:16,365 --> 00:21:18,315 in getting that strategic work. 340 00:21:20,025 --> 00:21:23,955 Halfway through the podcast and this has been really good dialogue, but 341 00:21:24,315 --> 00:21:29,415 I want to, I wanna move on to the topic of urgency because I think 342 00:21:29,415 --> 00:21:31,155 it is an extremely important one. 343 00:21:31,245 --> 00:21:32,415 I have a take on this. 344 00:21:32,445 --> 00:21:38,205 I'm more in auntie's camp about the speed at which, and I think love you 345 00:21:38,205 --> 00:21:42,165 and I may have talked about this when you were on the podcast last, I think 346 00:21:42,165 --> 00:21:48,555 the industry is moving too slow and I, I, I think that the challenge is that. 347 00:21:48,899 --> 00:21:51,990 Much of what has to change in law firms is culture. 348 00:21:52,649 --> 00:21:54,149 It's not buying a new tool. 349 00:21:54,389 --> 00:21:58,889 And yes, you need to deploy change management sound, change 350 00:21:58,889 --> 00:22:01,949 management processes, and invest in change management. 351 00:22:02,129 --> 00:22:07,290 But the hardest part right now, I've seen this here in the us, there's been 352 00:22:07,290 --> 00:22:12,780 a wave of McKinsey and Bain consultants partners who have left and come into 353 00:22:12,780 --> 00:22:15,120 the legal world, and they're frustrated. 354 00:22:15,450 --> 00:22:20,340 Some of them are friends of mine who say, we were promised 355 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,390 that there was an appetite for change and a sense of urgency. 356 00:22:24,780 --> 00:22:27,630 And there is at the leadership level, right? 357 00:22:27,630 --> 00:22:33,450 I think that the ex comms understand the implications of this transformation 358 00:22:33,540 --> 00:22:37,620 and the need to move quickly, and I think at the lower ranks, the 359 00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:41,370 junior associates, I'm sorry, the junior partners, the associates, 360 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,650 the younger generation also get it. 361 00:22:44,804 --> 00:22:49,215 It's in the middle where I think that culture is deeply embedded, 362 00:22:49,215 --> 00:22:52,064 the culture of resistance to change. 363 00:22:52,395 --> 00:22:56,685 This has been the status quo in legal for as long as I've been around. 364 00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:58,740 And, and likely much longer. 365 00:22:58,890 --> 00:23:01,320 And culture takes a really long time to change. 366 00:23:01,379 --> 00:23:07,890 And I'm seeing leaders get frustrated who were brought in to effect change and some 367 00:23:07,890 --> 00:23:12,750 of them are moving on or some of them will be soon and we gotta get it together. 368 00:23:12,750 --> 00:23:17,460 We gotta get everybody, including, you know, this is another area of 369 00:23:17,790 --> 00:23:19,140 that doesn't get discussed enough. 370 00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:20,430 I call it deep admin. 371 00:23:21,030 --> 00:23:24,570 In the admin functions at law firms, the business of law functions. 372 00:23:25,004 --> 00:23:30,735 HR tech, knowledge management, marketing leaders have been selected, hand 373 00:23:30,735 --> 00:23:35,175 chosen because of their resistance to change by law firm leaders. 374 00:23:35,535 --> 00:23:37,275 And now you're gonna say, Hey, guess what? 375 00:23:37,395 --> 00:23:38,565 Everything needs to change. 376 00:23:38,985 --> 00:23:40,905 That's, that is gonna take a lot of time. 377 00:23:41,115 --> 00:23:42,465 It's gonna take a lot of effort. 378 00:23:42,735 --> 00:23:47,175 That deep admin function is going to move very slowly. 379 00:23:47,175 --> 00:23:49,520 So it's not just the practice, it's the entire. 380 00:23:50,504 --> 00:23:54,554 Broadly, so I don't think we're moving fast enough either because cultural 381 00:23:54,554 --> 00:23:59,564 change is so hard to implement, and I'm already seeing signs of, uh, 382 00:23:59,564 --> 00:24:05,235 change agents that were brought in from big names to push in that direction. 383 00:24:05,625 --> 00:24:10,514 Lev, what's your, what's your response to how swiftly or not the industry's moving? 384 00:24:12,015 --> 00:24:14,475 I think we all have our views on this. 385 00:24:14,565 --> 00:24:19,030 Uh, Ted, and actually, my, my first thought is, I'm not sure you, are, you, 386 00:24:19,035 --> 00:24:20,835 you, you're completely aligned with Ansy. 387 00:24:22,290 --> 00:24:25,605 Uh, I I think that now we aren't disagreeing, right? 388 00:24:25,605 --> 00:24:25,845 Yeah. 389 00:24:25,845 --> 00:24:28,755 I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm kind of wondering whether Ansy would sort 390 00:24:28,755 --> 00:24:31,575 of agree with, uh, the need to, um. 391 00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:37,230 Plunge headlong into the change without sort of, uh, assessing what 392 00:24:37,230 --> 00:24:39,300 this is going to do to the industry. 393 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,670 But, um, I'll share some anecdotal evidence and obviously you have 394 00:24:44,670 --> 00:24:48,210 your vein and McKinsey, people who are disappointed and the 395 00:24:48,210 --> 00:24:49,890 industry is not moving fast enough. 396 00:24:50,445 --> 00:24:55,605 I'll tell you that yesterday I was speaking to one of my co-investors and, 397 00:24:55,635 --> 00:24:57,945 uh, he's a partner at a big law firm. 398 00:24:58,004 --> 00:25:01,845 And he said to me that right at that very moment, uh, you know, what he 399 00:25:01,845 --> 00:25:06,584 has on his computer screen is two tabs of leg and, uh, and Gemini, 400 00:25:07,274 --> 00:25:09,314 uh, he's more or less my intake. 401 00:25:10,125 --> 00:25:16,574 Three days ago I spoke to a partner, uh, at a major Canadian law firm, um, 402 00:25:16,814 --> 00:25:19,365 who is older than me, probably a bit. 403 00:25:19,770 --> 00:25:24,030 At, at least 10 years older, um, has been in the profession for 404 00:25:24,030 --> 00:25:26,460 30 years as opposed to 20 years. 405 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:32,040 Uh, and when I asked him about legal tech, his response was, six 406 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,100 months ago, I would've scoffed at your question and I would've 407 00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:37,560 said, legal tech is not necessary. 408 00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:40,980 It's, it's all a toy for our leadership, as you put it, Ted. 409 00:25:41,310 --> 00:25:42,990 So the leadership recognizes it. 410 00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:44,550 Rank and file don't. 411 00:25:44,610 --> 00:25:46,050 Now I use Harvey. 412 00:25:47,385 --> 00:25:49,190 All day, every day, day. 413 00:25:49,195 --> 00:25:52,095 In fact, I've got a separate monitor in my office. 414 00:25:52,095 --> 00:25:55,095 The third one that just has heart, right? 415 00:25:55,215 --> 00:25:58,725 And I think that is healthy, right? 416 00:25:58,785 --> 00:26:00,525 I actually think this is healthy. 417 00:26:00,915 --> 00:26:05,805 One of my key observations about the profession is the profession 418 00:26:05,805 --> 00:26:07,635 was never a monolith, right? 419 00:26:07,845 --> 00:26:12,105 It was never uniform in the way it approached gearing. 420 00:26:12,660 --> 00:26:13,830 Approach technology. 421 00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:17,250 It approached the need for international expansion, what, 422 00:26:17,250 --> 00:26:18,480 whatever you name it, right? 423 00:26:18,690 --> 00:26:20,970 Every, every law firm is different. 424 00:26:21,060 --> 00:26:24,420 Culture is not just the way people talk in the corridors. 425 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,650 It's also about the vision, who we wanna be as a law firm. 426 00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:34,950 And what's happening right now is firms are experimenting, trying to figure 427 00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:40,440 out how much technology they wanna embed in their work streams, right? 428 00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:44,250 You know, some people will complain. 429 00:26:44,250 --> 00:26:45,150 It's too slow. 430 00:26:45,330 --> 00:26:46,530 Some people will complain. 431 00:26:46,530 --> 00:26:47,490 It's too fast. 432 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:53,070 It's just not a, uh, sort of, it's not unitary. 433 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,320 The profession is not unitary. 434 00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:57,385 Some corners of the profession will move faster. 435 00:26:57,455 --> 00:26:57,745 Some. 436 00:26:59,084 --> 00:27:02,114 And they, they will be driven by, you know, to move faster. 437 00:27:02,205 --> 00:27:04,064 Ultimately, it's all about the clients. 438 00:27:04,064 --> 00:27:05,685 It's all about the economics. 439 00:27:05,685 --> 00:27:11,054 We've seen a lot of adoption of legal tech in the personal injury space. 440 00:27:11,054 --> 00:27:11,655 For instance. 441 00:27:11,685 --> 00:27:13,185 It makes sense, right? 442 00:27:13,544 --> 00:27:18,794 They, for them, efficiency is the lifeblood of what they do at 443 00:27:18,794 --> 00:27:20,564 the top level of the profession. 444 00:27:21,524 --> 00:27:24,449 If you were doing multi-billion dollar mergers and you get paid. 445 00:27:25,409 --> 00:27:28,470 50 million, a hundred million to a certain extent. 446 00:27:28,530 --> 00:27:33,030 Uh, clients are fee insensitive at those levels. 447 00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:34,649 You don't want to rock that boat. 448 00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:37,350 You don't want to disrupt yourself too much. 449 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:41,460 And even at that level, you are seeing some firms that are very. 450 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:42,440 Progressive. 451 00:27:42,740 --> 00:27:46,430 And they're, uh, doing their, you know, they have their own incubators. 452 00:27:46,430 --> 00:27:48,409 They are developing their own products. 453 00:27:48,470 --> 00:27:51,920 Some of them are public about it, some of them are not so public about it. 454 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,629 I, I, I know that firms are developing stuff in secret and stealth, uh, using 455 00:27:56,629 --> 00:27:58,670 their proprietary data and so on. 456 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,110 So I don't think the right question is to the right question to ask is, 457 00:28:03,170 --> 00:28:04,820 is the profession moving fast enough? 458 00:28:04,879 --> 00:28:07,820 There is no profession in that sense, right. 459 00:28:08,205 --> 00:28:10,754 The profession is fragmented. 460 00:28:10,875 --> 00:28:13,305 There is a And you, you said that yourself, Ted, right? 461 00:28:13,935 --> 00:28:17,535 It's highly fragmented and people will have different approaches to this problem. 462 00:28:17,595 --> 00:28:17,955 Yeah. 463 00:28:18,045 --> 00:28:21,315 Uh, the question is, are the, are the people with the slow approaches 464 00:28:21,315 --> 00:28:23,055 going to exist in five years? 465 00:28:23,055 --> 00:28:28,305 That's a question I have, but Auntie, what is your, do we disagree on on that? 466 00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:29,475 Do you have a different perspective? 467 00:28:30,435 --> 00:28:31,365 Not necessarily. 468 00:28:31,365 --> 00:28:34,965 My perspective is a little bit different because we have adoption 469 00:28:34,965 --> 00:28:39,495 metrics and maybe like preparation metrics, and I think that there is a 470 00:28:39,495 --> 00:28:41,565 difference between these two things. 471 00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:43,650 How would define that? 472 00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:47,460 One is like adoption, is buying tools, learning to use, 473 00:28:47,460 --> 00:28:49,470 then somebody using Harvey. 474 00:28:49,950 --> 00:28:54,420 And preparation is like restructuring how we train lawyers 475 00:28:54,420 --> 00:28:56,520 or how we define our own value. 476 00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:59,940 And there is a huge difference between those two things. 477 00:29:00,330 --> 00:29:05,220 And of course, it's really important that we invest time in knowing 478 00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:09,990 how to use these tools to train our staff to become AI literate. 479 00:29:10,020 --> 00:29:10,980 I even have a book out on. 480 00:29:12,255 --> 00:29:16,695 So I see the value of people training on these tools, but I'm just thinking 481 00:29:16,695 --> 00:29:21,435 like, okay, if strategic work is our future, if that's where we're heading, 482 00:29:21,855 --> 00:29:23,895 where is the strategic training? 483 00:29:24,375 --> 00:29:28,065 You mentioned left some impressive numbers like robes and Greg giving 484 00:29:28,065 --> 00:29:32,595 first years 20% of their time for AI work, and that's plenty of hours. 485 00:29:33,045 --> 00:29:35,625 But what are these people learning in those hours? 486 00:29:36,314 --> 00:29:39,554 Are they learning to write better prompts or are they using 487 00:29:39,554 --> 00:29:41,385 to use the tools efficiently? 488 00:29:41,415 --> 00:29:44,324 Or are they learning to think strategically? 489 00:29:44,594 --> 00:29:49,965 Are they, I don't know, learning like negotiation psychology or developing like 490 00:29:49,965 --> 00:29:52,875 business acumen or industry expertise? 491 00:29:53,445 --> 00:29:55,935 I would like to see these two tracks. 492 00:29:56,475 --> 00:29:59,564 You know, maybe they will combine next at some point. 493 00:30:00,075 --> 00:30:05,385 So it wouldn't only be about the AI adoption, about how to prompt or how to 494 00:30:05,385 --> 00:30:10,635 use more efficiently these tools, but also how could we raise the bar a little bit? 495 00:30:10,695 --> 00:30:16,485 How could we come up with better legal outcomes or how could we focus more 496 00:30:16,485 --> 00:30:20,595 strategic thinking so that we could actually pull more strategic work in? 497 00:30:20,685 --> 00:30:21,585 Do you see my drift? 498 00:30:21,645 --> 00:30:25,245 That that I see like the changes happening on two, two different checks. 499 00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:29,310 You need to learn to crawl before you learn to walk. 500 00:30:29,310 --> 00:30:29,580 Right. 501 00:30:29,670 --> 00:30:33,600 Uh, and and I, and I think that's just something that in this environment 502 00:30:33,660 --> 00:30:38,370 where the promise is sort of boundless, the promise of AI is boundless. 503 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,240 People kind of tend to forget that you need to learn the first principles 504 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,420 and you need to, if you're, if you're learning to play chess, you 505 00:30:45,420 --> 00:30:47,040 need to understand how pieces move. 506 00:30:47,545 --> 00:30:49,765 You need to understand the setup of the chessboard. 507 00:30:49,855 --> 00:30:53,545 I don't think that the first year associates who were provided with 508 00:30:53,545 --> 00:30:58,225 that time allowance that counts as billable are learning human psychology 509 00:30:58,225 --> 00:31:03,505 and how you frame certain things and negotiations and those kinds of things. 510 00:31:03,895 --> 00:31:06,565 They are learning the basics of. 511 00:31:07,469 --> 00:31:08,760 That would be my guess. 512 00:31:09,149 --> 00:31:14,250 They are being prepared to be very, very efficient with the tasks at 513 00:31:14,250 --> 00:31:19,439 their level so that they actually can become better lawyers faster. 514 00:31:20,580 --> 00:31:26,760 And I, I've already offered this analogy, uh, several times and if you guys have 515 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,010 read my posts, you will have seen it. 516 00:31:29,129 --> 00:31:30,870 Uh, uh, I'm a chess player. 517 00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:35,910 And it used to be that you needed to be, you needed to play thousands 518 00:31:35,910 --> 00:31:40,920 of games on the board live to become a more proficient chess player. 519 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,670 And that was the only way, now that you have computers, 520 00:31:44,820 --> 00:31:48,660 artificial intelligence people are becoming grad grant masters at 12. 521 00:31:49,274 --> 00:31:51,645 The, the world cha chess champion is 18. 522 00:31:52,185 --> 00:31:56,685 You actually can level yourself up much faster. 523 00:31:57,284 --> 00:32:00,044 There will be a separation, no doubt about it. 524 00:32:00,225 --> 00:32:06,225 Um, both you and c and Ted are concerned about sort of the winners 525 00:32:06,225 --> 00:32:10,395 and losers and, uh, uh, how, how the, these people will select. 526 00:32:10,905 --> 00:32:12,344 There's always a separation. 527 00:32:13,170 --> 00:32:16,140 Some people become partners, some people don't become partners. 528 00:32:16,230 --> 00:32:21,360 Um, some people, uh, uh, whatever make 25 million a year. 529 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,050 Others are satisfied to make 250,000 a year, and that's okay. 530 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:25,560 Right? 531 00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:27,210 Not different strokes. 532 00:32:27,420 --> 00:32:28,800 Strokes for different folks, right? 533 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:29,400 For courses. 534 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,030 For courses. 535 00:32:30,090 --> 00:32:35,130 But the point I am seeing is the ability is there, the tool set is there. 536 00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:38,160 That fire that Prometheus brought us. 537 00:32:38,730 --> 00:32:39,780 Is actually here. 538 00:32:40,050 --> 00:32:40,350 Right? 539 00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:41,640 How we use it. 540 00:32:41,850 --> 00:32:45,690 And that kind of goes to your point, Ansy about, you know, is this, are 541 00:32:45,690 --> 00:32:49,980 we outsourcing the future of our profession to legal tech vendors? 542 00:32:50,430 --> 00:32:51,840 Is this their responsibility? 543 00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:54,330 No, it's absolutely not their responsibility. 544 00:32:54,870 --> 00:33:00,395 It's our responsibility to figure out how we use legal tech and what we do with it. 545 00:33:01,965 --> 00:33:06,735 I mean, a lot of things have disrupted a lot of professions. 546 00:33:06,765 --> 00:33:11,415 iPhones have changed the world, even Blackies do to a, to to a lesser extent. 547 00:33:11,445 --> 00:33:16,095 Are we laying the blame at Steve Jobs's door for the fact that 548 00:33:16,095 --> 00:33:17,505 now lawyers are always on call? 549 00:33:18,095 --> 00:33:18,695 Not really. 550 00:33:18,695 --> 00:33:18,935 Right? 551 00:33:18,995 --> 00:33:21,784 We are, we're just like, well, that's, that has happened. 552 00:33:21,995 --> 00:33:26,524 That's, that's the way we, we are having this discussion using video conference 553 00:33:26,825 --> 00:33:28,715 that didn't exist even 10 years ago. 554 00:33:28,715 --> 00:33:29,855 This was very unusual. 555 00:33:29,885 --> 00:33:33,155 Now, every single call is a video conference call. 556 00:33:33,425 --> 00:33:34,625 You can no longer serve. 557 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,750 Put the call on speaker and do something else you actually need to be looking at, 558 00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:41,220 at the people you're conversing with. 559 00:33:41,370 --> 00:33:44,730 Let me stop here and, uh, and, and see if I've addressed the question. 560 00:33:44,820 --> 00:33:45,030 Yeah. 561 00:33:45,030 --> 00:33:47,610 Andy, what is your response to that? 562 00:33:47,850 --> 00:33:52,679 Yeah, I think that the vendors will build what they can build and the clients 563 00:33:52,679 --> 00:33:56,909 will demand efficiency, and I think that those things are happening regardless. 564 00:33:56,909 --> 00:33:59,250 So we agree maybe on that one. 565 00:33:59,370 --> 00:34:02,340 I think what is in our control, whether we. 566 00:34:02,774 --> 00:34:07,305 Prepare or do we just react on things that are happening to us? 567 00:34:07,485 --> 00:34:12,045 And I think that, I mean, you might disagree with me on this one, but I 568 00:34:12,045 --> 00:34:16,545 think right now we are just reacting to things that are happening to us. 569 00:34:17,085 --> 00:34:21,195 So kind of like my challenge, and this is my original challenge to the 570 00:34:21,195 --> 00:34:23,864 profession, is like take it seriously. 571 00:34:24,255 --> 00:34:28,154 Like we should act like the strategic work is the future. 572 00:34:28,694 --> 00:34:33,525 So we should invest in real training, real strategic training, and. 573 00:34:34,050 --> 00:34:38,850 Uh, the ai, so, so that we could use the AI tools in our disposal 574 00:34:39,330 --> 00:34:43,800 and then we should have this very uncomfortable but honest workforce 575 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:49,290 conversations make maybe the hard choices now before we are forced to. 576 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:54,150 And Liv had a good point about the, uh, kind of like the lawyer identity. 577 00:34:54,620 --> 00:34:57,470 Changing or evolving also in his post. 578 00:34:57,799 --> 00:35:02,839 And I think that's, that's important also, we are consistently evolving. 579 00:35:02,899 --> 00:35:07,339 I said earlier that lawyers are a little bit like cockroaches, right? 580 00:35:07,339 --> 00:35:09,049 We are very hard to get rid of. 581 00:35:09,350 --> 00:35:09,560 Right? 582 00:35:09,799 --> 00:35:12,379 We are resourceful, crafty. 583 00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:16,410 Things that are very, very difficult to get rid of. 584 00:35:16,410 --> 00:35:20,580 So I would like to see that kind of like cockroach mentality a little bit more 585 00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:25,770 where we would actually take matters into our own hands, start evolving as 586 00:35:25,770 --> 00:35:31,320 a profession and uh, and not just to be so reactive and be so complacent. 587 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,250 Just learning how to prompt a little bit better, learning how to use. 588 00:35:35,570 --> 00:35:37,340 The tools a little bit more efficiently. 589 00:35:37,460 --> 00:35:41,600 Isn't the legal industry in general, hasn't it always been extremely reactive? 590 00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:43,910 I mean, how do law firms get work? 591 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,270 They sit there and wait for the phone to ring the majority of the time. 592 00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:47,840 Right. 593 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,500 When a client has a problem, it's, there are examples of where firms have. 594 00:35:53,130 --> 00:35:58,049 Been proactive and you know, scan the docketing system and tell a client that 595 00:35:58,049 --> 00:36:00,029 they've been, they've been sued before. 596 00:36:00,029 --> 00:36:02,009 The client knows, and those are outliers. 597 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:07,350 In general, law firms have have been very reactive, not just in 598 00:36:07,830 --> 00:36:11,700 how they deliver services, but how they invest in technology. 599 00:36:11,730 --> 00:36:14,610 You know, we have a info dash is an intranet and extranet 600 00:36:14,610 --> 00:36:16,650 platform, and on the intranet side. 601 00:36:17,055 --> 00:36:18,765 It's really kind of hard to articulate. 602 00:36:18,765 --> 00:36:21,915 ROI like it's a culture building. 603 00:36:21,944 --> 00:36:26,265 It's a, we call it reducing the toggling tax, but it's squishy. 604 00:36:26,265 --> 00:36:29,384 ROI and, but it, there is value there. 605 00:36:29,625 --> 00:36:34,379 It's if you wanna present a professional a. Appearance to 606 00:36:34,379 --> 00:36:36,480 your internal stakeholders. 607 00:36:36,899 --> 00:36:39,839 Having a place where lawyers and business professionals 608 00:36:39,839 --> 00:36:42,299 can go and search for assets. 609 00:36:42,299 --> 00:36:46,259 It could be searching for legal talent or looking at latest 610 00:36:46,259 --> 00:36:50,430 firm news or the CLEs that are upcoming or learn about a practice. 611 00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:51,660 It's really important. 612 00:36:51,750 --> 00:36:55,140 Do you know when law firms invest or refresh? 613 00:36:55,210 --> 00:36:57,220 It's when they have a gun against their head. 614 00:36:57,250 --> 00:36:57,550 Right? 615 00:36:57,550 --> 00:36:59,800 There's a version of SharePoint that they have it deployed 616 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,030 on that's going end of life. 617 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:02,290 Great example. 618 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,500 The current, the last version of SharePoint on-prem 619 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,120 goes end of life in July. 620 00:37:07,475 --> 00:37:11,440 It it, it is a year long project to move an intranet. 621 00:37:11,890 --> 00:37:15,670 We are getting calls like right now and have to say no. 622 00:37:16,090 --> 00:37:21,130 So I think my take auntie is that's the default position. 623 00:37:21,130 --> 00:37:23,740 Reactive is the default position for law firms. 624 00:37:23,740 --> 00:37:24,100 Do you agree? 625 00:37:25,740 --> 00:37:29,760 Now there's something interesting also happening in legal tech world that I, 626 00:37:29,820 --> 00:37:33,720 I think that we should follow closely, which links to this discussion nicely. 627 00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:40,170 New tools like Harvey Shared Spaces and Lego Portal are giving clients. 628 00:37:40,569 --> 00:37:45,220 Very direct access to their cases so the client can see their documents, they 629 00:37:45,220 --> 00:37:50,379 can maybe run the analysis, maybe they can ask questions of the AI directly. 630 00:37:50,439 --> 00:37:52,149 And this is happening right now. 631 00:37:52,149 --> 00:37:57,009 So I think it's interesting also, like who develops the legal strategy in the future? 632 00:37:57,100 --> 00:38:02,495 Is it more like client led or, or like traditionally lawyers did that because we. 633 00:38:03,314 --> 00:38:04,694 Control the information. 634 00:38:04,694 --> 00:38:08,865 We were kind of like the translators, the gatekeepers of the legal information. 635 00:38:09,194 --> 00:38:14,685 So the, uh, asymmetry was on our side, but I think that's maybe disappearing 636 00:38:14,805 --> 00:38:19,455 a little bit now and when the clients have the same tools as we do when 637 00:38:19,455 --> 00:38:21,285 they can access the same information. 638 00:38:21,404 --> 00:38:24,134 So what is our value proposition then? 639 00:38:24,464 --> 00:38:28,274 Where do, do you need a lawyer that uses Lega or, or Harvard? 640 00:38:29,310 --> 00:38:31,320 It has to be the strategic part, right? 641 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,960 So I definitely agree with, with Liv, and that's why I think we should focus 642 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,610 on the strategic side, side of things and not just using these tools because 643 00:38:42,030 --> 00:38:46,020 very soon the clients will have the similar tools at their uh, disposal. 644 00:38:46,650 --> 00:38:46,980 Yeah. 645 00:38:46,980 --> 00:38:48,000 They, they already do. 646 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,060 Harvey has a big install base in the corporate world. 647 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,240 So we're, we're almost outta time, but I want to ask both of you, 'cause I think 648 00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:55,890 you both have really unique perspective. 649 00:38:55,950 --> 00:39:00,660 One, one question about these tools and how much these tools, 650 00:39:00,660 --> 00:39:03,630 and it's not a Harvey or Lago thing, it's really an AI thing. 651 00:39:03,870 --> 00:39:06,630 How much are these tools gonna displace law firm revenue? 652 00:39:07,380 --> 00:39:07,710 Right. 653 00:39:07,799 --> 00:39:13,049 If you, if, if you look at the valuations, it's going to be a significant portion 654 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,509 or these, all these investors were wrong. 655 00:39:16,365 --> 00:39:21,165 There's no way you can get to an $8 billion valuation and it not 656 00:39:22,245 --> 00:39:28,215 attack the services slice of the pie chart for, for law firms. 657 00:39:28,245 --> 00:39:33,675 So, Lev, do you, do you have a take on that in terms of 658 00:39:33,675 --> 00:39:35,685 like, is this a Trojan horse? 659 00:39:35,685 --> 00:39:37,215 You know, is AI a Trojan horse? 660 00:39:37,215 --> 00:39:39,975 Where we're I, I I, what are your thoughts? 661 00:39:39,975 --> 00:39:43,545 I, I'm shocked that you, uh, you, you're bringing it up. 662 00:39:43,965 --> 00:39:48,615 Ted, I think you might have read the Long series by Quentin Salt. 663 00:39:49,455 --> 00:39:50,085 Am I right? 664 00:39:51,105 --> 00:39:51,975 Uh, yeah. 665 00:39:52,035 --> 00:39:54,615 I, but I, I, I, I wrote about it before. 666 00:39:54,615 --> 00:39:55,365 He, he did. 667 00:39:55,365 --> 00:39:56,385 So, yes. 668 00:39:56,775 --> 00:40:00,975 You know what, no argument with you, but I've gotta say that. 669 00:40:01,155 --> 00:40:04,215 Dense, uh, series of posts. 670 00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:12,270 Really irked me way more than, uh, than than our, uh, you know, very polite 671 00:40:12,270 --> 00:40:14,910 exchange with ANSI on, on, on LinkedIn. 672 00:40:14,970 --> 00:40:19,995 I actually wanted to write a long reputation, uh, to, uh, to coincidence. 673 00:40:20,565 --> 00:40:21,135 Posts. 674 00:40:21,165 --> 00:40:27,825 Uh, and then I sort of realized by, by how long it would have to be and I 675 00:40:27,825 --> 00:40:29,925 couldn't justify the time expenditure. 676 00:40:30,015 --> 00:40:34,725 Let's not get into the sort of Trojan Trojan horse discussion too 677 00:40:34,725 --> 00:40:35,850 much because I think that will. 678 00:40:36,365 --> 00:40:38,464 Uh, take forever and we are almost out of time. 679 00:40:38,525 --> 00:40:43,865 What I will say is that there will undoubtedly be a change 680 00:40:43,895 --> 00:40:45,484 in the structure of revenue. 681 00:40:45,575 --> 00:40:47,944 There's like no doubt about it whatsoever. 682 00:40:48,005 --> 00:40:53,795 We are not going to be as lawyers, as law firms paid the same sort of 683 00:40:54,214 --> 00:40:58,155 exorbitant extraordinary amounts for some of the tasks that are. 684 00:40:58,875 --> 00:41:05,055 Frankly, easily automateable and we will need to find new sources of revenue and 685 00:41:05,055 --> 00:41:09,675 we will find new sources of revenue, and the, uh, systems will actually help 686 00:41:09,675 --> 00:41:14,835 us find new sources of revenue Very quickly, Ted, I do respectfully disagree 687 00:41:14,835 --> 00:41:18,165 with you that lawyers are sitting around waiting for the phone to ring. 688 00:41:18,315 --> 00:41:20,535 Never got work this way. 689 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,590 Even though I worked at the big firm and I could sort of rely on the, uh, reputation 690 00:41:25,590 --> 00:41:30,720 of the firm to a certain extent, that's, uh, no, no longer the case. 691 00:41:30,779 --> 00:41:33,870 And I'm not even talking about, say the plaintiff's bar. 692 00:41:34,350 --> 00:41:38,730 These guys are not called ambulance chasers for nothing. 693 00:41:39,180 --> 00:41:39,450 Right? 694 00:41:39,509 --> 00:41:44,549 They come up with very creative strategies on how to get clients, you know, in 695 00:41:44,549 --> 00:41:47,040 the mass towards, uh, in class actions. 696 00:41:47,549 --> 00:41:51,900 They literally develop theories and then they look for lead plaintiffs. 697 00:41:51,930 --> 00:41:57,000 They are the ones who kind of generate those lawsuits for 698 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,069 themselves so that they have the work. 699 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,110 So it's, once again, the profession is not a monolith and there is 700 00:42:04,170 --> 00:42:08,370 a lot that has always been, uh, happening in that differently, in 701 00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:10,020 different corners of the profession. 702 00:42:10,410 --> 00:42:11,730 And there will be more fair. 703 00:42:11,790 --> 00:42:14,010 Auntie, you, uh, you have any final thoughts? 704 00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:17,550 No, I mean, like, I refuse to make a prediction because 705 00:42:17,550 --> 00:42:19,140 it's going to be wrong anyway. 706 00:42:19,140 --> 00:42:21,000 If I have really no clue. 707 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,990 I'm just thinking like, what happens to those lawyers whose work is automated? 708 00:42:24,990 --> 00:42:29,520 Like do we have any retraining programs or do we just let them figure it out? 709 00:42:29,665 --> 00:42:33,510 Or what happens to these younger associates that can't maybe 710 00:42:33,510 --> 00:42:35,700 train on the same volume of. 711 00:42:37,155 --> 00:42:42,765 Of, uh, like grant legal work done done before that is very much needed to develop 712 00:42:42,765 --> 00:42:44,805 the strategic thinking like Len said. 713 00:42:45,765 --> 00:42:47,325 So I don't know the exact numbers. 714 00:42:47,385 --> 00:42:51,735 I don't know what kind of impact the AI will finally have, but I think that 715 00:42:51,735 --> 00:42:55,965 we should make realistic scenarios and then plan for those scenarios. 716 00:42:56,530 --> 00:43:00,350 And I think that it's just, you know, just, just, um. 717 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:08,640 Um, I'm agitated because I, I would love us to take those scenarios very seriously. 718 00:43:08,970 --> 00:43:11,700 That's maybe the final words that I wanna say. 719 00:43:12,330 --> 00:43:12,720 Yeah. 720 00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:13,230 Yeah. 721 00:43:13,230 --> 00:43:17,580 And it's, I think that's, that's a fair desire to have and. 722 00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:22,080 It's so much needs to change at, at law firms. 723 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,300 I think we would all three agree with that. 724 00:43:24,300 --> 00:43:26,730 I, I've actually had this debate with Lev. 725 00:43:26,730 --> 00:43:30,750 I think we have a little bit of a different take on like entity structure. 726 00:43:30,750 --> 00:43:35,250 I think the law firm partnership model is not well suited for what I think the 727 00:43:35,250 --> 00:43:39,240 industry's gonna look like in five to 10 years with, you know, significant. 728 00:43:39,645 --> 00:43:43,754 Capital investment and the need for technologists that you're gonna have to 729 00:43:44,085 --> 00:43:47,924 fight with Silicon Valley to get there, and they need, they're, you're gonna need 730 00:43:47,924 --> 00:43:49,964 stock options to, to fight that fight. 731 00:43:50,145 --> 00:43:55,634 You know, the billable model, our pricing model, the, uh, the way leaders 732 00:43:55,634 --> 00:43:59,295 elevate in law firms, which is by usually by being the best lawyer. 733 00:43:59,865 --> 00:44:04,995 Um, that's at least part of the criteria in many cases who's been most successful. 734 00:44:05,355 --> 00:44:09,045 So, yeah, a a lot needs to change and we don't really know. 735 00:44:09,795 --> 00:44:12,435 What the timeline, we don't know how long we have. 736 00:44:12,464 --> 00:44:17,235 We don't know how quickly this tech is going to mature and how 737 00:44:17,235 --> 00:44:22,365 these capabilities are going to impact how we deliver legal work. 738 00:44:22,365 --> 00:44:24,944 So this has been a fantastic conversation. 739 00:44:24,944 --> 00:44:27,105 You've both been complete, gentlemen. 740 00:44:27,134 --> 00:44:31,455 I knew you would, but it's been a pleasure sitting in between 741 00:44:31,455 --> 00:44:32,985 and moderating the debate. 742 00:44:32,985 --> 00:44:35,865 So, uh, thank you both very much for, for joining today. 743 00:44:36,180 --> 00:44:37,610 Thank, thank you for having us today. 744 00:44:37,620 --> 00:44:38,250 Thank you so much. 745 00:44:39,570 --> 00:44:39,960 Yes. 746 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:40,830 We'll talk soon. 747 00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:43,440 Thanks for listening to Legal Innovation Spotlight. 748 00:44:43,980 --> 00:44:47,460 If you found value in this chat, hit the subscribe button to be notified 749 00:44:47,460 --> 00:44:48,960 when we release new episodes. 750 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,140 We'd also really appreciate it if you could take a moment to rate 751 00:44:52,140 --> 00:44:54,780 us and leave us a review wherever you're listening right now. 752 00:44:55,380 --> 00:44:58,050 Your feedback helps us provide you with top-notch content. 00:00:03,090 Auntie Lev, welcome to Legal Innovation Spotlight. 2 00:00:03,330 --> 00:00:04,140 Thank you so much, Ted. 3 00:00:04,590 --> 00:00:05,430 Pleasure to be here. 4 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,010 Yeah, this is gonna be a good one. 5 00:00:08,310 --> 00:00:09,960 Hey, this is a new format. 6 00:00:09,990 --> 00:00:14,760 I'm over a hundred episodes in and I haven't, um, I haven't done this debate 7 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:20,280 style format, but I'm really looking forward to it because it is a very 8 00:00:20,790 --> 00:00:27,030 important topic and I think there's a lot of opinions on the topic and 9 00:00:27,060 --> 00:00:29,310 those opinions, or I guess who's right. 10 00:00:29,970 --> 00:00:34,230 Has big implications on how this transformation 11 00:00:34,290 --> 00:00:35,790 unfolds within the industry. 12 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:42,180 So we're gonna get to hear from both of you guys on your take, but before we do, 13 00:00:42,180 --> 00:00:45,660 why don't we get you introduced an why don't we, uh, why don't we start with you, 14 00:00:45,660 --> 00:00:47,190 who you are, what you do, where you do it. 15 00:00:47,370 --> 00:00:47,760 Sure. 16 00:00:48,180 --> 00:00:53,315 My name is Nan, originally original from Finland, living now in sunny es Spain. 17 00:00:54,075 --> 00:00:58,515 I run two Businesses Dot, which is a legal design firm and legit, 18 00:00:58,905 --> 00:01:04,455 that is an AI focused firm and I'm a lawyer, ex tech lawyer. 19 00:01:04,515 --> 00:01:09,165 And, uh, now exploring AI and legal design and, uh, little 20 00:01:09,165 --> 00:01:11,175 bit the future of the lawyers. 21 00:01:12,105 --> 00:01:15,195 Nice Lev, once again, a pleasure to be here, Ted. 22 00:01:15,645 --> 00:01:17,020 So my name is Lev Ton. 23 00:01:17,670 --> 00:01:23,070 I am a legal tech investor, formerly a lawyer, a partner at a Magic circle firm, 24 00:01:23,130 --> 00:01:25,290 and looking forward to this conversation. 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:33,060 Yeah, so for those that didn't have visibility to this, an had a 26 00:01:33,690 --> 00:01:38,250 conversation with Richard Trumans on his podcast, and he talked about 27 00:01:38,310 --> 00:01:40,950 strategic work versus regular. 28 00:01:41,355 --> 00:01:46,185 Legal work and I thought it was a really good dialogue and I think it makes 29 00:01:46,185 --> 00:01:52,935 people step back and take inventory, mental inventory of what kind of work 30 00:01:52,935 --> 00:02:00,525 do lawyers do you know how much of the day-to-day work of lawyers is automatable? 31 00:02:00,825 --> 00:02:07,455 I posted on LinkedIn not too long ago about a McKinsey article that 32 00:02:07,455 --> 00:02:10,515 estimated that with today's technology. 33 00:02:10,950 --> 00:02:17,220 70% of legal work is automatable with the caveat that 25% of that 34 00:02:17,220 --> 00:02:21,060 still requires human-like skills. 35 00:02:21,150 --> 00:02:23,460 So think of a human in the loop. 36 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:30,240 And what's interesting about the those two numbers is 70 minus 25 is 45. 37 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,820 The Goldman Sachs report that came out that got everybody's attention shortly 38 00:02:35,820 --> 00:02:42,030 after chat, DGPT, I think it was in spring of 23, estimated that I think 44% of legal 39 00:02:42,030 --> 00:02:44,880 work was subject to automation through ai. 40 00:02:45,300 --> 00:02:50,250 I think a lot of people, including myself, were skeptical of that number because, 41 00:02:50,820 --> 00:02:55,935 you know, in spring of 23 we were still dealing with like chat GPT-3 five. 42 00:02:57,105 --> 00:02:58,515 4.0 hadn't even come out yet. 43 00:02:58,515 --> 00:03:00,975 Or if it had, it was, it was still very new. 44 00:03:01,665 --> 00:03:09,825 And I think that the, the, the trajectory upon which the technology has advanced, 45 00:03:10,245 --> 00:03:16,845 especially with legal reasoning through, you know, like Chet's O one model and now 46 00:03:16,995 --> 00:03:22,095 inference time compute is just kind of a standard offering in all the major models. 47 00:03:22,125 --> 00:03:26,054 It really, I, I reassess constantly, like, okay, what. 48 00:03:26,475 --> 00:03:27,645 What is realistic? 49 00:03:28,155 --> 00:03:32,685 So auntie, maybe you can give us kind of a Reader's Digest version of 50 00:03:32,685 --> 00:03:37,035 the conversation you had with, with Richard about regular legal work. 51 00:03:37,275 --> 00:03:41,055 Yeah, and maybe, maybe something to say before that one. 52 00:03:41,235 --> 00:03:44,985 And thanks for having this conversation because I think that this is exactly the 53 00:03:44,985 --> 00:03:46,815 discussion our profession needs to have. 54 00:03:47,340 --> 00:03:49,980 And I want to start by saying something clearly. 55 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,010 I think that Lev and I actually want the same thing. 56 00:03:53,070 --> 00:03:57,209 We both want the future where lawyers are thriving, where we're not drowning 57 00:03:57,209 --> 00:04:01,410 in volume, where we can actually serve our clients at a very high level. 58 00:04:01,410 --> 00:04:03,660 So we kind of like agree on the goal. 59 00:04:04,350 --> 00:04:08,220 I think that we, we disagree is whether we're prepared to get 60 00:04:08,220 --> 00:04:09,674 there or whether we're moving. 61 00:04:10,460 --> 00:04:14,570 Fast enough, and I think we are running out of time and I think that we are 62 00:04:14,570 --> 00:04:20,240 not taking this change as seriously enough as we could as a profession. 63 00:04:20,420 --> 00:04:27,560 So my point was actually that that most illegal work isn't tedious work, but 64 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,330 it's not highly strategical either. 65 00:04:30,245 --> 00:04:32,240 It's normal regular work. 66 00:04:32,659 --> 00:04:35,960 And when we are automating that work away. 67 00:04:36,599 --> 00:04:39,905 We are also automating the strategic part of Workaway. 68 00:04:41,130 --> 00:04:46,050 There isn't a magical cue of highly iCal work waiting for us. 69 00:04:46,050 --> 00:04:50,700 And also I feel like strategic work is highly demanding. 70 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:56,130 It's very, very demanding physically, uh, and, and, and other ways Still, 71 00:04:56,250 --> 00:04:58,140 it's really, really difficult. 72 00:04:59,130 --> 00:04:59,940 Strategic work. 73 00:05:00,210 --> 00:05:04,530 So those were my kind of like points in my 15 minute run and 74 00:05:04,620 --> 00:05:09,090 Lev responded, uh, nicely and in LinkedIn and shared his view of, of 75 00:05:09,090 --> 00:05:10,830 this one, and that's why we're here. 76 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:17,730 Well, before we get Lev's perspective, can you give us some examples of like, 77 00:05:17,730 --> 00:05:21,510 what is, when you say regular legal work, how do you, how do you define 78 00:05:21,510 --> 00:05:23,970 that relative to strategic work? 79 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:24,330 Well. 80 00:05:24,719 --> 00:05:28,800 I think that Levi is right, that these two things are intertwined. 81 00:05:29,130 --> 00:05:32,700 That is very difficult to separate actual strategic work 82 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:34,710 from your normal legal work. 83 00:05:34,979 --> 00:05:36,300 But I'm a lawyer myself. 84 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:37,440 I've had a law firm. 85 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:40,800 I've supervised hundreds of lawyers in their work. 86 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,510 And I would say that most of the legal work is legal work. 87 00:05:45,810 --> 00:05:48,720 It's not highly strategic, but it's not boring either. 88 00:05:48,810 --> 00:05:52,350 And to be honest with you, I think that the most of the strategic work 89 00:05:52,650 --> 00:05:54,750 comes from client side of things. 90 00:05:55,050 --> 00:05:58,590 The business is driving the strategy and lawyers and their 91 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,170 there to help the businesses out. 92 00:06:01,170 --> 00:06:02,070 So I think that. 93 00:06:02,580 --> 00:06:07,050 Even if we would like to increase the amount of strategic work that we're 94 00:06:07,050 --> 00:06:11,940 doing, it might be difficult because there isn't a queue of strategic work available 95 00:06:12,270 --> 00:06:16,860 and it's still the business that drives the strategy, not perhaps the lawyers, 96 00:06:16,980 --> 00:06:21,450 although I love lawyers who are strategic in their work, and there are certain 97 00:06:21,450 --> 00:06:26,250 instances where lawyers can actually like add that kind of like strategic value. 98 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,220 It might be less than what we think. 99 00:06:29,370 --> 00:06:29,730 Yeah. 100 00:06:29,730 --> 00:06:34,800 And I, this is, you hear a lot of talk about Java's paradox, right? 101 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:40,020 Which is the concept of as something becomes cheaper, there becomes an increase 102 00:06:40,020 --> 00:06:43,620 in demand for that product or service. 103 00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:48,300 And I have, you know, I have some questions about, we all would agree 104 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:50,070 that we live in a finite world. 105 00:06:50,370 --> 00:06:56,220 Nothing is infinite on planet Earth and what to what extent is. 106 00:06:56,745 --> 00:07:05,115 Demand able to fill the gap with what is going to be displaced by technology. 107 00:07:05,295 --> 00:07:06,945 And that's a really important question. 108 00:07:06,945 --> 00:07:12,585 So this is a, an extremely important conversation, and I don't think any of 109 00:07:12,585 --> 00:07:17,770 us have a crystal ball or a magic wand and can say exactly where that line will. 110 00:07:20,625 --> 00:07:24,885 We all know there's a ton of unmet demand, both on the consumer side and 111 00:07:24,885 --> 00:07:29,775 in the commercial world that will to some extent offset what is displaced. 112 00:07:30,164 --> 00:07:33,914 But you know, how that balances out I think is a very good discussion. 113 00:07:34,515 --> 00:07:40,275 So Lev, um, what is your take on Anti's position about regular 114 00:07:40,275 --> 00:07:43,245 legal work versus strategic work? 115 00:07:44,130 --> 00:07:47,970 Well, let me start by saying that I actually agree with Ansy. 116 00:07:48,060 --> 00:07:49,410 Not much of a debate is it? 117 00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:51,960 I agree that we want the same thing, and I agree. 118 00:07:52,260 --> 00:07:58,500 I think that we are seeing the same future, but perhaps Ansys view 119 00:07:58,500 --> 00:08:00,510 is a bit more dramatic than mine. 120 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,000 Let me sort of explain what I mean. 121 00:08:03,420 --> 00:08:09,420 Um, I think that there is no doubt that artificial intelligence 122 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,460 is a big game changer. 123 00:08:11,789 --> 00:08:12,120 Right. 124 00:08:12,450 --> 00:08:18,510 In my mind it's kind of like Prometheus giving fire to the world and there 125 00:08:18,750 --> 00:08:24,840 could be a lot of hand wringing about, well, what are we gonna do with fire? 126 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:29,370 And fire is dangerous and uh, we can get burned, we can get 127 00:08:29,370 --> 00:08:31,979 singed, and so on and so forth. 128 00:08:32,699 --> 00:08:37,949 But the fact remains fire is here and artificial intelligence is that fire. 129 00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:40,110 It's probably the first technology. 130 00:08:40,724 --> 00:08:46,454 In my lifetime, definitely that, uh, is capable of doing a 131 00:08:46,454 --> 00:08:48,405 meaningful share of legal work. 132 00:08:48,645 --> 00:08:56,564 And whether it's 44%, 45%, or uh, 20% I think remains to be seen. 133 00:08:56,984 --> 00:09:01,635 And this discussion is helpful, but I think that the baseline that we need to 134 00:09:01,905 --> 00:09:05,114 sort of adhere to is it's here, right? 135 00:09:05,175 --> 00:09:07,064 This is the technology that is actually here. 136 00:09:07,650 --> 00:09:11,130 So now with that out of the way, I will say that 137 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:18,660 yes, a lot of work that lawyers do is a mix. 138 00:09:19,020 --> 00:09:23,760 Uh, it's a mix of higher level thinking and routine stuff, but there 139 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:25,920 is a lot of routine stuff in there. 140 00:09:27,194 --> 00:09:32,775 I'm, as I was preparing myself for this conversation, I, um, I was thinking back 141 00:09:32,775 --> 00:09:39,194 to when I was a junior associate and I was preparing, let's say a signing, right. 142 00:09:39,344 --> 00:09:45,525 Uh, and those of us that are lawyers will know that you need to 143 00:09:45,525 --> 00:09:48,194 print out all the signature pages. 144 00:09:48,194 --> 00:09:50,055 You need to put them in folders. 145 00:09:50,594 --> 00:09:54,224 You need to make sure that there is enough signature pages 146 00:09:54,224 --> 00:09:56,204 for all the parties it sounds. 147 00:09:56,625 --> 00:09:57,705 So straightforward. 148 00:09:58,215 --> 00:10:04,150 The problem is when you are doing all of this, it basically gems up your bandwidth. 149 00:10:05,069 --> 00:10:08,010 Right, you need to go to the printer. 150 00:10:08,069 --> 00:10:09,990 Uh, somebody might pick up your print. 151 00:10:10,350 --> 00:10:12,360 The printer jams, all of this. 152 00:10:12,569 --> 00:10:14,189 It takes hours and hours. 153 00:10:14,220 --> 00:10:17,610 If it's a big enough signing, multiple parties, you need to make 154 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:21,000 sure that all the right versions of documents are in place and so on. 155 00:10:21,060 --> 00:10:25,589 And this is not, it's not strategic, it's purely clerical. 156 00:10:25,860 --> 00:10:29,430 I'm not going to miss it once you know DocuSign and appeared 157 00:10:29,430 --> 00:10:32,010 and reduced that kind of burden. 158 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:40,650 I'm gonna miss on Ansys point about sort of strategic work being difficult. 159 00:10:41,035 --> 00:10:45,840 I, I think that was the point, uh, that I originally picked up, uh, and, and, 160 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:51,930 and wanted to oppose it, is what we kind of came to the profession to deal with. 161 00:10:52,380 --> 00:10:52,770 Right. 162 00:10:52,860 --> 00:10:53,760 We actually. 163 00:10:55,515 --> 00:10:58,470 Help, help the business formulate the strategy. 164 00:10:58,470 --> 00:10:59,699 We want to refine it. 165 00:11:00,449 --> 00:11:05,069 Now, I'm an M and a lawyer, so a lot of people come in and they just say, 166 00:11:05,069 --> 00:11:08,370 well, we have this acquisition in mind. 167 00:11:08,610 --> 00:11:14,010 And as we talk with those clients, as we have our scoping discussions, 168 00:11:14,010 --> 00:11:19,230 our structure and discussions, their view of that deal is refined. 169 00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:22,770 They understand better why they're buying it. 170 00:11:22,829 --> 00:11:27,360 And maybe in some cases they come to the realization it's the wrong deal for them. 171 00:11:28,079 --> 00:11:28,410 Right? 172 00:11:28,439 --> 00:11:31,829 They kind of walking through all of those things. 173 00:11:31,829 --> 00:11:34,890 They um, they're like, what are we buying? 174 00:11:35,010 --> 00:11:35,969 What are we paying for? 175 00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:37,230 Are we paying too much? 176 00:11:37,319 --> 00:11:41,100 And that's, uh, that's the kind of thing. 177 00:11:41,250 --> 00:11:42,120 Those are the kinds of. 178 00:11:42,675 --> 00:11:48,225 Workflows that we genuinely need to be preserving to the extent 179 00:11:48,225 --> 00:11:50,145 that preservation is even possible. 180 00:11:50,205 --> 00:11:53,715 That's the, uh, that's what I think about when I'm thinking 181 00:11:53,715 --> 00:11:55,665 about strategic work, right? 182 00:11:55,755 --> 00:12:00,585 Guiding clients in refining and achieving their goals. 183 00:12:00,675 --> 00:12:03,015 So, Ansy, do you, do you agree with Lev's? 184 00:12:03,435 --> 00:12:04,005 Assessment. 185 00:12:04,275 --> 00:12:08,145 Yeah, I, I hate that we agree on so many things because it ruins the debate 186 00:12:08,205 --> 00:12:12,525 man, and Le lemme write that, that the volume blocks strategic thinking. 187 00:12:13,035 --> 00:12:16,125 And I agree with that completely, but this is where we differ. 188 00:12:16,365 --> 00:12:21,285 I think that you are seeing that removing that volume creates space 189 00:12:21,285 --> 00:12:23,145 that the strategic work will fill. 190 00:12:23,805 --> 00:12:28,275 And I think it just creates less total work because again, strategic 191 00:12:28,275 --> 00:12:32,100 work comes from client demand, not from lawyer availability. 192 00:12:33,165 --> 00:12:36,435 When I'm not fixing the printer, of course I'm saving my own time, but 193 00:12:36,464 --> 00:12:40,725 that doesn't necessarily mean that the work magically expands because 194 00:12:40,725 --> 00:12:42,915 I'm not fixing the printer anymore. 195 00:12:42,944 --> 00:12:48,165 And I think this brings to my, to my other point, view that it concentrates also 196 00:12:48,165 --> 00:12:50,895 very easily strategic work concentrates. 197 00:12:50,954 --> 00:12:55,935 If you look at any firm structure where we have non-equity partners or 198 00:12:55,995 --> 00:13:00,285 associates that aren't making partner, it's not because they're bad lawyers, 199 00:13:00,285 --> 00:13:02,444 but because there is a limited. 200 00:13:03,344 --> 00:13:07,425 Amount of truly strategic work, and it always has been like this. 201 00:13:07,844 --> 00:13:11,865 And maybe to con continue, you know, the, the eight hours of 202 00:13:11,865 --> 00:13:14,265 strategic work, uh, discussion. 203 00:13:14,475 --> 00:13:15,225 I don't know. 204 00:13:15,285 --> 00:13:20,385 For me, high stakes decision making is very exhausting, and I don't know 205 00:13:20,385 --> 00:13:25,425 if you can sustain it for, I don't know, 2000 billable hours per year. 206 00:13:26,069 --> 00:13:30,719 So even if strategic work expands, there is a limit of how 207 00:13:30,719 --> 00:13:32,579 any person can handle that one. 208 00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:37,920 Maybe we just won't need as many lawyers and we're not really talking about that. 209 00:13:38,459 --> 00:13:43,319 Lev, you chose m and a knowing that it would be stressful. 210 00:13:43,469 --> 00:13:43,859 Right? 211 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,670 And I fully believe that, but that's also a little bit of 212 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:49,439 like a selection bias, right? 213 00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:49,920 So. 214 00:13:51,540 --> 00:13:55,290 Some, you know, most lawyers don't choose their practice area based 215 00:13:55,290 --> 00:13:57,690 on desire for high stakes work. 216 00:13:57,810 --> 00:14:02,880 Maybe they choose on what job is available, what paid well, and uh, the 217 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:08,400 idea that all lawyers would, you know, that they would secretly want the bet. 218 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,100 The company kind of stress is maybe. 219 00:14:11,474 --> 00:14:13,064 You know, because it's coming from you. 220 00:14:13,064 --> 00:14:14,295 It's coming from a winners. 221 00:14:14,354 --> 00:14:15,704 Winners circle a little bit. 222 00:14:15,704 --> 00:14:19,755 You self-selected into it, but not every lawyer is like that. 223 00:14:19,875 --> 00:14:22,995 You know, half of lawyers are less than average. 224 00:14:23,234 --> 00:14:23,535 Right. 225 00:14:23,535 --> 00:14:27,464 So not, not like every lawyer wants that kind of stress. 226 00:14:27,525 --> 00:14:30,255 Even if we would, would have have something like that. 227 00:14:30,314 --> 00:14:33,074 So those are my kind of like counterpoints to this one. 228 00:14:34,005 --> 00:14:35,354 Lev, do you have a response to that? 229 00:14:35,354 --> 00:14:36,645 I do, I do. 230 00:14:36,645 --> 00:14:36,974 Ted. 231 00:14:37,365 --> 00:14:40,050 I think that we might be, once again. 232 00:14:40,860 --> 00:14:42,810 Confusing the terms a little bit. 233 00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:47,190 When I say sort of strategic, when I'm talking about strategic work, 234 00:14:47,370 --> 00:14:52,380 I am not necessarily talking about all the lawyers getting involved 235 00:14:52,380 --> 00:14:54,450 with multi-billion dollar mergers. 236 00:14:54,450 --> 00:14:59,940 Strategic work is ACT is the constant improvement, right? 237 00:14:59,970 --> 00:15:06,540 It's bringing more value, concentrated value to the client, right? 238 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:07,800 Instead of just. 239 00:15:08,205 --> 00:15:10,725 Repeating the same things over and over again. 240 00:15:10,725 --> 00:15:12,345 The safe ones, right? 241 00:15:12,435 --> 00:15:16,695 You can think of it as really understanding the sector, really 242 00:15:16,695 --> 00:15:20,565 understanding the product, not just being driven by precedent, 243 00:15:20,565 --> 00:15:22,185 actually going beyond precedent. 244 00:15:23,265 --> 00:15:28,395 A lot of your time is spent on minute clerical tasks, then you 245 00:15:28,395 --> 00:15:30,555 don't have the time to do it right. 246 00:15:30,555 --> 00:15:35,595 You need to, you are constantly in that grind and the there 247 00:15:35,595 --> 00:15:40,905 is endless, almost a limitless possibility of improving what we do. 248 00:15:41,175 --> 00:15:45,405 I went through your LinkedIn ansi and I saw you at some point 249 00:15:45,405 --> 00:15:48,615 blasting legal tech founders for. 250 00:15:50,070 --> 00:15:54,480 Using basically standardized terms of service, something which is 251 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,070 very similar to whatever you, you are going to see in B two P SaaS. 252 00:15:59,070 --> 00:15:59,370 Right. 253 00:15:59,460 --> 00:16:03,900 And your, your point was a perfectly noble and valid point, right? 254 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:05,970 With we need to do better. 255 00:16:06,330 --> 00:16:06,750 Right? 256 00:16:06,810 --> 00:16:11,700 We are, uh, after all the future of legal, whoever's building legal 257 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:13,290 tax should be future of legal. 258 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:19,260 But I am conscious of the fact, I'm cognizant of the fact that all these legal 259 00:16:19,260 --> 00:16:25,770 tech f uh, founders, they are putting out 10,000 fires every single day, right? 260 00:16:26,190 --> 00:16:29,700 They have to concentrate on the product, they have to concentrate on the sales. 261 00:16:30,330 --> 00:16:31,950 They don't have the time. 262 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:38,670 If we had unlimited time, we would, uh, sort of fix all the 263 00:16:38,730 --> 00:16:41,640 inefficiencies, all of the e rudiments. 264 00:16:42,075 --> 00:16:47,175 That the profession is plagued with, and as it as it stands, we, we can't right 265 00:16:47,235 --> 00:16:52,485 now on your point about concentration, the truth of the matter is it's 266 00:16:52,485 --> 00:16:54,765 not as concentrated as some people. 267 00:16:54,765 --> 00:16:55,635 I think imagine 268 00:16:58,095 --> 00:17:02,985 there have been numerous times when my associates would come 269 00:17:02,985 --> 00:17:04,335 to me and they would say. 270 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,859 This is the standard provision in our precedent. 271 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,030 Why are we using it? 272 00:17:09,150 --> 00:17:11,040 Doesn't it make you know? 273 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,480 Does it actually make sense? 274 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,180 Could we improve it when they have the time? 275 00:17:15,180 --> 00:17:20,220 When lawyers have the time, they can look critically at what the flows 276 00:17:20,220 --> 00:17:26,520 are, what the actual work is, and that's when they really improve. 277 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,850 That's when the clients and the society at large. 278 00:17:30,750 --> 00:17:32,730 Is getting a much better result. 279 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,290 Let me stop here. 280 00:17:34,290 --> 00:17:38,460 And yeah, I think the, your final point was on selection bias. 281 00:17:38,490 --> 00:17:42,180 I think the first two points, my responses on the first two points, 282 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:44,250 sort of address your point, right? 283 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:50,310 You don't have to be in a high pressure environment to wanna improve the 284 00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:52,170 work product that you're delivering. 285 00:17:52,620 --> 00:17:55,590 Whatever you do, it doesn't really matter if you're a divorce lawyer, 286 00:17:55,590 --> 00:17:57,570 if you're doing car accidents. 287 00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:02,460 These are all standardized things, but you can actually reflect on what 288 00:18:02,460 --> 00:18:08,670 it is you do and you can make major improvements in the way you deliver the 289 00:18:08,670 --> 00:18:13,110 work product to the client in what you actually deliver, in how you're running 290 00:18:13,110 --> 00:18:14,760 your firm, and so on and so forth. 291 00:18:14,850 --> 00:18:20,905 My point is legal tech ought to make the profession a lot more efficient. 292 00:18:23,615 --> 00:18:27,810 An what's, what's your beef with, uh, SaaS terms of service? 293 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:30,210 Nothing. 294 00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:35,220 I'm not trying to dunk on vendors, but I'm just saying like, if you are. 295 00:18:36,225 --> 00:18:39,525 Having a legal tech tool that is very powerful, such as Harvey 296 00:18:39,585 --> 00:18:43,695 or Allura, maybe you should use it on your own terms of service. 297 00:18:43,845 --> 00:18:45,345 It doesn't take that much time. 298 00:18:45,345 --> 00:18:45,705 Right. 299 00:18:46,215 --> 00:18:49,815 It's, it's, it's super complicated or complex. 300 00:18:49,845 --> 00:18:54,645 I'm saying that what I'm not seeing these vendors are the things that 301 00:18:54,825 --> 00:18:57,075 Liv says that we would improve. 302 00:18:57,735 --> 00:18:58,514 The services. 303 00:18:58,575 --> 00:19:02,024 I'm seeing a lot of efficiency games, games, but not a lot 304 00:19:02,024 --> 00:19:03,615 of like true improvements. 305 00:19:03,945 --> 00:19:09,375 And again, I'm not attacking vendors, but I'm saying that we can't outsource 306 00:19:09,825 --> 00:19:11,774 our professional future to them. 307 00:19:11,925 --> 00:19:13,544 It's not their responsibility. 308 00:19:14,445 --> 00:19:17,310 That's our responsibility, not their respons. 309 00:19:18,450 --> 00:19:22,830 Maybe, you know, I, I want to come back to the URA commercial. 310 00:19:22,830 --> 00:19:23,910 Have you seen that one? 311 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:24,360 Maybe. 312 00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:28,500 Maybe you have, if you haven't, maybe we can, we can link, link to you 313 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:35,010 to it where the lawyer of the year forwards everything to AI tools, right? 314 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,980 They have a nice, cool commercial where you have like a lawyer of the 315 00:19:37,980 --> 00:19:43,080 year who does a lot of work with AI and then forwards all the questions. 316 00:19:43,935 --> 00:19:49,965 She gets from the senior partner to AI and kind of like PS the fools in the 317 00:19:49,965 --> 00:19:54,735 data room or who are fixing the printer because they're doing manual labor, 318 00:19:54,735 --> 00:19:56,475 they're doing traditional legal work. 319 00:19:56,564 --> 00:20:00,915 Like let said, fixing printer takes a lot of your time and it's meant to be fun. 320 00:20:00,915 --> 00:20:04,215 I know I don't want to be like too critical about it, but it 321 00:20:04,215 --> 00:20:06,165 kind of like shows the worldview. 322 00:20:06,165 --> 00:20:09,465 You know, you divide to winners and losers, people who use 323 00:20:09,524 --> 00:20:10,699 ai, people who don't use. 324 00:20:11,415 --> 00:20:16,005 And the successful lawyer isn't doing much of a strategic work. 325 00:20:16,185 --> 00:20:19,245 She's just lightly prompting the AI tools. 326 00:20:19,785 --> 00:20:25,395 So I'm not seeing that kind of future where the legal work could actually 327 00:20:25,395 --> 00:20:29,625 be improved, and I'm definitely not seeing that kind of future. 328 00:20:31,050 --> 00:20:36,390 Legal, uh, tech vendors perspective that they would help lawyers to increase 329 00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:40,950 the strategic work that we're doing and might have a good count, counterpoint 330 00:20:40,955 --> 00:20:44,190 to, to that one, but I don't think that that's their responsibility. 331 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,920 They are there to disrupt the industry. 332 00:20:47,264 --> 00:20:52,695 Not to look out for us not to care about our professional future. 333 00:20:52,695 --> 00:20:56,834 That is our job, and that's why I feel such a sense of urgency. 334 00:20:56,834 --> 00:21:01,215 That's why I'm trying to speak out a little bit, because I think that the time 335 00:21:01,215 --> 00:21:03,435 is running out and we have to take action. 336 00:21:03,435 --> 00:21:04,875 We can't be so reactive. 337 00:21:04,875 --> 00:21:09,314 We actually have to take action and not trust so much vendors. 338 00:21:10,845 --> 00:21:16,365 Us, even if we would like to do more strategic work, we have to be proactive 339 00:21:16,365 --> 00:21:18,315 in getting that strategic work. 340 00:21:20,025 --> 00:21:23,955 Halfway through the podcast and this has been really good dialogue, but 341 00:21:24,315 --> 00:21:29,415 I want to, I wanna move on to the topic of urgency because I think 342 00:21:29,415 --> 00:21:31,155 it is an extremely important one. 343 00:21:31,245 --> 00:21:32,415 I have a take on this. 344 00:21:32,445 --> 00:21:38,205 I'm more in auntie's camp about the speed at which, and I think love you 345 00:21:38,205 --> 00:21:42,165 and I may have talked about this when you were on the podcast last, I think 346 00:21:42,165 --> 00:21:48,555 the industry is moving too slow and I, I, I think that the challenge is that. 347 00:21:48,899 --> 00:21:51,990 Much of what has to change in law firms is culture. 348 00:21:52,649 --> 00:21:54,149 It's not buying a new tool. 349 00:21:54,389 --> 00:21:58,889 And yes, you need to deploy change management sound, change 350 00:21:58,889 --> 00:22:01,949 management processes, and invest in change management. 351 00:22:02,129 --> 00:22:07,290 But the hardest part right now, I've seen this here in the us, there's been 352 00:22:07,290 --> 00:22:12,780 a wave of McKinsey and Bain consultants partners who have left and come into 353 00:22:12,780 --> 00:22:15,120 the legal world, and they're frustrated. 354 00:22:15,450 --> 00:22:20,340 Some of them are friends of mine who say, we were promised 355 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,390 that there was an appetite for change and a sense of urgency. 356 00:22:24,780 --> 00:22:27,630 And there is at the leadership level, right? 357 00:22:27,630 --> 00:22:33,450 I think that the ex comms understand the implications of this transformation 358 00:22:33,540 --> 00:22:37,620 and the need to move quickly, and I think at the lower ranks, the 359 00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:41,370 junior associates, I'm sorry, the junior partners, the associates, 360 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,650 the younger generation also get it. 361 00:22:44,804 --> 00:22:49,215 It's in the middle where I think that culture is deeply embedded, 362 00:22:49,215 --> 00:22:52,064 the culture of resistance to change. 363 00:22:52,395 --> 00:22:56,685 This has been the status quo in legal for as long as I've been around. 364 00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:58,740 And, and likely much longer. 365 00:22:58,890 --> 00:23:01,320 And culture takes a really long time to change. 366 00:23:01,379 --> 00:23:07,890 And I'm seeing leaders get frustrated who were brought in to effect change and some 367 00:23:07,890 --> 00:23:12,750 of them are moving on or some of them will be soon and we gotta get it together. 368 00:23:12,750 --> 00:23:17,460 We gotta get everybody, including, you know, this is another area of 369 00:23:17,790 --> 00:23:19,140 that doesn't get discussed enough. 370 00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:20,430 I call it deep admin. 371 00:23:21,030 --> 00:23:24,570 In the admin functions at law firms, the business of law functions. 372 00:23:25,004 --> 00:23:30,735 HR tech, knowledge management, marketing leaders have been selected, hand 373 00:23:30,735 --> 00:23:35,175 chosen because of their resistance to change by law firm leaders. 374 00:23:35,535 --> 00:23:37,275 And now you're gonna say, Hey, guess what? 375 00:23:37,395 --> 00:23:38,565 Everything needs to change. 376 00:23:38,985 --> 00:23:40,905 That's, that is gonna take a lot of time. 377 00:23:41,115 --> 00:23:42,465 It's gonna take a lot of effort. 378 00:23:42,735 --> 00:23:47,175 That deep admin function is going to move very slowly. 379 00:23:47,175 --> 00:23:49,520 So it's not just the practice, it's the entire. 380 00:23:50,504 --> 00:23:54,554 Broadly, so I don't think we're moving fast enough either because cultural 381 00:23:54,554 --> 00:23:59,564 change is so hard to implement, and I'm already seeing signs of, uh, 382 00:23:59,564 --> 00:24:05,235 change agents that were brought in from big names to push in that direction. 383 00:24:05,625 --> 00:24:10,514 Lev, what's your, what's your response to how swiftly or not the industry's moving? 384 00:24:12,015 --> 00:24:14,475 I think we all have our views on this. 385 00:24:14,565 --> 00:24:19,030 Uh, Ted, and actually, my, my first thought is, I'm not sure you, are, you, 386 00:24:19,035 --> 00:24:20,835 you, you're completely aligned with Ansy. 387 00:24:22,290 --> 00:24:25,605 Uh, I I think that now we aren't disagreeing, right? 388 00:24:25,605 --> 00:24:25,845 Yeah. 389 00:24:25,845 --> 00:24:28,755 I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm kind of wondering whether Ansy would sort 390 00:24:28,755 --> 00:24:31,575 of agree with, uh, the need to, um. 391 00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:37,230 Plunge headlong into the change without sort of, uh, assessing what 392 00:24:37,230 --> 00:24:39,300 this is going to do to the industry. 393 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,670 But, um, I'll share some anecdotal evidence and obviously you have 394 00:24:44,670 --> 00:24:48,210 your vein and McKinsey, people who are disappointed and the 395 00:24:48,210 --> 00:24:49,890 industry is not moving fast enough. 396 00:24:50,445 --> 00:24:55,605 I'll tell you that yesterday I was speaking to one of my co-investors and, 397 00:24:55,635 --> 00:24:57,945 uh, he's a partner at a big law firm. 398 00:24:58,004 --> 00:25:01,845 And he said to me that right at that very moment, uh, you know, what he 399 00:25:01,845 --> 00:25:06,584 has on his computer screen is two tabs of leg and, uh, and Gemini, 400 00:25:07,274 --> 00:25:09,314 uh, he's more or less my intake. 401 00:25:10,125 --> 00:25:16,574 Three days ago I spoke to a partner, uh, at a major Canadian law firm, um, 402 00:25:16,814 --> 00:25:19,365 who is older than me, probably a bit. 403 00:25:19,770 --> 00:25:24,030 At, at least 10 years older, um, has been in the profession for 404 00:25:24,030 --> 00:25:26,460 30 years as opposed to 20 years. 405 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:32,040 Uh, and when I asked him about legal tech, his response was, six 406 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,100 months ago, I would've scoffed at your question and I would've 407 00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:37,560 said, legal tech is not necessary. 408 00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:40,980 It's, it's all a toy for our leadership, as you put it, Ted. 409 00:25:41,310 --> 00:25:42,990 So the leadership recognizes it. 410 00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:44,550 Rank and file don't. 411 00:25:44,610 --> 00:25:46,050 Now I use Harvey. 412 00:25:47,385 --> 00:25:49,190 All day, every day, day. 413 00:25:49,195 --> 00:25:52,095 In fact, I've got a separate monitor in my office. 414 00:25:52,095 --> 00:25:55,095 The third one that just has heart, right? 415 00:25:55,215 --> 00:25:58,725 And I think that is healthy, right? 416 00:25:58,785 --> 00:26:00,525 I actually think this is healthy. 417 00:26:00,915 --> 00:26:05,805 One of my key observations about the profession is the profession 418 00:26:05,805 --> 00:26:07,635 was never a monolith, right? 419 00:26:07,845 --> 00:26:12,105 It was never uniform in the way it approached gearing. 420 00:26:12,660 --> 00:26:13,830 Approach technology. 421 00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:17,250 It approached the need for international expansion, what, 422 00:26:17,250 --> 00:26:18,480 whatever you name it, right? 423 00:26:18,690 --> 00:26:20,970 Every, every law firm is different. 424 00:26:21,060 --> 00:26:24,420 Culture is not just the way people talk in the corridors. 425 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,650 It's also about the vision, who we wanna be as a law firm. 426 00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:34,950 And what's happening right now is firms are experimenting, trying to figure 427 00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:40,440 out how much technology they wanna embed in their work streams, right? 428 00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:44,250 You know, some people will complain. 429 00:26:44,250 --> 00:26:45,150 It's too slow. 430 00:26:45,330 --> 00:26:46,530 Some people will complain. 431 00:26:46,530 --> 00:26:47,490 It's too fast. 432 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:53,070 It's just not a, uh, sort of, it's not unitary. 433 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,320 The profession is not unitary. 434 00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:57,385 Some corners of the profession will move faster. 435 00:26:57,455 --> 00:26:57,745 Some. 436 00:26:59,084 --> 00:27:02,114 And they, they will be driven by, you know, to move faster. 437 00:27:02,205 --> 00:27:04,064 Ultimately, it's all about the clients. 438 00:27:04,064 --> 00:27:05,685 It's all about the economics. 439 00:27:05,685 --> 00:27:11,054 We've seen a lot of adoption of legal tech in the personal injury space. 440 00:27:11,054 --> 00:27:11,655 For instance. 441 00:27:11,685 --> 00:27:13,185 It makes sense, right? 442 00:27:13,544 --> 00:27:18,794 They, for them, efficiency is the lifeblood of what they do at 443 00:27:18,794 --> 00:27:20,564 the top level of the profession. 444 00:27:21,524 --> 00:27:24,449 If you were doing multi-billion dollar mergers and you get paid. 445 00:27:25,409 --> 00:27:28,470 50 million, a hundred million to a certain extent. 446 00:27:28,530 --> 00:27:33,030 Uh, clients are fee insensitive at those levels. 447 00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:34,649 You don't want to rock that boat. 448 00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:37,350 You don't want to disrupt yourself too much. 449 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:41,460 And even at that level, you are seeing some firms that are very. 450 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:42,440 Progressive. 451 00:27:42,740 --> 00:27:46,430 And they're, uh, doing their, you know, they have their own incubators. 452 00:27:46,430 --> 00:27:48,409 They are developing their own products. 453 00:27:48,470 --> 00:27:51,920 Some of them are public about it, some of them are not so public about it. 454 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,629 I, I, I know that firms are developing stuff in secret and stealth, uh, using 455 00:27:56,629 --> 00:27:58,670 their proprietary data and so on. 456 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,110 So I don't think the right question is to the right question to ask is, 457 00:28:03,170 --> 00:28:04,820 is the profession moving fast enough? 458 00:28:04,879 --> 00:28:07,820 There is no profession in that sense, right. 459 00:28:08,205 --> 00:28:10,754 The profession is fragmented. 460 00:28:10,875 --> 00:28:13,305 There is a And you, you said that yourself, Ted, right? 461 00:28:13,935 --> 00:28:17,535 It's highly fragmented and people will have different approaches to this problem. 462 00:28:17,595 --> 00:28:17,955 Yeah. 463 00:28:18,045 --> 00:28:21,315 Uh, the question is, are the, are the people with the slow approaches 464 00:28:21,315 --> 00:28:23,055 going to exist in five years? 465 00:28:23,055 --> 00:28:28,305 That's a question I have, but Auntie, what is your, do we disagree on on that? 466 00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:29,475 Do you have a different perspective? 467 00:28:30,435 --> 00:28:31,365 Not necessarily. 468 00:28:31,365 --> 00:28:34,965 My perspective is a little bit different because we have adoption 469 00:28:34,965 --> 00:28:39,495 metrics and maybe like preparation metrics, and I think that there is a 470 00:28:39,495 --> 00:28:41,565 difference between these two things. 471 00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:43,650 How would define that? 472 00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:47,460 One is like adoption, is buying tools, learning to use, 473 00:28:47,460 --> 00:28:49,470 then somebody using Harvey. 474 00:28:49,950 --> 00:28:54,420 And preparation is like restructuring how we train lawyers 475 00:28:54,420 --> 00:28:56,520 or how we define our own value. 476 00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:59,940 And there is a huge difference between those two things. 477 00:29:00,330 --> 00:29:05,220 And of course, it's really important that we invest time in knowing 478 00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:09,990 how to use these tools to train our staff to become AI literate. 479 00:29:10,020 --> 00:29:10,980 I even have a book out on. 480 00:29:12,255 --> 00:29:16,695 So I see the value of people training on these tools, but I'm just thinking 481 00:29:16,695 --> 00:29:21,435 like, okay, if strategic work is our future, if that's where we're heading, 482 00:29:21,855 --> 00:29:23,895 where is the strategic training? 483 00:29:24,375 --> 00:29:28,065 You mentioned left some impressive numbers like robes and Greg giving 484 00:29:28,065 --> 00:29:32,595 first years 20% of their time for AI work, and that's plenty of hours. 485 00:29:33,045 --> 00:29:35,625 But what are these people learning in those hours? 486 00:29:36,314 --> 00:29:39,554 Are they learning to write better prompts or are they using 487 00:29:39,554 --> 00:29:41,385 to use the tools efficiently? 488 00:29:41,415 --> 00:29:44,324 Or are they learning to think strategically? 489 00:29:44,594 --> 00:29:49,965 Are they, I don't know, learning like negotiation psychology or developing like 490 00:29:49,965 --> 00:29:52,875 business acumen or industry expertise? 491 00:29:53,445 --> 00:29:55,935 I would like to see these two tracks. 492 00:29:56,475 --> 00:29:59,564 You know, maybe they will combine next at some point. 493 00:30:00,075 --> 00:30:05,385 So it wouldn't only be about the AI adoption, about how to prompt or how to 494 00:30:05,385 --> 00:30:10,635 use more efficiently these tools, but also how could we raise the bar a little bit? 495 00:30:10,695 --> 00:30:16,485 How could we come up with better legal outcomes or how could we focus more 496 00:30:16,485 --> 00:30:20,595 strategic thinking so that we could actually pull more strategic work in? 497 00:30:20,685 --> 00:30:21,585 Do you see my drift? 498 00:30:21,645 --> 00:30:25,245 That that I see like the changes happening on two, two different checks. 499 00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:29,310 You need to learn to crawl before you learn to walk. 500 00:30:29,310 --> 00:30:29,580 Right. 501 00:30:29,670 --> 00:30:33,600 Uh, and and I, and I think that's just something that in this environment 502 00:30:33,660 --> 00:30:38,370 where the promise is sort of boundless, the promise of AI is boundless. 503 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,240 People kind of tend to forget that you need to learn the first principles 504 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,420 and you need to, if you're, if you're learning to play chess, you 505 00:30:45,420 --> 00:30:47,040 need to understand how pieces move. 506 00:30:47,545 --> 00:30:49,765 You need to understand the setup of the chessboard. 507 00:30:49,855 --> 00:30:53,545 I don't think that the first year associates who were provided with 508 00:30:53,545 --> 00:30:58,225 that time allowance that counts as billable are learning human psychology 509 00:30:58,225 --> 00:31:03,505 and how you frame certain things and negotiations and those kinds of things. 510 00:31:03,895 --> 00:31:06,565 They are learning the basics of. 511 00:31:07,469 --> 00:31:08,760 That would be my guess. 512 00:31:09,149 --> 00:31:14,250 They are being prepared to be very, very efficient with the tasks at 513 00:31:14,250 --> 00:31:19,439 their level so that they actually can become better lawyers faster. 514 00:31:20,580 --> 00:31:26,760 And I, I've already offered this analogy, uh, several times and if you guys have 515 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,010 read my posts, you will have seen it. 516 00:31:29,129 --> 00:31:30,870 Uh, uh, I'm a chess player. 517 00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:35,910 And it used to be that you needed to be, you needed to play thousands 518 00:31:35,910 --> 00:31:40,920 of games on the board live to become a more proficient chess player. 519 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,670 And that was the only way, now that you have computers, 520 00:31:44,820 --> 00:31:48,660 artificial intelligence people are becoming grad grant masters at 12. 521 00:31:49,274 --> 00:31:51,645 The, the world cha chess champion is 18. 522 00:31:52,185 --> 00:31:56,685 You actually can level yourself up much faster. 523 00:31:57,284 --> 00:32:00,044 There will be a separation, no doubt about it. 524 00:32:00,225 --> 00:32:06,225 Um, both you and c and Ted are concerned about sort of the winners 525 00:32:06,225 --> 00:32:10,395 and losers and, uh, uh, how, how the, these people will select. 526 00:32:10,905 --> 00:32:12,344 There's always a separation. 527 00:32:13,170 --> 00:32:16,140 Some people become partners, some people don't become partners. 528 00:32:16,230 --> 00:32:21,360 Um, some people, uh, uh, whatever make 25 million a year. 529 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,050 Others are satisfied to make 250,000 a year, and that's okay. 530 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:25,560 Right? 531 00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:27,210 Not different strokes. 532 00:32:27,420 --> 00:32:28,800 Strokes for different folks, right? 533 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:29,400 For courses. 534 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,030 For courses. 535 00:32:30,090 --> 00:32:35,130 But the point I am seeing is the ability is there, the tool set is there. 536 00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:38,160 That fire that Prometheus brought us. 537 00:32:38,730 --> 00:32:39,780 Is actually here. 538 00:32:40,050 --> 00:32:40,350 Right? 539 00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:41,640 How we use it. 540 00:32:41,850 --> 00:32:45,690 And that kind of goes to your point, Ansy about, you know, is this, are 541 00:32:45,690 --> 00:32:49,980 we outsourcing the future of our profession to legal tech vendors? 542 00:32:50,430 --> 00:32:51,840 Is this their responsibility? 543 00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:54,330 No, it's absolutely not their responsibility. 544 00:32:54,870 --> 00:33:00,395 It's our responsibility to figure out how we use legal tech and what we do with it. 545 00:33:01,965 --> 00:33:06,735 I mean, a lot of things have disrupted a lot of professions. 546 00:33:06,765 --> 00:33:11,415 iPhones have changed the world, even Blackies do to a, to to a lesser extent. 547 00:33:11,445 --> 00:33:16,095 Are we laying the blame at Steve Jobs's door for the fact that 548 00:33:16,095 --> 00:33:17,505 now lawyers are always on call? 549 00:33:18,095 --> 00:33:18,695 Not really. 550 00:33:18,695 --> 00:33:18,935 Right? 551 00:33:18,995 --> 00:33:21,784 We are, we're just like, well, that's, that has happened. 552 00:33:21,995 --> 00:33:26,524 That's, that's the way we, we are having this discussion using video conference 553 00:33:26,825 --> 00:33:28,715 that didn't exist even 10 years ago. 554 00:33:28,715 --> 00:33:29,855 This was very unusual. 555 00:33:29,885 --> 00:33:33,155 Now, every single call is a video conference call. 556 00:33:33,425 --> 00:33:34,625 You can no longer serve. 557 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,750 Put the call on speaker and do something else you actually need to be looking at, 558 00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:41,220 at the people you're conversing with. 559 00:33:41,370 --> 00:33:44,730 Let me stop here and, uh, and, and see if I've addressed the question. 560 00:33:44,820 --> 00:33:45,030 Yeah. 561 00:33:45,030 --> 00:33:47,610 Andy, what is your response to that? 562 00:33:47,850 --> 00:33:52,679 Yeah, I think that the vendors will build what they can build and the clients 563 00:33:52,679 --> 00:33:56,909 will demand efficiency, and I think that those things are happening regardless. 564 00:33:56,909 --> 00:33:59,250 So we agree maybe on that one. 565 00:33:59,370 --> 00:34:02,340 I think what is in our control, whether we. 566 00:34:02,774 --> 00:34:07,305 Prepare or do we just react on things that are happening to us? 567 00:34:07,485 --> 00:34:12,045 And I think that, I mean, you might disagree with me on this one, but I 568 00:34:12,045 --> 00:34:16,545 think right now we are just reacting to things that are happening to us. 569 00:34:17,085 --> 00:34:21,195 So kind of like my challenge, and this is my original challenge to the 570 00:34:21,195 --> 00:34:23,864 profession, is like take it seriously. 571 00:34:24,255 --> 00:34:28,154 Like we should act like the strategic work is the future. 572 00:34:28,694 --> 00:34:33,525 So we should invest in real training, real strategic training, and. 573 00:34:34,050 --> 00:34:38,850 Uh, the ai, so, so that we could use the AI tools in our disposal 574 00:34:39,330 --> 00:34:43,800 and then we should have this very uncomfortable but honest workforce 575 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:49,290 conversations make maybe the hard choices now before we are forced to. 576 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:54,150 And Liv had a good point about the, uh, kind of like the lawyer identity. 577 00:34:54,620 --> 00:34:57,470 Changing or evolving also in his post. 578 00:34:57,799 --> 00:35:02,839 And I think that's, that's important also, we are consistently evolving. 579 00:35:02,899 --> 00:35:07,339 I said earlier that lawyers are a little bit like cockroaches, right? 580 00:35:07,339 --> 00:35:09,049 We are very hard to get rid of. 581 00:35:09,350 --> 00:35:09,560 Right? 582 00:35:09,799 --> 00:35:12,379 We are resourceful, crafty. 583 00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:16,410 Things that are very, very difficult to get rid of. 584 00:35:16,410 --> 00:35:20,580 So I would like to see that kind of like cockroach mentality a little bit more 585 00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:25,770 where we would actually take matters into our own hands, start evolving as 586 00:35:25,770 --> 00:35:31,320 a profession and uh, and not just to be so reactive and be so complacent. 587 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,250 Just learning how to prompt a little bit better, learning how to use. 588 00:35:35,570 --> 00:35:37,340 The tools a little bit more efficiently. 589 00:35:37,460 --> 00:35:41,600 Isn't the legal industry in general, hasn't it always been extremely reactive? 590 00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:43,910 I mean, how do law firms get work? 591 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,270 They sit there and wait for the phone to ring the majority of the time. 592 00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:47,840 Right. 593 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,500 When a client has a problem, it's, there are examples of where firms have. 594 00:35:53,130 --> 00:35:58,049 Been proactive and you know, scan the docketing system and tell a client that 595 00:35:58,049 --> 00:36:00,029 they've been, they've been sued before. 596 00:36:00,029 --> 00:36:02,009 The client knows, and those are outliers. 597 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:07,350 In general, law firms have have been very reactive, not just in 598 00:36:07,830 --> 00:36:11,700 how they deliver services, but how they invest in technology. 599 00:36:11,730 --> 00:36:14,610 You know, we have a info dash is an intranet and extranet 600 00:36:14,610 --> 00:36:16,650 platform, and on the intranet side. 601 00:36:17,055 --> 00:36:18,765 It's really kind of hard to articulate. 602 00:36:18,765 --> 00:36:21,915 ROI like it's a culture building. 603 00:36:21,944 --> 00:36:26,265 It's a, we call it reducing the toggling tax, but it's squishy. 604 00:36:26,265 --> 00:36:29,384 ROI and, but it, there is value there. 605 00:36:29,625 --> 00:36:34,379 It's if you wanna present a professional a. Appearance to 606 00:36:34,379 --> 00:36:36,480 your internal stakeholders. 607 00:36:36,899 --> 00:36:39,839 Having a place where lawyers and business professionals 608 00:36:39,839 --> 00:36:42,299 can go and search for assets. 609 00:36:42,299 --> 00:36:46,259 It could be searching for legal talent or looking at latest 610 00:36:46,259 --> 00:36:50,430 firm news or the CLEs that are upcoming or learn about a practice. 611 00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:51,660 It's really important. 612 00:36:51,750 --> 00:36:55,140 Do you know when law firms invest or refresh? 613 00:36:55,210 --> 00:36:57,220 It's when they have a gun against their head. 614 00:36:57,250 --> 00:36:57,550 Right? 615 00:36:57,550 --> 00:36:59,800 There's a version of SharePoint that they have it deployed 616 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,030 on that's going end of life. 617 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:02,290 Great example. 618 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,500 The current, the last version of SharePoint on-prem 619 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,120 goes end of life in July. 620 00:37:07,475 --> 00:37:11,440 It it, it is a year long project to move an intranet. 621 00:37:11,890 --> 00:37:15,670 We are getting calls like right now and have to say no. 622 00:37:16,090 --> 00:37:21,130 So I think my take auntie is that's the default position. 623 00:37:21,130 --> 00:37:23,740 Reactive is the default position for law firms. 624 00:37:23,740 --> 00:37:24,100 Do you agree? 625 00:37:25,740 --> 00:37:29,760 Now there's something interesting also happening in legal tech world that I, 626 00:37:29,820 --> 00:37:33,720 I think that we should follow closely, which links to this discussion nicely. 627 00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:40,170 New tools like Harvey Shared Spaces and Lego Portal are giving clients. 628 00:37:40,569 --> 00:37:45,220 Very direct access to their cases so the client can see their documents, they 629 00:37:45,220 --> 00:37:50,379 can maybe run the analysis, maybe they can ask questions of the AI directly. 630 00:37:50,439 --> 00:37:52,149 And this is happening right now. 631 00:37:52,149 --> 00:37:57,009 So I think it's interesting also, like who develops the legal strategy in the future? 632 00:37:57,100 --> 00:38:02,495 Is it more like client led or, or like traditionally lawyers did that because we. 633 00:38:03,314 --> 00:38:04,694 Control the information. 634 00:38:04,694 --> 00:38:08,865 We were kind of like the translators, the gatekeepers of the legal information. 635 00:38:09,194 --> 00:38:14,685 So the, uh, asymmetry was on our side, but I think that's maybe disappearing 636 00:38:14,805 --> 00:38:19,455 a little bit now and when the clients have the same tools as we do when 637 00:38:19,455 --> 00:38:21,285 they can access the same information. 638 00:38:21,404 --> 00:38:24,134 So what is our value proposition then? 639 00:38:24,464 --> 00:38:28,274 Where do, do you need a lawyer that uses Lega or, or Harvard? 640 00:38:29,310 --> 00:38:31,320 It has to be the strategic part, right? 641 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,960 So I definitely agree with, with Liv, and that's why I think we should focus 642 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,610 on the strategic side, side of things and not just using these tools because 643 00:38:42,030 --> 00:38:46,020 very soon the clients will have the similar tools at their uh, disposal. 644 00:38:46,650 --> 00:38:46,980 Yeah. 645 00:38:46,980 --> 00:38:48,000 They, they already do. 646 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,060 Harvey has a big install base in the corporate world. 647 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,240 So we're, we're almost outta time, but I want to ask both of you, 'cause I think 648 00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:55,890 you both have really unique perspective. 649 00:38:55,950 --> 00:39:00,660 One, one question about these tools and how much these tools, 650 00:39:00,660 --> 00:39:03,630 and it's not a Harvey or Lago thing, it's really an AI thing. 651 00:39:03,870 --> 00:39:06,630 How much are these tools gonna displace law firm revenue? 652 00:39:07,380 --> 00:39:07,710 Right. 653 00:39:07,799 --> 00:39:13,049 If you, if, if you look at the valuations, it's going to be a significant portion 654 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,509 or these, all these investors were wrong. 655 00:39:16,365 --> 00:39:21,165 There's no way you can get to an $8 billion valuation and it not 656 00:39:22,245 --> 00:39:28,215 attack the services slice of the pie chart for, for law firms. 657 00:39:28,245 --> 00:39:33,675 So, Lev, do you, do you have a take on that in terms of 658 00:39:33,675 --> 00:39:35,685 like, is this a Trojan horse? 659 00:39:35,685 --> 00:39:37,215 You know, is AI a Trojan horse? 660 00:39:37,215 --> 00:39:39,975 Where we're I, I I, what are your thoughts? 661 00:39:39,975 --> 00:39:43,545 I, I'm shocked that you, uh, you, you're bringing it up. 662 00:39:43,965 --> 00:39:48,615 Ted, I think you might have read the Long series by Quentin Salt. 663 00:39:49,455 --> 00:39:50,085 Am I right? 664 00:39:51,105 --> 00:39:51,975 Uh, yeah. 665 00:39:52,035 --> 00:39:54,615 I, but I, I, I, I wrote about it before. 666 00:39:54,615 --> 00:39:55,365 He, he did. 667 00:39:55,365 --> 00:39:56,385 So, yes. 668 00:39:56,775 --> 00:40:00,975 You know what, no argument with you, but I've gotta say that. 669 00:40:01,155 --> 00:40:04,215 Dense, uh, series of posts. 670 00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:12,270 Really irked me way more than, uh, than than our, uh, you know, very polite 671 00:40:12,270 --> 00:40:14,910 exchange with ANSI on, on, on LinkedIn. 672 00:40:14,970 --> 00:40:19,995 I actually wanted to write a long reputation, uh, to, uh, to coincidence. 673 00:40:20,565 --> 00:40:21,135 Posts. 674 00:40:21,165 --> 00:40:27,825 Uh, and then I sort of realized by, by how long it would have to be and I 675 00:40:27,825 --> 00:40:29,925 couldn't justify the time expenditure. 676 00:40:30,015 --> 00:40:34,725 Let's not get into the sort of Trojan Trojan horse discussion too 677 00:40:34,725 --> 00:40:35,850 much because I think that will. 678 00:40:36,365 --> 00:40:38,464 Uh, take forever and we are almost out of time. 679 00:40:38,525 --> 00:40:43,865 What I will say is that there will undoubtedly be a change 680 00:40:43,895 --> 00:40:45,484 in the structure of revenue. 681 00:40:45,575 --> 00:40:47,944 There's like no doubt about it whatsoever. 682 00:40:48,005 --> 00:40:53,795 We are not going to be as lawyers, as law firms paid the same sort of 683 00:40:54,214 --> 00:40:58,155 exorbitant extraordinary amounts for some of the tasks that are. 684 00:40:58,875 --> 00:41:05,055 Frankly, easily automateable and we will need to find new sources of revenue and 685 00:41:05,055 --> 00:41:09,675 we will find new sources of revenue, and the, uh, systems will actually help 686 00:41:09,675 --> 00:41:14,835 us find new sources of revenue Very quickly, Ted, I do respectfully disagree 687 00:41:14,835 --> 00:41:18,165 with you that lawyers are sitting around waiting for the phone to ring. 688 00:41:18,315 --> 00:41:20,535 Never got work this way. 689 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,590 Even though I worked at the big firm and I could sort of rely on the, uh, reputation 690 00:41:25,590 --> 00:41:30,720 of the firm to a certain extent, that's, uh, no, no longer the case. 691 00:41:30,779 --> 00:41:33,870 And I'm not even talking about, say the plaintiff's bar. 692 00:41:34,350 --> 00:41:38,730 These guys are not called ambulance chasers for nothing. 693 00:41:39,180 --> 00:41:39,450 Right? 694 00:41:39,509 --> 00:41:44,549 They come up with very creative strategies on how to get clients, you know, in 695 00:41:44,549 --> 00:41:47,040 the mass towards, uh, in class actions. 696 00:41:47,549 --> 00:41:51,900 They literally develop theories and then they look for lead plaintiffs. 697 00:41:51,930 --> 00:41:57,000 They are the ones who kind of generate those lawsuits for 698 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,069 themselves so that they have the work. 699 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,110 So it's, once again, the profession is not a monolith and there is 700 00:42:04,170 --> 00:42:08,370 a lot that has always been, uh, happening in that differently, in 701 00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:10,020 different corners of the profession. 702 00:42:10,410 --> 00:42:11,730 And there will be more fair. 703 00:42:11,790 --> 00:42:14,010 Auntie, you, uh, you have any final thoughts? 704 00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:17,550 No, I mean, like, I refuse to make a prediction because 705 00:42:17,550 --> 00:42:19,140 it's going to be wrong anyway. 706 00:42:19,140 --> 00:42:21,000 If I have really no clue. 707 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,990 I'm just thinking like, what happens to those lawyers whose work is automated? 708 00:42:24,990 --> 00:42:29,520 Like do we have any retraining programs or do we just let them figure it out? 709 00:42:29,665 --> 00:42:33,510 Or what happens to these younger associates that can't maybe 710 00:42:33,510 --> 00:42:35,700 train on the same volume of. 711 00:42:37,155 --> 00:42:42,765 Of, uh, like grant legal work done done before that is very much needed to develop 712 00:42:42,765 --> 00:42:44,805 the strategic thinking like Len said. 713 00:42:45,765 --> 00:42:47,325 So I don't know the exact numbers. 714 00:42:47,385 --> 00:42:51,735 I don't know what kind of impact the AI will finally have, but I think that 715 00:42:51,735 --> 00:42:55,965 we should make realistic scenarios and then plan for those scenarios. 716 00:42:56,530 --> 00:43:00,350 And I think that it's just, you know, just, just, um. 717 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:08,640 Um, I'm agitated because I, I would love us to take those scenarios very seriously. 718 00:43:08,970 --> 00:43:11,700 That's maybe the final words that I wanna say. 719 00:43:12,330 --> 00:43:12,720 Yeah. 720 00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:13,230 Yeah. 721 00:43:13,230 --> 00:43:17,580 And it's, I think that's, that's a fair desire to have and. 722 00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:22,080 It's so much needs to change at, at law firms. 723 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,300 I think we would all three agree with that. 724 00:43:24,300 --> 00:43:26,730 I, I've actually had this debate with Lev. 725 00:43:26,730 --> 00:43:30,750 I think we have a little bit of a different take on like entity structure. 726 00:43:30,750 --> 00:43:35,250 I think the law firm partnership model is not well suited for what I think the 727 00:43:35,250 --> 00:43:39,240 industry's gonna look like in five to 10 years with, you know, significant. 728 00:43:39,645 --> 00:43:43,754 Capital investment and the need for technologists that you're gonna have to 729 00:43:44,085 --> 00:43:47,924 fight with Silicon Valley to get there, and they need, they're, you're gonna need 730 00:43:47,924 --> 00:43:49,964 stock options to, to fight that fight. 731 00:43:50,145 --> 00:43:55,634 You know, the billable model, our pricing model, the, uh, the way leaders 732 00:43:55,634 --> 00:43:59,295 elevate in law firms, which is by usually by being the best lawyer. 733 00:43:59,865 --> 00:44:04,995 Um, that's at least part of the criteria in many cases who's been most successful. 734 00:44:05,355 --> 00:44:09,045 So, yeah, a a lot needs to change and we don't really know. 735 00:44:09,795 --> 00:44:12,435 What the timeline, we don't know how long we have. 736 00:44:12,464 --> 00:44:17,235 We don't know how quickly this tech is going to mature and how 737 00:44:17,235 --> 00:44:22,365 these capabilities are going to impact how we deliver legal work. 738 00:44:22,365 --> 00:44:24,944 So this has been a fantastic conversation. 739 00:44:24,944 --> 00:44:27,105 You've both been complete, gentlemen. 740 00:44:27,134 --> 00:44:31,455 I knew you would, but it's been a pleasure sitting in between 741 00:44:31,455 --> 00:44:32,985 and moderating the debate. 742 00:44:32,985 --> 00:44:35,865 So, uh, thank you both very much for, for joining today. 743 00:44:36,180 --> 00:44:37,610 Thank, thank you for having us today. 744 00:44:37,620 --> 00:44:38,250 Thank you so much. 745 00:44:39,570 --> 00:44:39,960 Yes. 746 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:40,830 We'll talk soon. 747 00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:43,440 Thanks for listening to Legal Innovation Spotlight. 748 00:44:43,980 --> 00:44:47,460 If you found value in this chat, hit the subscribe button to be notified 749 00:44:47,460 --> 00:44:48,960 when we release new episodes. 750 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,140 We'd also really appreciate it if you could take a moment to rate 751 00:44:52,140 --> 00:44:54,780 us and leave us a review wherever you're listening right now. 752 00:44:55,380 --> 00:44:58,050 Your feedback helps us provide you with top-notch content. -->