1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:02,009 Brandy, thanks for joining me today. 2 00:00:02,790 --> 00:00:03,840 Thanks for having me, Ted. 3 00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:05,190 Great to be here. 4 00:00:05,340 --> 00:00:09,300 Yeah, so you and I have known each other for a while. 5 00:00:09,390 --> 00:00:15,630 We kind of play in the same space in the doing law firm, internets extranets, and 6 00:00:16,350 --> 00:00:18,420 we build 'em and you make 'em pretty. 7 00:00:18,630 --> 00:00:25,920 Um, so you and I have had a chance to, uh, collaborate on a couple law firm 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,520 projects, and I was excited about. 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:36,750 Getting you on and talking and doing some, um, experience share around 10 00:00:36,750 --> 00:00:38,519 all the, all your travels in legal. 11 00:00:38,519 --> 00:00:41,760 I think you've been at this as long as I have, if not longer. 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,910 So, uh, but before we jump in, um, why don't you just give us a quick intro, who 13 00:00:47,910 --> 00:00:48,905 you are, what you do, where you do it. 14 00:00:50,055 --> 00:00:50,745 Sure, sure. 15 00:00:51,195 --> 00:00:55,185 So I'm Brandy Knox, principal and creative director of Knox Design Strategy. 16 00:00:55,185 --> 00:00:59,985 We are a branding and digital design agency based here in New York. 17 00:01:00,614 --> 00:01:04,545 Uh, I am also the CEO and founder of Knox, which is a legal 18 00:01:04,575 --> 00:01:08,384 tech startup that streamlines collaboration for litigation teams. 19 00:01:09,250 --> 00:01:09,740 Awesome. 20 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:15,854 So, and um, so I've worked you with you in. 21 00:01:15,945 --> 00:01:22,664 Uh, the Knox capacity and, um, yeah, so for those that, that, that don't know, 22 00:01:22,664 --> 00:01:28,125 info Dash is a legal internet and extranet platform, and we focus on large law firms. 23 00:01:28,845 --> 00:01:33,195 And is Knox focus, is it solely legal? 24 00:01:33,195 --> 00:01:34,184 Is it big law? 25 00:01:34,184 --> 00:01:35,085 Is it mid law? 26 00:01:35,085 --> 00:01:35,919 What's, what does that look like? 27 00:01:37,950 --> 00:01:39,900 We are focused on law firms. 28 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:43,080 Uh, we do some work for law firm adjacent businesses. 29 00:01:43,140 --> 00:01:45,870 Um, that's really our law firms are really our target. 30 00:01:45,870 --> 00:01:50,220 We sometimes get a call from another professional services firm in another 31 00:01:50,220 --> 00:01:54,810 area who thinks that our, you know, our experience translates well and you 32 00:01:54,810 --> 00:01:57,360 know, always B2B, and so we take those. 33 00:01:58,140 --> 00:01:59,910 And how does, I would say scale, oh, sorry. 34 00:02:00,390 --> 00:02:02,070 Scale of firm really depends. 35 00:02:02,070 --> 00:02:03,600 Uh, it depends on the project. 36 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,770 We might be in the, the sort of the smaller mid market firm, and then we may 37 00:02:07,770 --> 00:02:09,780 be, you know, working with the AML 200. 38 00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:10,560 It varies. 39 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:11,700 Yeah. 40 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:13,740 I've worked with you and, and bigger firms. 41 00:02:13,740 --> 00:02:16,170 How does, I'm kind of curious. 42 00:02:16,170 --> 00:02:22,050 Like, so for us, having a legal focus is beneficial because like with our product. 43 00:02:22,590 --> 00:02:27,780 We have integrations with all the legal back office systems and like 44 00:02:27,780 --> 00:02:33,720 there are a few like horizontal players in the internet and extranet space, 45 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,049 but they, they, to be honest with you, they don't compete very well. 46 00:02:37,049 --> 00:02:39,630 They've got like low single digit market share. 47 00:02:40,140 --> 00:02:40,230 Mm-hmm. 48 00:02:40,470 --> 00:02:41,880 And us understanding. 49 00:02:42,780 --> 00:02:47,580 Law firm needs and understanding the culture and like what knowledge management 50 00:02:47,580 --> 00:02:53,520 is like, how does, how does, like having a focus on legal help in the design process? 51 00:02:54,750 --> 00:02:54,900 Yeah. 52 00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:58,875 Well, it really helps us understand all the many different. 53 00:03:00,195 --> 00:03:04,695 Groups and anything from the different players, the different groups, the 54 00:03:04,695 --> 00:03:09,704 tech, the technology, the content, the everything down to like how they 55 00:03:09,704 --> 00:03:14,055 store legal precedents, how they operate, the culture, all these things. 56 00:03:14,115 --> 00:03:17,865 Uh, over year, the years of experience of working with law firms, there's. 57 00:03:18,180 --> 00:03:19,320 Probably not much. 58 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,210 We haven't touched at some point. 59 00:03:21,630 --> 00:03:25,799 So there's a lot of knowledge about operations and how 60 00:03:25,799 --> 00:03:27,060 they get things done, right? 61 00:03:27,060 --> 00:03:28,049 That's really important. 62 00:03:28,049 --> 00:03:32,880 So we talk about design and we talk about the functionality, but 63 00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:38,160 it's really also looking at what we're surfacing and the content. 64 00:03:38,220 --> 00:03:42,450 And as much as firms are different, there's similarities. 65 00:03:42,450 --> 00:03:45,785 So as much of the process is about knowing what questions to ask. 66 00:03:46,545 --> 00:03:50,355 How to drill down in order to solve some of the problems that firms have. 67 00:03:50,955 --> 00:03:54,735 I that, and I would imagine, you know, you, you're, you're small 68 00:03:54,735 --> 00:04:02,835 like us and like having a focus allows you to be top of mind. 69 00:04:03,105 --> 00:04:06,735 And, you know, that's hard to do when you're spread horizontally 70 00:04:06,735 --> 00:04:08,625 across many different industries. 71 00:04:09,495 --> 00:04:13,035 You know, being being focused allows us. 72 00:04:13,845 --> 00:04:19,485 To know what events folks go to, build relationships over many years. 73 00:04:19,485 --> 00:04:22,125 And then when people think of, Hey, I have an intranet, or 74 00:04:22,125 --> 00:04:24,735 Extranet need, they, they call us. 75 00:04:24,735 --> 00:04:27,765 I would imagine the same applies to you a hundred percent. 76 00:04:27,855 --> 00:04:28,575 Absolutely. 77 00:04:28,575 --> 00:04:32,475 I mean, it's, it helps with relationship building, word of mouth. 78 00:04:32,475 --> 00:04:35,565 Even people who haven't met you have probably heard of you, so. 79 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,270 They'll call on you and some, you know, sometimes we absolutely get 80 00:04:39,270 --> 00:04:43,200 calls for things we can help with and sometimes they're not things we can 81 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,070 help with, but because we know the space so well, we can always refer, 82 00:04:47,310 --> 00:04:52,349 work out or say, we don't do that, but here's who you should speak to, or you. 83 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:56,430 Someone's building something, designing something, there's something 84 00:04:56,430 --> 00:04:58,050 tangential to what we're doing. 85 00:04:58,050 --> 00:05:02,100 That isn't something we do in-house, like info dash and we can say, okay, 86 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:03,780 here's who we should partner with that. 87 00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:07,500 And, and also because we have those relationships that are consistent, 88 00:05:07,740 --> 00:05:11,850 clients worry less 'cause they know we've worked together, they understand, 89 00:05:11,910 --> 00:05:14,160 you know, how you all work, how we work. 90 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,050 And it just makes it seamless for everyone. 91 00:05:16,290 --> 00:05:16,620 Yeah. 92 00:05:17,370 --> 00:05:18,585 Well speaking of that, like. 93 00:05:20,070 --> 00:05:25,650 How, one of the things that you do that we sometimes do, but would rather not 94 00:05:25,650 --> 00:05:28,349 do, is like requirements gathering. 95 00:05:28,799 --> 00:05:34,500 So for years we were known as acro wire and that was a, uh, 96 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:35,609 we used to call it envisioning. 97 00:05:36,420 --> 00:05:38,490 And envisioning we were a service provider. 98 00:05:38,490 --> 00:05:40,080 We didn't have a product back then. 99 00:05:40,140 --> 00:05:44,400 We actually kind of had the, the, the early beginnings of info dash 100 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,080 started in the acro wire days. 101 00:05:46,110 --> 00:05:51,460 And, um, but for the most part we were just billing time and mm-hmm 102 00:05:52,110 --> 00:05:57,810 we, we were good at delivering services and focused on it. 103 00:05:58,530 --> 00:06:00,840 And as we transition to a product company. 104 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:04,980 It's, you only have so many resources and so many places you 105 00:06:04,980 --> 00:06:07,170 can really focus and be good. 106 00:06:07,860 --> 00:06:07,950 Mm-hmm. 107 00:06:08,190 --> 00:06:11,340 And we're really good at the product stuff and implementing our product. 108 00:06:11,849 --> 00:06:15,900 But in terms of like gathering requirements, we still do it all the time 109 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:17,670 because we're, we're kind of forced to. 110 00:06:18,570 --> 00:06:23,115 But, um, you've done a lot of that work as well. 111 00:06:25,620 --> 00:06:28,590 We used to have like a, we called it our envisioning toolkit. 112 00:06:28,740 --> 00:06:34,440 So it was like we would have a, uh, an inventory of user stories. 113 00:06:34,710 --> 00:06:36,270 We had like over a hundred of them. 114 00:06:36,870 --> 00:06:44,310 Um, we had like low fidelity wire frames for like a client page, a matter 115 00:06:44,310 --> 00:06:49,560 page, a client team page that's more BD focused, all that sort of stuff. 116 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,099 And you probably have a whole playbook too, but like, how. 117 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,270 Who do you engage with when you're doing, like, requirements gathering 118 00:06:57,359 --> 00:06:58,890 and what does that process look like? 119 00:07:00,090 --> 00:07:01,080 Yeah, good question. 120 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:05,010 Uh, we call our process more of a discovery process. 121 00:07:05,039 --> 00:07:09,630 Um, we typically engage the core stakeholders who have, have reached 122 00:07:09,630 --> 00:07:13,919 out, and then a, a few stakeholders around that group, so to speak. 123 00:07:13,919 --> 00:07:19,469 So it usually, these requests come from KM or KM and I, so we'll pull that group in. 124 00:07:20,580 --> 00:07:23,550 Often their technology teams. 125 00:07:23,969 --> 00:07:26,729 So we'll go through some work shopping with a small group, 126 00:07:26,969 --> 00:07:28,440 you know, five to six people. 127 00:07:28,890 --> 00:07:32,550 Uh, we have a series of questions that we ask and we drill deeper depending 128 00:07:32,550 --> 00:07:34,050 on some of the answers that we get. 129 00:07:34,110 --> 00:07:38,219 We look at their existing space, um, talk about their pain points, 130 00:07:38,219 --> 00:07:42,570 and so we come out of that with answers to some questions and more 131 00:07:42,570 --> 00:07:45,030 questions we have for other groups. 132 00:07:45,090 --> 00:07:48,659 And then we drill down more into, you know, ideally. 133 00:07:49,275 --> 00:07:50,415 The specific groups. 134 00:07:50,415 --> 00:07:55,095 So speaking to some of the practice managers and leaders speaking to, uh, 135 00:07:55,095 --> 00:07:59,745 hr, speaking to the various business units, and again, doing that same, going 136 00:07:59,745 --> 00:08:03,075 through that same process with their current space and looking at current 137 00:08:03,075 --> 00:08:09,225 state, future state, uh, but asking very specific questions about workflow. 138 00:08:10,005 --> 00:08:13,455 What issues they have with current workflow pain points. 139 00:08:13,455 --> 00:08:18,975 So we, we don't, we take the conversation broader than just the intranet. 140 00:08:19,275 --> 00:08:24,225 'cause there are many things we can solve with the intranet, but I think in order 141 00:08:24,225 --> 00:08:28,185 to get there, sometimes you have to remove the design and remove the technology from 142 00:08:28,215 --> 00:08:29,805 the conversation, if that makes sense. 143 00:08:30,105 --> 00:08:30,585 Totally. 144 00:08:30,585 --> 00:08:30,795 Yeah. 145 00:08:30,830 --> 00:08:32,775 I, I, we hate the term intranet. 146 00:08:32,775 --> 00:08:36,225 We, we still use it 'cause the market knows what it means, but it. 147 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,500 On the intranet, a, a better word, is really digital workplace. 148 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:40,920 Mm-hmm. 149 00:08:41,220 --> 00:08:42,840 On the, on the intranet side. 150 00:08:42,930 --> 00:08:50,160 And we are the first company to bring together intranet and intranet, and 151 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,110 we call that unified collaboration. 152 00:08:52,470 --> 00:08:52,560 Mm-hmm. 153 00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:56,370 Um, there have, there have been some companies that have tried to do it in 154 00:08:56,370 --> 00:08:58,080 the past but have not been successful. 155 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,570 And I think they did it. 156 00:09:01,530 --> 00:09:02,760 Maybe they were a little early. 157 00:09:03,180 --> 00:09:05,370 And the, and the technology wasn't ready. 158 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,290 Um, but with SharePoint online, it just makes perfect sense. 159 00:09:10,290 --> 00:09:16,890 Like if you had, if you had SharePoint on-prem that, you know, back before 160 00:09:17,010 --> 00:09:21,510 SharePoint online was really viable, you could, you could stand up a 161 00:09:21,510 --> 00:09:25,980 separate SharePoint environment, put it in a DMZ, make it external 162 00:09:25,980 --> 00:09:27,570 facing and build an extra net. 163 00:09:28,065 --> 00:09:33,075 Platform out of it, but it's just, there was a lot of complexity and 164 00:09:33,675 --> 00:09:36,435 um, it was just a, a lot of pain. 165 00:09:36,555 --> 00:09:41,775 So yeah, we're anxious to start using different terminology, but we 166 00:09:41,775 --> 00:09:45,105 gotta wait until the market's ready or people won't know what you do. 167 00:09:45,105 --> 00:09:45,915 And that's not a good thing. 168 00:09:45,915 --> 00:09:46,485 Exactly. 169 00:09:46,785 --> 00:09:47,925 That's never a good thing. 170 00:09:47,925 --> 00:09:54,975 No, but you know, what about like some of the traditionally overlooked voices? 171 00:09:55,965 --> 00:09:59,865 In the law firm space, like, you know, I used to call it the 172 00:09:59,865 --> 00:10:01,814 squeaky wheel problem, so, mm-hmm. 173 00:10:02,055 --> 00:10:05,235 You know, we would, when, when we would come in and do envisioning with 174 00:10:05,235 --> 00:10:09,194 a law firm and try and understand their use cases, there were, there 175 00:10:09,194 --> 00:10:15,314 were pockets of influence within the firm that had a disproportional. 176 00:10:15,735 --> 00:10:23,385 Voice and sometimes that would guide the project in a non-productive 177 00:10:23,385 --> 00:10:25,695 direction, and we weren't. 178 00:10:26,265 --> 00:10:28,935 And it was always a struggle for us. 179 00:10:28,995 --> 00:10:32,595 I don't know, maybe you've cracked the code on how to balance. 180 00:10:33,135 --> 00:10:35,010 How to balance the um. 181 00:10:36,075 --> 00:10:41,085 The feedback and ensure that the people who are actually using this every day, 182 00:10:41,355 --> 00:10:45,495 not just the people who have the most influence in the law firm, are the 183 00:10:45,495 --> 00:10:49,695 ones who also get a seat at the table. 184 00:10:49,695 --> 00:10:52,395 Like how, how do you go about that? 185 00:10:54,045 --> 00:10:54,975 Yeah, absolutely. 186 00:10:54,975 --> 00:10:59,085 I mean, it's, when we go through those early discovery sessions and we start to 187 00:10:59,085 --> 00:11:04,755 drill down into the various groups, we, we try to get individuals from all levels. 188 00:11:05,475 --> 00:11:12,225 So from Par Senior Partners down to, you know, through people who are really 189 00:11:12,225 --> 00:11:16,935 supporting those attorneys, making sure there, there's a lot that they do day 190 00:11:16,935 --> 00:11:21,045 to day and in many ways sometimes may be leveraging these digital workspaces more. 191 00:11:21,555 --> 00:11:25,425 So it's really about bringing everybody to the table and making 192 00:11:25,425 --> 00:11:29,265 sure they have a vo, their voice is heard, but that you understand their 193 00:11:29,564 --> 00:11:31,365 workflow, how they're operating. 194 00:11:31,425 --> 00:11:31,575 Um. 195 00:11:33,959 --> 00:11:38,310 And, you know, going back to the, the squeaky wheel problem, uh, 196 00:11:38,729 --> 00:11:40,354 we, we like to start out with. 197 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,300 Who, who's gonna be, give us a list of who is gonna participate 198 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:48,510 in some of these workshops and meetings and we guide them, right? 199 00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:52,709 So we, we don't want all senior people, we don't want all junior people. 200 00:11:52,709 --> 00:11:54,569 It needs to, it needs to vary. 201 00:11:54,990 --> 00:11:59,010 Um, and that means that sometimes very senior people who don't really have time 202 00:11:59,010 --> 00:12:03,180 or don't wanna be a part of it, but who have a lot of decision making authority. 203 00:12:03,780 --> 00:12:06,300 And sometimes over this week it will need to show up. 204 00:12:06,795 --> 00:12:10,814 Because if the wheel's gonna sweep, we have to talk to the wheel. 205 00:12:10,814 --> 00:12:12,584 So that's part of it. 206 00:12:12,675 --> 00:12:15,255 Um, and we also asked for. 207 00:12:15,915 --> 00:12:20,595 We also ask our, uh, stakeholders to give us feedback on the 208 00:12:20,595 --> 00:12:22,064 participants in the workshop. 209 00:12:22,485 --> 00:12:26,115 So if it's someone who is a real, uh, strong ambassador for 210 00:12:26,115 --> 00:12:29,175 the group and a supporter of the group, we wanna know that. 211 00:12:29,265 --> 00:12:31,214 'cause we can leverage that individual. 212 00:12:31,665 --> 00:12:34,035 We can ask specific questions. 213 00:12:34,064 --> 00:12:37,605 That individual, if it's somebody who is the squeaky wheel, we wanna know 214 00:12:37,605 --> 00:12:39,944 that too because we're prepared for it. 215 00:12:41,354 --> 00:12:43,995 We can ask good follow up, because sometimes the squeaky 216 00:12:43,995 --> 00:12:47,834 will ask for something that they think will solve their problem. 217 00:12:48,224 --> 00:12:50,444 So we wanna answer the squeaky will. 218 00:12:50,474 --> 00:12:53,775 But sometimes if you actually understand more of what the problem 219 00:12:53,775 --> 00:12:56,805 is, there's a different solution that is going to solve for that. 220 00:12:56,984 --> 00:12:57,704 Does that makes sense? 221 00:12:57,734 --> 00:12:58,185 Yeah. 222 00:12:58,425 --> 00:13:01,245 And you want, you want the wheel to squeak at the right time. 223 00:13:01,484 --> 00:13:05,564 If the wheel squeaks too late, and we used to run into that. 224 00:13:05,895 --> 00:13:11,745 A lot where you'd get down into the red zone on the project and then 225 00:13:11,745 --> 00:13:19,485 somebody would parachute in who had disproportionate influence and take us 226 00:13:19,935 --> 00:13:24,525 10 steps backwards and it would slow things down, to be honest with you. 227 00:13:24,525 --> 00:13:28,485 That's why I, I don't really wanna focus on the work now. 228 00:13:28,485 --> 00:13:29,805 It's, there's so much. 229 00:13:30,705 --> 00:13:34,095 Like if I can keep my, so we have a pretty big professional services team. 230 00:13:34,125 --> 00:13:38,445 We're only, I don't know, we've got like 52, 53 employees today. 231 00:13:39,765 --> 00:13:43,845 Almost half of those folks are professional services. 232 00:13:44,055 --> 00:13:49,335 So we deliver a lot of services today and one of our big challenges 233 00:13:49,335 --> 00:13:52,005 with law firms is this start, stop. 234 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,090 You know, motion. 235 00:13:54,090 --> 00:13:54,150 Yeah. 236 00:13:54,780 --> 00:13:58,620 And we've even been, I've been kicking around ideas on how to create 237 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:03,720 pricing incentives, kind of the carrot and stick approach to mm-hmm. 238 00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:07,860 Creating incentives and penalties when things drag out, because, 239 00:14:08,430 --> 00:14:11,490 you know, with an internet project or a digital workplace project. 240 00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:15,810 Sometimes that's not always the highest priority for the firm, and 241 00:14:15,810 --> 00:14:19,260 something will come over the top of it and they'll just want to hit pause. 242 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:24,450 And meanwhile, I've got resources standing by idly that I've gotta like 243 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:29,430 either fill in and then once I get their plate full heading in another 244 00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:35,430 direction, I can't just pivot back when the firm says they're ready and it, it, 245 00:14:35,490 --> 00:14:37,860 it just, it, it becomes challenging. 246 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:39,360 So we've been trying to focus. 247 00:14:39,930 --> 00:14:46,680 Our professional services team on really product related activities because we 248 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,440 can tend to generate momentum there. 249 00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:53,610 We found that there's a lot of stop, start in the requirements gathering. 250 00:14:53,725 --> 00:14:55,560 I I, has that been your experience as well? 251 00:14:55,775 --> 00:14:56,125 There? 252 00:14:56,490 --> 00:14:57,810 There absolutely can be. 253 00:14:57,930 --> 00:15:01,560 And like you said, if, if, if our work takes longer with the client 254 00:15:01,620 --> 00:15:05,550 that you guys are later getting a start, which is never good either. 255 00:15:05,610 --> 00:15:05,970 Um. 256 00:15:06,810 --> 00:15:08,430 There are some stop and starts. 257 00:15:08,430 --> 00:15:12,390 I find now there are more delays than stop and starts and, and I see 258 00:15:12,390 --> 00:15:13,770 that a little bit as a difference. 259 00:15:13,770 --> 00:15:17,610 And so we get an engagement, let's just say we say it's six to eight months. 260 00:15:17,610 --> 00:15:19,680 We build a timeline that's eight, that's six. 261 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,699 We always build it for the shortest span and we're meeting every week. 262 00:15:23,970 --> 00:15:27,209 And when a deadline is missed and, and frankly, it's almost always 263 00:15:27,209 --> 00:15:30,959 on the client side because they got busy, it's shifted and every 264 00:15:30,959 --> 00:15:32,490 week we let them know it shifted. 265 00:15:32,490 --> 00:15:34,345 We're gonna keep going, but now our. 266 00:15:35,025 --> 00:15:36,195 The end game has shifted. 267 00:15:36,945 --> 00:15:41,205 Um, rarely do we see where things completely get put on hold. 268 00:15:41,985 --> 00:15:45,615 Um, we do have some things that we have included to cushion 269 00:15:45,615 --> 00:15:47,355 us around in our agreements. 270 00:15:48,105 --> 00:15:50,625 It doesn't always make it into our final agreement. 271 00:15:50,625 --> 00:15:53,625 I don't know if you've had that experience, but it it, it is an 272 00:15:53,625 --> 00:15:55,580 opportunity for our conversation. 273 00:15:57,209 --> 00:15:59,939 But you know it, here's exactly what you said. 274 00:15:59,939 --> 00:16:01,079 Here's why we do this. 275 00:16:01,079 --> 00:16:03,060 Because we're setting aside resources. 276 00:16:03,449 --> 00:16:07,890 We're making sure this project finishes and with within this timeline, and 277 00:16:07,890 --> 00:16:11,670 if it doesn't, there's additional resources if it gets put on pause. 278 00:16:12,045 --> 00:16:13,425 Everything shifts, right? 279 00:16:13,425 --> 00:16:18,285 So, um, and we don't, we, I have a team even smaller than yours. 280 00:16:18,285 --> 00:16:20,745 We don't always, none of us have that luxury. 281 00:16:20,775 --> 00:16:23,595 So yeah, it's a very reasonable thing. 282 00:16:23,625 --> 00:16:27,645 Like in, in other industries, you know, I think that's another interesting 283 00:16:27,645 --> 00:16:36,015 dynamic in working with law firms is, you know, inside the practice they. 284 00:16:36,555 --> 00:16:37,665 Say jump. 285 00:16:37,755 --> 00:16:41,505 And sometimes a lot of the support functions have to ask how high, right? 286 00:16:42,105 --> 00:16:42,195 Mm-hmm. 287 00:16:42,495 --> 00:16:47,895 Especially when we talk about squeaky wheels, you know, uh, areas of the 288 00:16:47,895 --> 00:16:53,220 business within the practice who have a. Um, who have a lot of influence 289 00:16:53,310 --> 00:16:58,410 and sometimes that carries over to how, you know, they gotta put, do 290 00:16:58,410 --> 00:17:00,210 the same thing to, to their vendors. 291 00:17:00,210 --> 00:17:00,270 Yeah. 292 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:03,720 Just to, just to keep their jobs, you know? 293 00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:04,315 Yeah, exactly. 294 00:17:04,775 --> 00:17:06,300 And, uh, yeah, and I get it. 295 00:17:06,450 --> 00:17:07,080 I get it. 296 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:08,340 But it's not a reasonable thing. 297 00:17:08,340 --> 00:17:13,440 Like I, I worked in financial services and I worked in shipping, um, I worked in 298 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,890 tech at Microsoft, like never was that. 299 00:17:18,045 --> 00:17:25,245 Situation where as a client, I had the ability to just freeze a project 300 00:17:25,305 --> 00:17:29,955 and my vendor has to deal with the implications of that without some 301 00:17:29,955 --> 00:17:32,445 sort of financial consideration. 302 00:17:32,985 --> 00:17:39,375 Um, but it, I I, we've run into it in le it's been a struggle, candidly. 303 00:17:40,065 --> 00:17:40,425 Yeah. 304 00:17:40,665 --> 00:17:40,995 Yeah. 305 00:17:41,775 --> 00:17:42,555 It can be. 306 00:17:42,645 --> 00:17:45,885 And, and usually you get a sense pretty quickly. 307 00:17:47,085 --> 00:17:48,375 Where it's coming from. 308 00:17:49,245 --> 00:17:50,085 Um, you might not know. 309 00:17:50,205 --> 00:17:55,515 You know, it's always, typically, very often it's coming from more senior 310 00:17:55,515 --> 00:17:58,305 management, sometimes the individuals you're not even dealing with, right? 311 00:17:58,905 --> 00:18:02,565 So sometimes you can get a sense of that just by how meetings are 312 00:18:02,565 --> 00:18:03,975 run and things that get said. 313 00:18:04,065 --> 00:18:08,835 Um, and you have these conversations. 314 00:18:08,865 --> 00:18:10,965 Um, but it, it, it is tricky. 315 00:18:10,965 --> 00:18:13,455 And one of the things sort of going back to. 316 00:18:14,055 --> 00:18:15,225 Who to involve. 317 00:18:15,255 --> 00:18:19,635 One of the conversations we have early is who are the key decision? 318 00:18:19,695 --> 00:18:21,705 Who needs to be involved from the outset? 319 00:18:22,365 --> 00:18:23,625 Who needs to buy in? 320 00:18:24,345 --> 00:18:26,685 Who needs to approve it, and where? 321 00:18:26,775 --> 00:18:28,845 Where are potential blockers gonna happen? 322 00:18:29,415 --> 00:18:31,575 Because just as you said, nothing worse. 323 00:18:31,845 --> 00:18:36,615 First of all, anything that gets presented to a senior person who has 324 00:18:36,615 --> 00:18:39,675 to approve it or someone who didn't even know this thing was coming, which 325 00:18:39,675 --> 00:18:41,355 is the worst thing ever you can do. 326 00:18:42,794 --> 00:18:45,375 Because that is just, that's never gonna fly. 327 00:18:45,405 --> 00:18:49,335 So that person at least needs to, whoever it is, they need to have buy-in, 328 00:18:49,665 --> 00:18:53,534 they need to approve it, they need to have some level of involvement early. 329 00:18:53,534 --> 00:18:53,595 Um. 330 00:18:55,379 --> 00:18:58,679 To share something at the last minute for approval is only ever going 331 00:18:58,679 --> 00:19:01,229 to end badly from my experience. 332 00:19:01,409 --> 00:19:01,949 Yes. 333 00:19:01,949 --> 00:19:04,739 So, well, strong project management, you're describing 334 00:19:04,739 --> 00:19:06,149 strong project management. 335 00:19:06,810 --> 00:19:07,080 Yeah. 336 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,340 And when you're in the project business, that's a, that is a 337 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:14,875 key influencer in your success. 338 00:19:16,044 --> 00:19:16,864 Um, yes. 339 00:19:17,159 --> 00:19:19,649 Well, you and I talked a little bit the last time about. 340 00:19:20,610 --> 00:19:26,700 How, how intranets have, have changed from, you know, I mean, intranets have 341 00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:34,470 been around since the nineties and you know, they started very static places 342 00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:36,750 where you would go get basic information. 343 00:19:36,750 --> 00:19:40,650 Like what the, what's on the lunch menu? 344 00:19:41,534 --> 00:19:45,915 To, you know, where's the PTO policy, uh, directions to the off, 345 00:19:45,945 --> 00:19:47,774 you know, just really basic stuff. 346 00:19:47,774 --> 00:19:52,605 And a lot of people still think of them that way, which it is a 347 00:19:52,784 --> 00:19:55,274 completely different world today. 348 00:19:55,274 --> 00:20:00,165 Like, I mean, we, we have integrations with just about every legal back 349 00:20:00,165 --> 00:20:01,784 office system that there is. 350 00:20:01,965 --> 00:20:02,055 Mm-hmm. 351 00:20:02,294 --> 00:20:04,754 And we, we are like a single pane of glass. 352 00:20:04,815 --> 00:20:08,534 So you can drag and drop data from. 353 00:20:08,909 --> 00:20:13,199 Different data sources very easily and build experiences that 354 00:20:13,199 --> 00:20:14,790 create a single pane of glass. 355 00:20:15,389 --> 00:20:21,750 Um, and I know in your travels you've seen this, this evolution as well, 356 00:20:21,750 --> 00:20:27,330 but like, I'm curious what, you know, when you talk about intranets, are 357 00:20:27,330 --> 00:20:30,090 you, are you having conversations. 358 00:20:30,975 --> 00:20:34,665 At the more advanced end of the spectrum, or are people coming to 359 00:20:34,665 --> 00:20:40,935 the table with those expectations from the nineties, um, and are really 360 00:20:40,935 --> 00:20:48,135 just trying to upgrade a pretty static, um, non-dynamic environment? 361 00:20:49,995 --> 00:20:51,945 Yeah, I, I think it varies. 362 00:20:52,125 --> 00:20:57,075 Um, sometimes the, the request for sort of that lift and shift, we want what 363 00:20:57,075 --> 00:20:58,399 we have now, but we just want it to. 364 00:20:59,490 --> 00:21:03,750 The navigation to be better and to look better sometimes comes from not 365 00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:07,649 being aware of all the possibilities that they have at their fingertips. 366 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,909 So there's some education involved and some asking questions. 367 00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:13,860 So like what? 368 00:21:13,950 --> 00:21:14,430 Um. 369 00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:19,320 Based on who you are and where you are and what you do every day, what 370 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,050 are the kind of things that would be really useful to surface from some 371 00:21:22,050 --> 00:21:26,040 of those other systems even or from some other places within the internet? 372 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,580 So that I'm not, I think you caught the toggle tax. 373 00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:30,655 I don't know if that was you. 374 00:21:30,655 --> 00:21:30,895 Mm-hmm. 375 00:21:30,975 --> 00:21:32,460 Who invented that or someone else. 376 00:21:32,460 --> 00:21:36,180 But I'm not shifting gears five times to get something done. 377 00:21:36,180 --> 00:21:40,980 I have all those things at my fingertips based on those roles and locations. 378 00:21:40,980 --> 00:21:44,430 So some of it is, is that, um. 379 00:21:45,165 --> 00:21:49,304 And asking a lot of the questions, making sure they understand the technology, 380 00:21:49,605 --> 00:21:52,844 asking the right questions, and then try to make those suggestions for 381 00:21:52,844 --> 00:21:55,215 how to make it something more robust. 382 00:21:55,980 --> 00:22:00,300 You know, um, also, just, just for full clarification, the lunch menu is 383 00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:03,330 still very, very popular at law firms. 384 00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:03,690 Yeah. 385 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,090 Well, and, uh, I don't know. 386 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,800 You know, to be honest with you, I can't remember if we invented the term, but we 387 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,020 di certainly didn't invent the concept. 388 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:18,000 We got it from, there was a Harvard Business Review article from shortly 389 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,230 after COVID, and they did a study of. 390 00:22:22,830 --> 00:22:24,780 It was a really big sample size. 391 00:22:24,780 --> 00:22:28,200 I don't remember how many tens of thousands of information workers, but 392 00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:35,129 they looked at, um, information workers in different industries and measured how much 393 00:22:35,129 --> 00:22:40,080 time they spent reorienting themselves switching from application to application. 394 00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:45,149 First of all, the number of times that they, that a average information 395 00:22:45,149 --> 00:22:47,580 worker switches is something like 1200. 396 00:22:48,675 --> 00:22:49,604 Times a day. 397 00:22:50,084 --> 00:22:54,375 So, and I forget the details that it's been a while since I've read that 398 00:22:54,375 --> 00:22:58,215 study, but, um, I mean, think about every time you switch from outlook to 399 00:22:58,215 --> 00:23:02,865 your browser to OneNote to claw to. 400 00:23:03,645 --> 00:23:07,305 Word to excel, you know, 1200 times a day. 401 00:23:07,905 --> 00:23:14,025 And they measured the impact to productivity and it was a route 402 00:23:14,055 --> 00:23:19,005 about 9% of an information worker's day is spent reorienting themselves. 403 00:23:19,635 --> 00:23:24,465 So for if you work a 40 hour week, that's almost four hours a week. 404 00:23:24,885 --> 00:23:28,515 We all know that lawyers work way more than 40 hours a week. 405 00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:32,190 So whatever that number is, it really adds up. 406 00:23:32,399 --> 00:23:37,470 So that's kind of one of our pitches when law firms, you know, 407 00:23:37,470 --> 00:23:41,610 are trying to articulate ROI, Hey, what's the ROI on this? 408 00:23:41,610 --> 00:23:42,810 It's the toggling tax. 409 00:23:42,810 --> 00:23:46,080 And it doesn't eliminate it, but it drastically reduces it 410 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,889 because, you know, like on a client page, we will have information 411 00:23:49,889 --> 00:23:51,450 from 10 different data sources. 412 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:52,230 It's. 413 00:23:52,725 --> 00:23:56,745 The practice management solution that's gonna have open matters. 414 00:23:56,745 --> 00:24:00,465 It's gonna have engagement letters from the DMS, it's gonna have a list 415 00:24:00,495 --> 00:24:03,705 of the client contacts from CRM. 416 00:24:04,034 --> 00:24:09,705 It will have a list of, um, attorneys who are billing time to those matters. 417 00:24:09,915 --> 00:24:11,955 That's coming from the timekeeping system. 418 00:24:12,135 --> 00:24:12,225 Mm-hmm. 419 00:24:12,465 --> 00:24:14,564 It may have analytics from. 420 00:24:14,865 --> 00:24:18,945 Big hand or power BI all in one place. 421 00:24:19,305 --> 00:24:23,925 So as a lawyer, if I want to get a holistic view or a BD professional 422 00:24:24,285 --> 00:24:29,024 and I want to get a holistic view of my client, that's what we provide. 423 00:24:29,055 --> 00:24:32,774 And um, it is a sub substantial savings. 424 00:24:32,774 --> 00:24:34,460 So, you know, we try. 425 00:24:35,205 --> 00:24:36,870 Educate the market on what mm-hmm. 426 00:24:37,365 --> 00:24:42,195 The bigger firms seem to have a better sense of these possibilities. 427 00:24:42,315 --> 00:24:44,895 Um, I Is that your take as well? 428 00:24:46,755 --> 00:24:47,925 Yeah, I think so. 429 00:24:48,045 --> 00:24:52,215 Um, you know, with the internet work, we're usually, we're 430 00:24:52,215 --> 00:24:55,515 usually working in, in the bigger, in the larger law firm space. 431 00:24:55,575 --> 00:24:55,995 Um. 432 00:24:56,715 --> 00:25:00,195 One, they have, I think the need they have, the more of the resources 433 00:25:00,195 --> 00:25:01,335 to pull these things together. 434 00:25:01,935 --> 00:25:06,495 Um, but I think it's the ROI on the toggle tax. 435 00:25:06,525 --> 00:25:09,075 The toggle tax and how many hours you're losing. 436 00:25:09,075 --> 00:25:13,125 And then if you just think about the mental capacity it takes, at least 437 00:25:13,125 --> 00:25:16,875 for me, I know it takes a lot of my mental capacity to switch gears. 438 00:25:16,995 --> 00:25:17,205 Yeah. 439 00:25:17,235 --> 00:25:21,195 All the times that you do in a day, there's just something 440 00:25:21,195 --> 00:25:22,725 more rewarding about having. 441 00:25:23,595 --> 00:25:24,015 Done. 442 00:25:24,045 --> 00:25:27,525 Good, solid work, accomplish something, and not being completely fried at the 443 00:25:27,525 --> 00:25:32,025 end of the day because you were literally just going from one thing to another in 444 00:25:32,025 --> 00:25:36,225 a million different, you know, browsers and applications and tabs and can't find 445 00:25:36,225 --> 00:25:37,635 things and don't know where things are. 446 00:25:37,635 --> 00:25:39,075 Oh, it's not here, it's over there. 447 00:25:39,795 --> 00:25:44,085 Um, and you know, these, when we work on these projects, there. 448 00:25:45,180 --> 00:25:50,670 There are decisions we make early and we hope they're all good decisions, right? 449 00:25:50,670 --> 00:25:53,130 We're working with the clients to make them, and we're leveraging the 450 00:25:53,130 --> 00:25:59,460 technology, but they have a platform that then enables them to continue. 451 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,510 If, if some of those, if 10% or 15% of those were not. 452 00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:08,760 After someone, after their users use it for a few months or six 453 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,590 months or a year, there's, there's ways to grow, there's ways to 454 00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:15,360 continue to improve upon it, right? 455 00:26:15,389 --> 00:26:19,680 So I, I also think it's not a one and done thing, right? 456 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,710 It's a living, breathing space and it has to be treated that way. 457 00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:27,180 'cause work workflows change, people change, um, the 458 00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:28,680 tools they're using change. 459 00:26:28,770 --> 00:26:30,930 So, and I think that's part of the problem that. 460 00:26:31,620 --> 00:26:36,930 I know we're seeing, it's not just the outdated technology, but things shifted 461 00:26:36,930 --> 00:26:41,310 in every, and it, it is just become a, uh, data dump for everybody to also 462 00:26:41,310 --> 00:26:42,750 kind of do whatever they wanna do. 463 00:26:42,750 --> 00:26:46,980 And so now instead of a handful of people being frustrated, everybody's frustrated 464 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:48,450 because they can't find anything. 465 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,720 You know, some of it, a lot of it is a technology, but there's a lot 466 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,280 of just sometimes poor decisions or, or not really thinking about 467 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,690 the problem they're trying to solve. 468 00:26:57,690 --> 00:26:59,310 And sometimes, like not having the. 469 00:27:00,014 --> 00:27:01,725 Necessarily the experience, right. 470 00:27:01,725 --> 00:27:02,745 To make those decisions. 471 00:27:02,745 --> 00:27:04,274 So I get that. 472 00:27:04,395 --> 00:27:09,735 Um, but of revisiting things from a place of knowledge and making 473 00:27:09,735 --> 00:27:11,235 very intentional decisions. 474 00:27:11,475 --> 00:27:11,835 Yeah. 475 00:27:12,165 --> 00:27:17,620 And you know, things have really expanded with the use of AI for us and. 476 00:27:18,854 --> 00:27:22,485 We both worked together on Finnegan's project and they, we 477 00:27:22,485 --> 00:27:23,715 published a case study about it. 478 00:27:23,715 --> 00:27:25,064 So this is in the public domain. 479 00:27:25,064 --> 00:27:25,155 Mm-hmm. 480 00:27:25,514 --> 00:27:27,614 But they did something really interesting. 481 00:27:27,764 --> 00:27:35,175 Um, so they were an early adopter of Azure OpenAI, and so we. 482 00:27:35,879 --> 00:27:40,860 As part of their intranet project, built a bot that crawled and 483 00:27:40,860 --> 00:27:43,409 indexed all of their policy content. 484 00:27:43,889 --> 00:27:49,290 So this could, this was like, you know, PTO policy, expense reimbursement 485 00:27:49,290 --> 00:27:54,240 policy, sexual harassment policy, like every policy in the firm. 486 00:27:54,840 --> 00:28:00,870 And that information existed like in PDFs, it, some of it was in Wiki pages, 487 00:28:00,899 --> 00:28:03,240 some was in Word documents in the dms. 488 00:28:03,419 --> 00:28:03,510 Mm-hmm. 489 00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:05,340 Others were like. 490 00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:07,590 On their public facing webpage. 491 00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:08,940 Like it was just all over. 492 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,780 So we built a solution that crawled and indexed all that 493 00:28:12,780 --> 00:28:14,700 content using Azure AI search. 494 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,850 And then we built a policy bot that we exposed through their intranet 495 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,510 where they could go ask a question like, Hey, what's my PTO balance? 496 00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:28,800 Or what's the ethical limit on, um, receiving gifts from vendors or whatever. 497 00:28:29,250 --> 00:28:29,340 Mm-hmm. 498 00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:31,560 And, and that was a huge hit. 499 00:28:31,950 --> 00:28:32,880 Um, but. 500 00:28:33,690 --> 00:28:42,630 You know, it's like we, we have over 50 am law clients, and I, I can count the 501 00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:47,910 number on one hand that have kind of gone to that level of sophistication. 502 00:28:47,910 --> 00:28:52,080 Finnegan's a decent sized firm, but you know, they're, they're in the AM law 503 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,210 for sure, but it's not like we have some firms that are bigger in the AM law, 10 504 00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:00,360 or 20, and we haven't gotten there yet. 505 00:29:00,390 --> 00:29:01,830 It's like, so I don't know. 506 00:29:01,830 --> 00:29:02,640 Are you seeing. 507 00:29:03,465 --> 00:29:08,114 Are you seeing firms move up the sophistication spectrum with 508 00:29:08,114 --> 00:29:09,764 their digital workplace solutions? 509 00:29:09,764 --> 00:29:11,625 Or is it still a lot of status quo? 510 00:29:13,395 --> 00:29:17,459 You know, I see firms really wanting to push the envelope more, and it, 511 00:29:17,465 --> 00:29:21,225 it usually starts out that way, but very often as, as things move 512 00:29:21,225 --> 00:29:22,604 forward, it kind of scales back. 513 00:29:22,814 --> 00:29:26,175 So there's still sort of that more conservative or maybe the unknown. 514 00:29:26,834 --> 00:29:31,364 I do think we'll see more with things like what, uh, what Finnegan did. 515 00:29:31,364 --> 00:29:32,235 I think we'll see. 516 00:29:32,295 --> 00:29:34,905 It is just, it's just a better experience. 517 00:29:34,905 --> 00:29:35,205 Right. 518 00:29:35,325 --> 00:29:39,615 Um, and policy policy's just one example. 519 00:29:39,855 --> 00:29:42,735 These are just, as you said, buried in all types of documents 520 00:29:42,735 --> 00:29:43,665 and all kinds of formats. 521 00:29:43,665 --> 00:29:44,775 No one can find anything. 522 00:29:45,615 --> 00:29:49,725 Um, so I think they're, they're gonna be a little slow on that 523 00:29:49,725 --> 00:29:52,125 side, but I think they'll catch up. 524 00:29:52,815 --> 00:29:53,685 Um, I hope. 525 00:29:53,925 --> 00:29:54,345 Yeah. 526 00:29:54,765 --> 00:29:59,655 Well we are, we're doing, um, we're, where, where I'm seeing more traction 527 00:29:59,655 --> 00:30:01,545 with this is on the extranet side. 528 00:30:02,115 --> 00:30:06,885 So we have two cli, like we just launched our Extranet platform in May. 529 00:30:07,245 --> 00:30:13,215 We've been so busy, like we just, we got lucky in a lot of ways with our 530 00:30:13,215 --> 00:30:18,765 timing around intranet because all these big firms were moving to the cloud. 531 00:30:19,125 --> 00:30:23,205 Like the typical sequence for a big firm moving to the cloud is they'll 532 00:30:23,205 --> 00:30:25,575 typically move like messaging, like email. 533 00:30:26,085 --> 00:30:26,175 Mm-hmm. 534 00:30:26,415 --> 00:30:26,535 Right. 535 00:30:26,535 --> 00:30:28,545 That goes first Then. 536 00:30:28,905 --> 00:30:34,815 Maybe the DMS or, and then like the ancillary M 365 workloads like 537 00:30:34,815 --> 00:30:40,605 SharePoint, those kind of happen ne next so that we, there was a big wave 538 00:30:40,605 --> 00:30:47,355 in like 20 22, 20 23 when we were, and we don't have any competition. 539 00:30:47,385 --> 00:30:48,945 It's either us or custom dev. 540 00:30:49,635 --> 00:30:54,495 There's handshake that really is not doing anything in the marketplace, and 541 00:30:54,495 --> 00:30:57,435 so it's really just us or custom dev. 542 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:04,620 Um, but on the extranet side, so it took us a while to, to get extranet out 543 00:31:04,620 --> 00:31:06,210 the door 'cause we were so damn busy. 544 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:13,140 But, um, so we have two firms, um, that are doing AI scenarios, that are 545 00:31:13,140 --> 00:31:14,640 client facing that are really cool. 546 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,860 One of 'em is a labor and employment firm who they have this curated data 547 00:31:19,860 --> 00:31:21,930 set with all the labor and employment. 548 00:31:22,545 --> 00:31:26,775 Regulations and their customers log into a portal that they pay 549 00:31:26,775 --> 00:31:33,135 for and they peruse all of the, um, regulatory updates for each state. 550 00:31:34,005 --> 00:31:34,905 Like, that's great. 551 00:31:35,355 --> 00:31:35,715 Cool. 552 00:31:35,715 --> 00:31:37,815 We said, Hey, what if we crawl and index that? 553 00:31:37,815 --> 00:31:41,085 And then you've got all their employment documents and your DMS, 554 00:31:41,115 --> 00:31:43,995 their employment agreements that are employee handbooks, and we run 555 00:31:43,995 --> 00:31:47,205 an Azure OpenAI exception process. 556 00:31:47,595 --> 00:31:50,835 And then when we get an exception, we create a work item in Power Automate. 557 00:31:50,835 --> 00:31:55,605 We route it to the attorney responsible for the relationship, they validate 'em, 558 00:31:55,605 --> 00:31:59,025 and then that gets pushed to the client's portal and they can have a dashboard. 559 00:31:59,715 --> 00:32:00,705 That's pretty cool. 560 00:32:01,125 --> 00:32:02,115 Um, very cool. 561 00:32:02,235 --> 00:32:02,835 Yeah. 562 00:32:02,835 --> 00:32:06,195 And then we have another firm who's doing a, they have something 563 00:32:06,195 --> 00:32:07,515 called a virtual library. 564 00:32:08,295 --> 00:32:12,075 So they, it's a Canadian firm and they've, like, again, this is, 565 00:32:12,435 --> 00:32:16,875 if, if a firm has like a really high, highly curated data set. 566 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,360 It's a perfect candidate to throw AI at, right? 567 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:21,885 Like people think. 568 00:32:21,885 --> 00:32:22,525 Yeah, absolutely. 569 00:32:22,755 --> 00:32:26,610 Like throw AI at your DMS mm, bad idea. 570 00:32:26,615 --> 00:32:28,470 You're gonna get, you're gonna get a lot of junk back. 571 00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:32,160 It's so, the signal to noise ratio is so low. 572 00:32:32,850 --> 00:32:39,210 Um, but yeah, so we're, we're excited to see firms like take that next step 573 00:32:39,210 --> 00:32:41,805 and do some client facing AI stuff. 574 00:32:43,245 --> 00:32:43,875 I am too. 575 00:32:43,875 --> 00:32:47,685 I'm very excited, um, to see where everything goes with the 576 00:32:47,685 --> 00:32:49,065 extra nets you're, you're doing. 577 00:32:49,125 --> 00:32:54,885 I mean, it's such a great selling point and I can't imagine any big company 578 00:32:54,885 --> 00:33:02,050 not, not sort of valuing, uh, one law firm relationship over another if 579 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,145 they have access to that information. 580 00:33:05,564 --> 00:33:06,195 Totally. 581 00:33:06,254 --> 00:33:06,675 Yeah. 582 00:33:06,675 --> 00:33:09,105 And we're, we don't have a lot of competition in that space either. 583 00:33:09,495 --> 00:33:12,345 Uh, there's some, there's somebody out there, I won't say their name. 584 00:33:12,405 --> 00:33:16,274 Everybody knows who they are, but not much is changing over there. 585 00:33:16,845 --> 00:33:17,955 Uh, okay. 586 00:33:17,955 --> 00:33:21,345 What, uh, I wanna, one other topic I wanted to talk to you about was like 587 00:33:21,345 --> 00:33:23,205 build versus buy, because mm-hmm. 588 00:33:24,014 --> 00:33:30,314 We've both seen some challenges around when like law firms try and 589 00:33:30,314 --> 00:33:33,105 go down the custom dev path, in fact. 590 00:33:33,735 --> 00:33:36,405 Again, without saying names, there's one firm in, in particular that 591 00:33:36,405 --> 00:33:40,784 you did a bunch of work for, like the, they were all ready to go 592 00:33:40,784 --> 00:33:42,885 and then firm changed their mind. 593 00:33:42,885 --> 00:33:47,445 It's like there's so much like support, like care and feeding that has to 594 00:33:47,445 --> 00:33:54,105 go into that system that, you know, even if you hire a vendor, outside 595 00:33:54,105 --> 00:33:58,485 vendor to help you build it, are, are you gonna have your IT resources? 596 00:33:58,485 --> 00:34:02,115 Like, is that the highest and best use of their time to sit around and. 597 00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:04,410 Manage some custom dev. 598 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,390 Uh, what has your experience been? 599 00:34:06,510 --> 00:34:06,840 Yeah. 600 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,429 In the custom dev world, I mean, we do see it happen either, either firms 601 00:34:11,429 --> 00:34:16,470 working with, uh, other external vendors or they have the resources internally. 602 00:34:16,530 --> 00:34:22,350 But, you know, you, you have to have the dedicated headcount who are not just the 603 00:34:22,350 --> 00:34:27,000 creation, which can take, you know, as you know, I mean many months, the maintenance 604 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,700 support, managing the ongoing updates. 605 00:34:30,179 --> 00:34:31,200 Uh, and you need. 606 00:34:31,590 --> 00:34:32,699 More than one person. 607 00:34:32,850 --> 00:34:36,420 And these, these individuals have to be, be solely responsible. 608 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:42,810 They can't be juggling other, other high priority issues when something is 609 00:34:42,989 --> 00:34:45,929 broken or when they're trying to create an internet and there's a timeline. 610 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,969 So I think there's a realistic assessment of long term, long term 611 00:34:50,969 --> 00:34:56,040 support capabilities and looking at the cost benefit analysis, 612 00:34:56,429 --> 00:34:57,645 um, you're, you're paying. 613 00:34:58,500 --> 00:34:58,950 Salary. 614 00:34:58,980 --> 00:35:00,420 I mean, you own a business. 615 00:35:00,420 --> 00:35:01,200 I own a business. 616 00:35:01,290 --> 00:35:06,240 We all know what salaries are and what the cost, the, the benefits and the 617 00:35:06,330 --> 00:35:11,700 whatever you tack on, on top of that and look at, okay, I, I can do that. 618 00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:15,960 Or I can work with a, you know, another vendor who has a product 619 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,680 that's, they've done this a million times, this is what they do, this 620 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,600 is all they do and for support. 621 00:35:21,660 --> 00:35:22,800 So I think it's, um. 622 00:35:24,075 --> 00:35:28,515 It's, uh, a very tough call, I think, um, to bring, or a very tough 623 00:35:28,515 --> 00:35:32,025 decision to say, we're gonna do this all internally and support it. 624 00:35:32,565 --> 00:35:36,675 'cause the other thing is, um, there's a lot of bespoke 625 00:35:36,675 --> 00:35:38,445 requirements firms have, right? 626 00:35:38,505 --> 00:35:43,785 And so having a, a small team internally who's trying to manage 627 00:35:43,785 --> 00:35:48,525 all that and who has the skill sets is, uh, can get very complicated. 628 00:35:49,065 --> 00:35:49,455 Yeah. 629 00:35:50,115 --> 00:35:50,690 Um, I think. 630 00:35:52,410 --> 00:35:54,420 Uh, who was I talking to? 631 00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:55,770 It was Kyle Poe. 632 00:35:55,770 --> 00:35:56,220 Who? 633 00:35:56,580 --> 00:35:57,150 From Lara. 634 00:35:57,150 --> 00:35:57,270 Mm-hmm. 635 00:35:57,930 --> 00:36:04,200 And we were talking about he, he did a custom extranet solution for Morgan 636 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,029 Lewis when he was on the law firm side. 637 00:36:06,330 --> 00:36:08,160 And we were joking about how. 638 00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:10,740 Devs love to dev, right? 639 00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:13,890 If you've got some devs on staff, like they'd love to dev, but you know 640 00:36:13,890 --> 00:36:18,540 what they don't love to do is support and maintenance and like they wanna 641 00:36:18,540 --> 00:36:20,580 build the cool thing and then move on. 642 00:36:20,580 --> 00:36:20,640 Yeah. 643 00:36:20,910 --> 00:36:23,340 That's something that gets lost a lot of times. 644 00:36:23,340 --> 00:36:27,300 Like there's a ton of enthusiasm from the internal tech team. 645 00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:29,700 Like, let's build this, like we can totally build this. 646 00:36:29,705 --> 00:36:29,715 Mm-hmm. 647 00:36:30,090 --> 00:36:32,190 Like, okay, are you also gonna support it? 648 00:36:32,490 --> 00:36:32,740 Are you gonna. 649 00:36:33,055 --> 00:36:35,154 Are you gonna maintain all the integrations? 650 00:36:35,365 --> 00:36:37,194 Are you gonna handle all the enhancements? 651 00:36:37,194 --> 00:36:38,964 Are you gonna build out the training materials? 652 00:36:39,234 --> 00:36:41,515 Like are you gonna QA this thing? 653 00:36:41,515 --> 00:36:43,884 All that other stuff that comes with it. 654 00:36:43,884 --> 00:36:47,904 There's a lot of other stuff that don't, you just mentioned like training and all. 655 00:36:47,904 --> 00:36:51,504 There's so many things that are not considered outside of the dev. 656 00:36:51,835 --> 00:36:52,375 Totally. 657 00:36:52,705 --> 00:36:53,125 Yeah. 658 00:36:53,185 --> 00:36:55,674 Um, and employee turnover's huge too. 659 00:36:56,365 --> 00:36:56,815 Um. 660 00:36:57,165 --> 00:36:59,955 What happens just with, not with just the knowledge that goes out 661 00:36:59,955 --> 00:37:04,754 the door, but if you don't replace people in, in a timely fashion, how 662 00:37:04,754 --> 00:37:06,075 those things are still getting done. 663 00:37:06,194 --> 00:37:09,524 'cause it, it doesn't, it's not gonna stop just because you don't have the resources. 664 00:37:09,854 --> 00:37:10,725 Exactly. 665 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:12,630 Yeah, it's amazing. 666 00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:18,810 So for 14 years we were like the custom dev shop in legal, like, and we ran 667 00:37:18,810 --> 00:37:25,050 into so many issues handing off what we built to the internal tech teams. 668 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:25,290 Mm-hmm. 669 00:37:25,529 --> 00:37:28,230 Even when we, you know, and after, after this happened, a couple of 670 00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:30,390 times we started to get proactive. 671 00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:35,185 Like before we would even sign a client up on a dev project, we would say, look. 672 00:37:36,060 --> 00:37:39,000 Loop your IT team in here because they're gonna have to support 673 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,319 whatever it is we're building. 674 00:37:40,319 --> 00:37:41,640 So they should be at the table. 675 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:46,799 And what we, what would happen a lot of times is we would get half-assed 676 00:37:46,830 --> 00:37:51,810 engagement from it, you know, not paying attention or just sending some 677 00:37:51,810 --> 00:37:53,430 low level person to the meetings. 678 00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:54,569 'cause they got other priorities. 679 00:37:54,569 --> 00:37:55,169 I get it. 680 00:37:55,859 --> 00:37:57,990 But then, but then during kickoff. 681 00:37:58,845 --> 00:37:59,685 Handoff. 682 00:37:59,865 --> 00:38:01,395 They're like, whoa, wait a second. 683 00:38:01,395 --> 00:38:02,955 You guys used React js? 684 00:38:02,955 --> 00:38:04,995 We don't have anybody on staff that knows that. 685 00:38:04,995 --> 00:38:05,115 Mm-hmm. 686 00:38:05,355 --> 00:38:06,705 You're using the office graph. 687 00:38:06,705 --> 00:38:07,995 We don't even know what that is. 688 00:38:07,995 --> 00:38:11,774 Like Azure, like we're still on prem. 689 00:38:12,105 --> 00:38:12,734 You know what I mean? 690 00:38:12,734 --> 00:38:13,634 And it's like, yep. 691 00:38:13,875 --> 00:38:18,734 Uh, no matter what we did, we would end up, and I, and I get it, man, like. 692 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,140 I'm not throwing shade at the IT teams. 693 00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:22,740 I get it. 694 00:38:22,740 --> 00:38:25,350 You're busy, you're pulled in a million different directions. 695 00:38:25,470 --> 00:38:25,560 Mm-hmm. 696 00:38:25,799 --> 00:38:30,029 You're under-resourced, but that's why going down the custom dev 697 00:38:30,029 --> 00:38:32,790 path is probably not a good idea. 698 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,450 Um, but yeah, it, it can be very slippery slope. 699 00:38:37,049 --> 00:38:37,170 Yeah. 700 00:38:37,590 --> 00:38:42,270 Um, and usually, usually if we get in before a firm is 701 00:38:42,270 --> 00:38:45,210 really like pot committed, like gone too far down the path. 702 00:38:46,260 --> 00:38:51,120 Um, sometimes even after Ogletree Ogletree, we built their 703 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,670 custom intranet as acro wire. 704 00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:57,780 And then when we, they, they had not only launched it, they had, 705 00:38:57,930 --> 00:39:01,795 they won two awards, they won Ulta's Innovative Project of the Year and Wow. 706 00:39:02,460 --> 00:39:05,130 And the step two, um. 707 00:39:05,819 --> 00:39:06,450 Gold. 708 00:39:06,450 --> 00:39:08,040 That's like a, not a legal thing. 709 00:39:08,759 --> 00:39:12,569 So won two awards and they were like, we wanna move to info dash because the 710 00:39:12,569 --> 00:39:16,500 care and feeding of this custom thing y'all built for us is, it's too much. 711 00:39:17,370 --> 00:39:20,700 Um, so I, I would imagine you've seen all these pain points as well. 712 00:39:20,884 --> 00:39:21,625 We, we have. 713 00:39:21,990 --> 00:39:22,919 We have for sure. 714 00:39:22,919 --> 00:39:29,490 And, and like, one of the things, I think that's it, it, it, it sort of feeds our, 715 00:39:29,490 --> 00:39:32,040 our, our working relationship or is that. 716 00:39:33,495 --> 00:39:37,095 When we are designing and we're working with firms and we're trying to maintain 717 00:39:37,245 --> 00:39:42,315 like the out of the box info dash product as much as possible, there's always 718 00:39:42,315 --> 00:39:46,755 the thing that clients want or request that don't always fit into that, right? 719 00:39:47,205 --> 00:39:47,325 Mm-hmm. 720 00:39:48,495 --> 00:39:53,025 I think, I think my team is pretty good about this, but we set up checks 721 00:39:53,025 --> 00:39:58,035 with your team to make sure that here's what the client wants to do 722 00:39:58,035 --> 00:39:59,595 and needs to do for these reasons. 723 00:39:59,595 --> 00:40:03,585 So before we present it, we wanna make sure we're not blowing anything up. 724 00:40:03,735 --> 00:40:03,795 Yeah. 725 00:40:04,185 --> 00:40:07,215 Before we show it to the client and they fall in love with it. 726 00:40:07,215 --> 00:40:08,145 And then we have an issue. 727 00:40:08,145 --> 00:40:08,535 So. 728 00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:13,259 We are trying to set expectations with our work and how that relates 729 00:40:13,259 --> 00:40:16,350 to what they're doing on the info desk platform before we hand it 730 00:40:16,350 --> 00:40:20,130 over and, you know, things go south. 731 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,360 So we're, we're constantly having those checks as we're, we're working 'cause 732 00:40:24,810 --> 00:40:26,400 you know, 'cause those things do come up. 733 00:40:26,404 --> 00:40:27,420 So they do. 734 00:40:27,420 --> 00:40:31,500 And it's, I think as a law firm for, for the law firm listeners out 735 00:40:31,500 --> 00:40:35,400 there, I think it's important to find vendors who've worked together before. 736 00:40:36,345 --> 00:40:42,615 Um, you know, you can't always get that, but when it is available, put a premium on 737 00:40:42,615 --> 00:40:45,795 it because again, you guys understand us. 738 00:40:46,215 --> 00:40:50,955 We understand you, and there's a level of trust that, hey, I know Brandy's team. 739 00:40:50,985 --> 00:40:54,435 If somebody goes and asks for a dancing sausage on their home screen, 740 00:40:54,945 --> 00:40:58,125 that your team is gonna push back and go, are you sure you want a 741 00:40:58,125 --> 00:40:59,985 dancing sausage on your home screen? 742 00:41:00,045 --> 00:41:00,285 Yes. 743 00:41:00,675 --> 00:41:03,645 And you'll try and manage that. 744 00:41:04,050 --> 00:41:08,040 Ahead of reaching out to us and not promise them that you'll 745 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,890 be able to dancing sausage to deliver a dancing sausage. 746 00:41:14,345 --> 00:41:14,835 Exactly. 747 00:41:15,225 --> 00:41:15,515 Yeah. 748 00:41:16,260 --> 00:41:16,830 Exactly. 749 00:41:16,830 --> 00:41:21,435 And the team knows if, if I'm, you know, if I, I. If they're working on 750 00:41:21,435 --> 00:41:24,645 something and, and we really feel like we hit a roadblock and maybe I haven't 751 00:41:24,645 --> 00:41:28,455 been on, on, all the calls are involved, like they know when to pull me in or 752 00:41:28,455 --> 00:41:31,995 when to pull somebody from your team in to say, all right, we need a, we have 753 00:41:31,995 --> 00:41:33,885 to regroup, we need a sanity check. 754 00:41:33,915 --> 00:41:35,925 We have some concerns. 755 00:41:35,925 --> 00:41:38,805 So, um, we, we don't assume we know anything. 756 00:41:39,825 --> 00:41:45,765 Um, so we, we like to make sure we're, you know, leveraging our resources, which 757 00:41:46,305 --> 00:41:49,455 is the client and, and also your team when working through these projects. 758 00:41:49,799 --> 00:41:50,580 Exactly. 759 00:41:51,149 --> 00:41:51,450 Yeah. 760 00:41:51,569 --> 00:41:59,640 Um, what about, just kind of last topic, what I, I, I know we have been 761 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:07,439 part of two projects that have won Ilda's highest recognition and like 762 00:42:07,439 --> 00:42:10,980 the, the step two thing, we, we built the PLA and Fish and Richardson won it 763 00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:16,169 in like 2017, a product that we built for 'em back in our acro wire days. 764 00:42:16,169 --> 00:42:17,730 And, um. 765 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:27,810 We learned a lot from seeing the difference in approach when clients 766 00:42:27,810 --> 00:42:29,160 really hit it out of the park. 767 00:42:29,279 --> 00:42:34,319 And if you are winning like the top recognition by elta, you're probably, 768 00:42:34,319 --> 00:42:35,640 you've done some things right. 769 00:42:36,569 --> 00:42:39,210 I'm curious, what's your perspective on this? 770 00:42:39,210 --> 00:42:43,049 Like I would say probably a lot of the things that you talked about, 771 00:42:43,049 --> 00:42:44,700 like getting the right people. 772 00:42:45,270 --> 00:42:49,305 At the table table and getting buy-in across, but I don't know, like what, yeah. 773 00:42:49,305 --> 00:42:51,990 What has been your experience for the cust, the customers 774 00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:52,890 that really do it right? 775 00:42:52,890 --> 00:42:56,430 Like how are the, how, how, how is their approach different? 776 00:42:58,470 --> 00:43:00,180 They have done the research. 777 00:43:01,380 --> 00:43:05,670 Or, or, um, involve somebody to help them do the research, to ask 778 00:43:05,670 --> 00:43:08,279 the questions, to document it. 779 00:43:08,340 --> 00:43:11,610 So there's, every decision is supported with strategy. 780 00:43:11,759 --> 00:43:17,850 Like, we made this decision because of x. Um, it's not all based in aesthetics or 781 00:43:17,850 --> 00:43:20,340 visual or design or subjectivity, right? 782 00:43:20,340 --> 00:43:21,930 It supports the firm's brand. 783 00:43:22,575 --> 00:43:24,194 It supports a firm's culture. 784 00:43:24,795 --> 00:43:28,455 Um, when the squeaky wheel comes in and says, I don't like that. 785 00:43:28,455 --> 00:43:29,565 Why did you do that? 786 00:43:29,865 --> 00:43:32,895 We can say, well, this isn't subjective decision here. 787 00:43:32,895 --> 00:43:38,595 This is why, this is why this was done, because your users set X. Right? 788 00:43:38,595 --> 00:43:41,415 So most of them have done that research. 789 00:43:41,865 --> 00:43:45,615 Um, I would say all of them have done that, that initial discovery work. 790 00:43:46,005 --> 00:43:51,134 That supports the decisions and they have brought along the, the right 791 00:43:51,134 --> 00:43:53,205 people along for the ride early on. 792 00:43:53,205 --> 00:43:58,125 So, uh, who, who were, uh, who's feeding some of that discovery work? 793 00:43:58,125 --> 00:43:59,775 Who are we asking the questions of? 794 00:44:00,585 --> 00:44:02,235 Who needs to review it? 795 00:44:02,295 --> 00:44:03,674 Who needs to sign off on it? 796 00:44:03,674 --> 00:44:06,765 And then who are the people we have to keep in the loop so they know this 797 00:44:06,765 --> 00:44:09,555 thing is happening and they're not gonna be surprised by it at the end. 798 00:44:10,245 --> 00:44:12,404 So that sort of level and, and I would say. 799 00:44:13,185 --> 00:44:16,935 So all of that, if I had to, in a nutshell, I would say not doing it in 800 00:44:16,935 --> 00:44:20,775 a vacuum because that's the worst thing and you don't end up with a good product. 801 00:44:21,794 --> 00:44:23,654 What about the Dan dancing sausage? 802 00:44:23,654 --> 00:44:27,165 Do you recommend that or, uh, is that best practice? 803 00:44:28,004 --> 00:44:30,734 As much as I think we would all like to see a dancing sausage 804 00:44:30,734 --> 00:44:32,415 now, no, I do not recommend it. 805 00:44:34,125 --> 00:44:35,265 That's good stuff. 806 00:44:35,355 --> 00:44:39,194 Well, um, I appreciate you, uh, we're, we're out of time, but I, I 807 00:44:39,194 --> 00:44:43,095 appreciate you spending a few minutes with us and sharing your perspective. 808 00:44:43,634 --> 00:44:47,895 Um, I know we've had a, a really good working relationship and we 809 00:44:47,895 --> 00:44:49,754 recommend you guys all the time for. 810 00:44:51,210 --> 00:44:57,690 Design work, public facing sites, and when clients want, um, want design 811 00:44:57,810 --> 00:45:02,580 applied to the, you know, they don't want the out of the box experience. 812 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,010 Um, so keep up the good work. 813 00:45:05,070 --> 00:45:05,790 Appreciate you. 814 00:45:05,790 --> 00:45:06,715 Thank you, thank you. 815 00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:08,190 It's always great to work with you, Gus. 816 00:45:08,220 --> 00:45:09,420 Yeah, absolutely. 817 00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:12,450 And, and, uh, look forward to doing more, more work together. 818 00:45:13,050 --> 00:45:18,540 Um, fi on a final note, what, how do people find out more about what you do? 819 00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:22,020 Uh, knox design strategy.com. 820 00:45:22,140 --> 00:45:26,850 It lists, um, services, case studies, and I'm always available. 821 00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:28,410 Hop on a Zoom or a call. 822 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:29,460 Awesome. 823 00:45:30,060 --> 00:45:30,299 All. 824 00:45:30,299 --> 00:45:30,569 Excellent. 825 00:45:30,839 --> 00:45:33,870 Well, listen, have a good holiday and, uh, and we'll chat soon. 826 00:45:33,870 --> 00:45:33,964 You too. 827 00:45:34,134 --> 00:45:35,040 Thank you, Ted. 828 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:35,609 Have a good one. 829 00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:35,940 All right. 830 00:45:35,940 --> 00:45:36,390 Take care. 831 00:45:36,420 --> 00:45:36,964 Okay, bye-bye. 832 00:45:37,799 --> 00:45:40,049 Thanks for listening to Legal Innovation Spotlight. 833 00:45:40,620 --> 00:45:44,069 If you found value in this chat, hit the subscribe button to be notified 834 00:45:44,069 --> 00:45:45,569 when we release new episodes. 835 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,779 We'd also really appreciate it if you could take a moment to rate 836 00:45:48,779 --> 00:45:51,420 us and leave us a review wherever you're listening right now. 837 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,255 Your feedback helps us provide you with top-notch content. 00:00:02,009 Brandy, thanks for joining me today. 2 00:00:02,790 --> 00:00:03,840 Thanks for having me, Ted. 3 00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:05,190 Great to be here. 4 00:00:05,340 --> 00:00:09,300 Yeah, so you and I have known each other for a while. 5 00:00:09,390 --> 00:00:15,630 We kind of play in the same space in the doing law firm, internets extranets, and 6 00:00:16,350 --> 00:00:18,420 we build 'em and you make 'em pretty. 7 00:00:18,630 --> 00:00:25,920 Um, so you and I have had a chance to, uh, collaborate on a couple law firm 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,520 projects, and I was excited about. 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:36,750 Getting you on and talking and doing some, um, experience share around 10 00:00:36,750 --> 00:00:38,519 all the, all your travels in legal. 11 00:00:38,519 --> 00:00:41,760 I think you've been at this as long as I have, if not longer. 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,910 So, uh, but before we jump in, um, why don't you just give us a quick intro, who 13 00:00:47,910 --> 00:00:48,905 you are, what you do, where you do it. 14 00:00:50,055 --> 00:00:50,745 Sure, sure. 15 00:00:51,195 --> 00:00:55,185 So I'm Brandy Knox, principal and creative director of Knox Design Strategy. 16 00:00:55,185 --> 00:00:59,985 We are a branding and digital design agency based here in New York. 17 00:01:00,614 --> 00:01:04,545 Uh, I am also the CEO and founder of Knox, which is a legal 18 00:01:04,575 --> 00:01:08,384 tech startup that streamlines collaboration for litigation teams. 19 00:01:09,250 --> 00:01:09,740 Awesome. 20 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:15,854 So, and um, so I've worked you with you in. 21 00:01:15,945 --> 00:01:22,664 Uh, the Knox capacity and, um, yeah, so for those that, that, that don't know, 22 00:01:22,664 --> 00:01:28,125 info Dash is a legal internet and extranet platform, and we focus on large law firms. 23 00:01:28,845 --> 00:01:33,195 And is Knox focus, is it solely legal? 24 00:01:33,195 --> 00:01:34,184 Is it big law? 25 00:01:34,184 --> 00:01:35,085 Is it mid law? 26 00:01:35,085 --> 00:01:35,919 What's, what does that look like? 27 00:01:37,950 --> 00:01:39,900 We are focused on law firms. 28 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:43,080 Uh, we do some work for law firm adjacent businesses. 29 00:01:43,140 --> 00:01:45,870 Um, that's really our law firms are really our target. 30 00:01:45,870 --> 00:01:50,220 We sometimes get a call from another professional services firm in another 31 00:01:50,220 --> 00:01:54,810 area who thinks that our, you know, our experience translates well and you 32 00:01:54,810 --> 00:01:57,360 know, always B2B, and so we take those. 33 00:01:58,140 --> 00:01:59,910 And how does, I would say scale, oh, sorry. 34 00:02:00,390 --> 00:02:02,070 Scale of firm really depends. 35 00:02:02,070 --> 00:02:03,600 Uh, it depends on the project. 36 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,770 We might be in the, the sort of the smaller mid market firm, and then we may 37 00:02:07,770 --> 00:02:09,780 be, you know, working with the AML 200. 38 00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:10,560 It varies. 39 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:11,700 Yeah. 40 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:13,740 I've worked with you and, and bigger firms. 41 00:02:13,740 --> 00:02:16,170 How does, I'm kind of curious. 42 00:02:16,170 --> 00:02:22,050 Like, so for us, having a legal focus is beneficial because like with our product. 43 00:02:22,590 --> 00:02:27,780 We have integrations with all the legal back office systems and like 44 00:02:27,780 --> 00:02:33,720 there are a few like horizontal players in the internet and extranet space, 45 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,049 but they, they, to be honest with you, they don't compete very well. 46 00:02:37,049 --> 00:02:39,630 They've got like low single digit market share. 47 00:02:40,140 --> 00:02:40,230 Mm-hmm. 48 00:02:40,470 --> 00:02:41,880 And us understanding. 49 00:02:42,780 --> 00:02:47,580 Law firm needs and understanding the culture and like what knowledge management 50 00:02:47,580 --> 00:02:53,520 is like, how does, how does, like having a focus on legal help in the design process? 51 00:02:54,750 --> 00:02:54,900 Yeah. 52 00:02:54,900 --> 00:02:58,875 Well, it really helps us understand all the many different. 53 00:03:00,195 --> 00:03:04,695 Groups and anything from the different players, the different groups, the 54 00:03:04,695 --> 00:03:09,704 tech, the technology, the content, the everything down to like how they 55 00:03:09,704 --> 00:03:14,055 store legal precedents, how they operate, the culture, all these things. 56 00:03:14,115 --> 00:03:17,865 Uh, over year, the years of experience of working with law firms, there's. 57 00:03:18,180 --> 00:03:19,320 Probably not much. 58 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,210 We haven't touched at some point. 59 00:03:21,630 --> 00:03:25,799 So there's a lot of knowledge about operations and how 60 00:03:25,799 --> 00:03:27,060 they get things done, right? 61 00:03:27,060 --> 00:03:28,049 That's really important. 62 00:03:28,049 --> 00:03:32,880 So we talk about design and we talk about the functionality, but 63 00:03:33,630 --> 00:03:38,160 it's really also looking at what we're surfacing and the content. 64 00:03:38,220 --> 00:03:42,450 And as much as firms are different, there's similarities. 65 00:03:42,450 --> 00:03:45,785 So as much of the process is about knowing what questions to ask. 66 00:03:46,545 --> 00:03:50,355 How to drill down in order to solve some of the problems that firms have. 67 00:03:50,955 --> 00:03:54,735 I that, and I would imagine, you know, you, you're, you're small 68 00:03:54,735 --> 00:04:02,835 like us and like having a focus allows you to be top of mind. 69 00:04:03,105 --> 00:04:06,735 And, you know, that's hard to do when you're spread horizontally 70 00:04:06,735 --> 00:04:08,625 across many different industries. 71 00:04:09,495 --> 00:04:13,035 You know, being being focused allows us. 72 00:04:13,845 --> 00:04:19,485 To know what events folks go to, build relationships over many years. 73 00:04:19,485 --> 00:04:22,125 And then when people think of, Hey, I have an intranet, or 74 00:04:22,125 --> 00:04:24,735 Extranet need, they, they call us. 75 00:04:24,735 --> 00:04:27,765 I would imagine the same applies to you a hundred percent. 76 00:04:27,855 --> 00:04:28,575 Absolutely. 77 00:04:28,575 --> 00:04:32,475 I mean, it's, it helps with relationship building, word of mouth. 78 00:04:32,475 --> 00:04:35,565 Even people who haven't met you have probably heard of you, so. 79 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,270 They'll call on you and some, you know, sometimes we absolutely get 80 00:04:39,270 --> 00:04:43,200 calls for things we can help with and sometimes they're not things we can 81 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,070 help with, but because we know the space so well, we can always refer, 82 00:04:47,310 --> 00:04:52,349 work out or say, we don't do that, but here's who you should speak to, or you. 83 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:56,430 Someone's building something, designing something, there's something 84 00:04:56,430 --> 00:04:58,050 tangential to what we're doing. 85 00:04:58,050 --> 00:05:02,100 That isn't something we do in-house, like info dash and we can say, okay, 86 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:03,780 here's who we should partner with that. 87 00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:07,500 And, and also because we have those relationships that are consistent, 88 00:05:07,740 --> 00:05:11,850 clients worry less 'cause they know we've worked together, they understand, 89 00:05:11,910 --> 00:05:14,160 you know, how you all work, how we work. 90 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,050 And it just makes it seamless for everyone. 91 00:05:16,290 --> 00:05:16,620 Yeah. 92 00:05:17,370 --> 00:05:18,585 Well speaking of that, like. 93 00:05:20,070 --> 00:05:25,650 How, one of the things that you do that we sometimes do, but would rather not 94 00:05:25,650 --> 00:05:28,349 do, is like requirements gathering. 95 00:05:28,799 --> 00:05:34,500 So for years we were known as acro wire and that was a, uh, 96 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:35,609 we used to call it envisioning. 97 00:05:36,420 --> 00:05:38,490 And envisioning we were a service provider. 98 00:05:38,490 --> 00:05:40,080 We didn't have a product back then. 99 00:05:40,140 --> 00:05:44,400 We actually kind of had the, the, the early beginnings of info dash 100 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,080 started in the acro wire days. 101 00:05:46,110 --> 00:05:51,460 And, um, but for the most part we were just billing time and mm-hmm 102 00:05:52,110 --> 00:05:57,810 we, we were good at delivering services and focused on it. 103 00:05:58,530 --> 00:06:00,840 And as we transition to a product company. 104 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:04,980 It's, you only have so many resources and so many places you 105 00:06:04,980 --> 00:06:07,170 can really focus and be good. 106 00:06:07,860 --> 00:06:07,950 Mm-hmm. 107 00:06:08,190 --> 00:06:11,340 And we're really good at the product stuff and implementing our product. 108 00:06:11,849 --> 00:06:15,900 But in terms of like gathering requirements, we still do it all the time 109 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:17,670 because we're, we're kind of forced to. 110 00:06:18,570 --> 00:06:23,115 But, um, you've done a lot of that work as well. 111 00:06:25,620 --> 00:06:28,590 We used to have like a, we called it our envisioning toolkit. 112 00:06:28,740 --> 00:06:34,440 So it was like we would have a, uh, an inventory of user stories. 113 00:06:34,710 --> 00:06:36,270 We had like over a hundred of them. 114 00:06:36,870 --> 00:06:44,310 Um, we had like low fidelity wire frames for like a client page, a matter 115 00:06:44,310 --> 00:06:49,560 page, a client team page that's more BD focused, all that sort of stuff. 116 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,099 And you probably have a whole playbook too, but like, how. 117 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,270 Who do you engage with when you're doing, like, requirements gathering 118 00:06:57,359 --> 00:06:58,890 and what does that process look like? 119 00:07:00,090 --> 00:07:01,080 Yeah, good question. 120 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:05,010 Uh, we call our process more of a discovery process. 121 00:07:05,039 --> 00:07:09,630 Um, we typically engage the core stakeholders who have, have reached 122 00:07:09,630 --> 00:07:13,919 out, and then a, a few stakeholders around that group, so to speak. 123 00:07:13,919 --> 00:07:19,469 So it usually, these requests come from KM or KM and I, so we'll pull that group in. 124 00:07:20,580 --> 00:07:23,550 Often their technology teams. 125 00:07:23,969 --> 00:07:26,729 So we'll go through some work shopping with a small group, 126 00:07:26,969 --> 00:07:28,440 you know, five to six people. 127 00:07:28,890 --> 00:07:32,550 Uh, we have a series of questions that we ask and we drill deeper depending 128 00:07:32,550 --> 00:07:34,050 on some of the answers that we get. 129 00:07:34,110 --> 00:07:38,219 We look at their existing space, um, talk about their pain points, 130 00:07:38,219 --> 00:07:42,570 and so we come out of that with answers to some questions and more 131 00:07:42,570 --> 00:07:45,030 questions we have for other groups. 132 00:07:45,090 --> 00:07:48,659 And then we drill down more into, you know, ideally. 133 00:07:49,275 --> 00:07:50,415 The specific groups. 134 00:07:50,415 --> 00:07:55,095 So speaking to some of the practice managers and leaders speaking to, uh, 135 00:07:55,095 --> 00:07:59,745 hr, speaking to the various business units, and again, doing that same, going 136 00:07:59,745 --> 00:08:03,075 through that same process with their current space and looking at current 137 00:08:03,075 --> 00:08:09,225 state, future state, uh, but asking very specific questions about workflow. 138 00:08:10,005 --> 00:08:13,455 What issues they have with current workflow pain points. 139 00:08:13,455 --> 00:08:18,975 So we, we don't, we take the conversation broader than just the intranet. 140 00:08:19,275 --> 00:08:24,225 'cause there are many things we can solve with the intranet, but I think in order 141 00:08:24,225 --> 00:08:28,185 to get there, sometimes you have to remove the design and remove the technology from 142 00:08:28,215 --> 00:08:29,805 the conversation, if that makes sense. 143 00:08:30,105 --> 00:08:30,585 Totally. 144 00:08:30,585 --> 00:08:30,795 Yeah. 145 00:08:30,830 --> 00:08:32,775 I, I, we hate the term intranet. 146 00:08:32,775 --> 00:08:36,225 We, we still use it 'cause the market knows what it means, but it. 147 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,500 On the intranet, a, a better word, is really digital workplace. 148 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:40,920 Mm-hmm. 149 00:08:41,220 --> 00:08:42,840 On the, on the intranet side. 150 00:08:42,930 --> 00:08:50,160 And we are the first company to bring together intranet and intranet, and 151 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,110 we call that unified collaboration. 152 00:08:52,470 --> 00:08:52,560 Mm-hmm. 153 00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:56,370 Um, there have, there have been some companies that have tried to do it in 154 00:08:56,370 --> 00:08:58,080 the past but have not been successful. 155 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,570 And I think they did it. 156 00:09:01,530 --> 00:09:02,760 Maybe they were a little early. 157 00:09:03,180 --> 00:09:05,370 And the, and the technology wasn't ready. 158 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,290 Um, but with SharePoint online, it just makes perfect sense. 159 00:09:10,290 --> 00:09:16,890 Like if you had, if you had SharePoint on-prem that, you know, back before 160 00:09:17,010 --> 00:09:21,510 SharePoint online was really viable, you could, you could stand up a 161 00:09:21,510 --> 00:09:25,980 separate SharePoint environment, put it in a DMZ, make it external 162 00:09:25,980 --> 00:09:27,570 facing and build an extra net. 163 00:09:28,065 --> 00:09:33,075 Platform out of it, but it's just, there was a lot of complexity and 164 00:09:33,675 --> 00:09:36,435 um, it was just a, a lot of pain. 165 00:09:36,555 --> 00:09:41,775 So yeah, we're anxious to start using different terminology, but we 166 00:09:41,775 --> 00:09:45,105 gotta wait until the market's ready or people won't know what you do. 167 00:09:45,105 --> 00:09:45,915 And that's not a good thing. 168 00:09:45,915 --> 00:09:46,485 Exactly. 169 00:09:46,785 --> 00:09:47,925 That's never a good thing. 170 00:09:47,925 --> 00:09:54,975 No, but you know, what about like some of the traditionally overlooked voices? 171 00:09:55,965 --> 00:09:59,865 In the law firm space, like, you know, I used to call it the 172 00:09:59,865 --> 00:10:01,814 squeaky wheel problem, so, mm-hmm. 173 00:10:02,055 --> 00:10:05,235 You know, we would, when, when we would come in and do envisioning with 174 00:10:05,235 --> 00:10:09,194 a law firm and try and understand their use cases, there were, there 175 00:10:09,194 --> 00:10:15,314 were pockets of influence within the firm that had a disproportional. 176 00:10:15,735 --> 00:10:23,385 Voice and sometimes that would guide the project in a non-productive 177 00:10:23,385 --> 00:10:25,695 direction, and we weren't. 178 00:10:26,265 --> 00:10:28,935 And it was always a struggle for us. 179 00:10:28,995 --> 00:10:32,595 I don't know, maybe you've cracked the code on how to balance. 180 00:10:33,135 --> 00:10:35,010 How to balance the um. 181 00:10:36,075 --> 00:10:41,085 The feedback and ensure that the people who are actually using this every day, 182 00:10:41,355 --> 00:10:45,495 not just the people who have the most influence in the law firm, are the 183 00:10:45,495 --> 00:10:49,695 ones who also get a seat at the table. 184 00:10:49,695 --> 00:10:52,395 Like how, how do you go about that? 185 00:10:54,045 --> 00:10:54,975 Yeah, absolutely. 186 00:10:54,975 --> 00:10:59,085 I mean, it's, when we go through those early discovery sessions and we start to 187 00:10:59,085 --> 00:11:04,755 drill down into the various groups, we, we try to get individuals from all levels. 188 00:11:05,475 --> 00:11:12,225 So from Par Senior Partners down to, you know, through people who are really 189 00:11:12,225 --> 00:11:16,935 supporting those attorneys, making sure there, there's a lot that they do day 190 00:11:16,935 --> 00:11:21,045 to day and in many ways sometimes may be leveraging these digital workspaces more. 191 00:11:21,555 --> 00:11:25,425 So it's really about bringing everybody to the table and making 192 00:11:25,425 --> 00:11:29,265 sure they have a vo, their voice is heard, but that you understand their 193 00:11:29,564 --> 00:11:31,365 workflow, how they're operating. 194 00:11:31,425 --> 00:11:31,575 Um. 195 00:11:33,959 --> 00:11:38,310 And, you know, going back to the, the squeaky wheel problem, uh, 196 00:11:38,729 --> 00:11:40,354 we, we like to start out with. 197 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,300 Who, who's gonna be, give us a list of who is gonna participate 198 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:48,510 in some of these workshops and meetings and we guide them, right? 199 00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:52,709 So we, we don't want all senior people, we don't want all junior people. 200 00:11:52,709 --> 00:11:54,569 It needs to, it needs to vary. 201 00:11:54,990 --> 00:11:59,010 Um, and that means that sometimes very senior people who don't really have time 202 00:11:59,010 --> 00:12:03,180 or don't wanna be a part of it, but who have a lot of decision making authority. 203 00:12:03,780 --> 00:12:06,300 And sometimes over this week it will need to show up. 204 00:12:06,795 --> 00:12:10,814 Because if the wheel's gonna sweep, we have to talk to the wheel. 205 00:12:10,814 --> 00:12:12,584 So that's part of it. 206 00:12:12,675 --> 00:12:15,255 Um, and we also asked for. 207 00:12:15,915 --> 00:12:20,595 We also ask our, uh, stakeholders to give us feedback on the 208 00:12:20,595 --> 00:12:22,064 participants in the workshop. 209 00:12:22,485 --> 00:12:26,115 So if it's someone who is a real, uh, strong ambassador for 210 00:12:26,115 --> 00:12:29,175 the group and a supporter of the group, we wanna know that. 211 00:12:29,265 --> 00:12:31,214 'cause we can leverage that individual. 212 00:12:31,665 --> 00:12:34,035 We can ask specific questions. 213 00:12:34,064 --> 00:12:37,605 That individual, if it's somebody who is the squeaky wheel, we wanna know 214 00:12:37,605 --> 00:12:39,944 that too because we're prepared for it. 215 00:12:41,354 --> 00:12:43,995 We can ask good follow up, because sometimes the squeaky 216 00:12:43,995 --> 00:12:47,834 will ask for something that they think will solve their problem. 217 00:12:48,224 --> 00:12:50,444 So we wanna answer the squeaky will. 218 00:12:50,474 --> 00:12:53,775 But sometimes if you actually understand more of what the problem 219 00:12:53,775 --> 00:12:56,805 is, there's a different solution that is going to solve for that. 220 00:12:56,984 --> 00:12:57,704 Does that makes sense? 221 00:12:57,734 --> 00:12:58,185 Yeah. 222 00:12:58,425 --> 00:13:01,245 And you want, you want the wheel to squeak at the right time. 223 00:13:01,484 --> 00:13:05,564 If the wheel squeaks too late, and we used to run into that. 224 00:13:05,895 --> 00:13:11,745 A lot where you'd get down into the red zone on the project and then 225 00:13:11,745 --> 00:13:19,485 somebody would parachute in who had disproportionate influence and take us 226 00:13:19,935 --> 00:13:24,525 10 steps backwards and it would slow things down, to be honest with you. 227 00:13:24,525 --> 00:13:28,485 That's why I, I don't really wanna focus on the work now. 228 00:13:28,485 --> 00:13:29,805 It's, there's so much. 229 00:13:30,705 --> 00:13:34,095 Like if I can keep my, so we have a pretty big professional services team. 230 00:13:34,125 --> 00:13:38,445 We're only, I don't know, we've got like 52, 53 employees today. 231 00:13:39,765 --> 00:13:43,845 Almost half of those folks are professional services. 232 00:13:44,055 --> 00:13:49,335 So we deliver a lot of services today and one of our big challenges 233 00:13:49,335 --> 00:13:52,005 with law firms is this start, stop. 234 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,090 You know, motion. 235 00:13:54,090 --> 00:13:54,150 Yeah. 236 00:13:54,780 --> 00:13:58,620 And we've even been, I've been kicking around ideas on how to create 237 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:03,720 pricing incentives, kind of the carrot and stick approach to mm-hmm. 238 00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:07,860 Creating incentives and penalties when things drag out, because, 239 00:14:08,430 --> 00:14:11,490 you know, with an internet project or a digital workplace project. 240 00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:15,810 Sometimes that's not always the highest priority for the firm, and 241 00:14:15,810 --> 00:14:19,260 something will come over the top of it and they'll just want to hit pause. 242 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:24,450 And meanwhile, I've got resources standing by idly that I've gotta like 243 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:29,430 either fill in and then once I get their plate full heading in another 244 00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:35,430 direction, I can't just pivot back when the firm says they're ready and it, it, 245 00:14:35,490 --> 00:14:37,860 it just, it, it becomes challenging. 246 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:39,360 So we've been trying to focus. 247 00:14:39,930 --> 00:14:46,680 Our professional services team on really product related activities because we 248 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,440 can tend to generate momentum there. 249 00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:53,610 We found that there's a lot of stop, start in the requirements gathering. 250 00:14:53,725 --> 00:14:55,560 I I, has that been your experience as well? 251 00:14:55,775 --> 00:14:56,125 There? 252 00:14:56,490 --> 00:14:57,810 There absolutely can be. 253 00:14:57,930 --> 00:15:01,560 And like you said, if, if, if our work takes longer with the client 254 00:15:01,620 --> 00:15:05,550 that you guys are later getting a start, which is never good either. 255 00:15:05,610 --> 00:15:05,970 Um. 256 00:15:06,810 --> 00:15:08,430 There are some stop and starts. 257 00:15:08,430 --> 00:15:12,390 I find now there are more delays than stop and starts and, and I see 258 00:15:12,390 --> 00:15:13,770 that a little bit as a difference. 259 00:15:13,770 --> 00:15:17,610 And so we get an engagement, let's just say we say it's six to eight months. 260 00:15:17,610 --> 00:15:19,680 We build a timeline that's eight, that's six. 261 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,699 We always build it for the shortest span and we're meeting every week. 262 00:15:23,970 --> 00:15:27,209 And when a deadline is missed and, and frankly, it's almost always 263 00:15:27,209 --> 00:15:30,959 on the client side because they got busy, it's shifted and every 264 00:15:30,959 --> 00:15:32,490 week we let them know it shifted. 265 00:15:32,490 --> 00:15:34,345 We're gonna keep going, but now our. 266 00:15:35,025 --> 00:15:36,195 The end game has shifted. 267 00:15:36,945 --> 00:15:41,205 Um, rarely do we see where things completely get put on hold. 268 00:15:41,985 --> 00:15:45,615 Um, we do have some things that we have included to cushion 269 00:15:45,615 --> 00:15:47,355 us around in our agreements. 270 00:15:48,105 --> 00:15:50,625 It doesn't always make it into our final agreement. 271 00:15:50,625 --> 00:15:53,625 I don't know if you've had that experience, but it it, it is an 272 00:15:53,625 --> 00:15:55,580 opportunity for our conversation. 273 00:15:57,209 --> 00:15:59,939 But you know it, here's exactly what you said. 274 00:15:59,939 --> 00:16:01,079 Here's why we do this. 275 00:16:01,079 --> 00:16:03,060 Because we're setting aside resources. 276 00:16:03,449 --> 00:16:07,890 We're making sure this project finishes and with within this timeline, and 277 00:16:07,890 --> 00:16:11,670 if it doesn't, there's additional resources if it gets put on pause. 278 00:16:12,045 --> 00:16:13,425 Everything shifts, right? 279 00:16:13,425 --> 00:16:18,285 So, um, and we don't, we, I have a team even smaller than yours. 280 00:16:18,285 --> 00:16:20,745 We don't always, none of us have that luxury. 281 00:16:20,775 --> 00:16:23,595 So yeah, it's a very reasonable thing. 282 00:16:23,625 --> 00:16:27,645 Like in, in other industries, you know, I think that's another interesting 283 00:16:27,645 --> 00:16:36,015 dynamic in working with law firms is, you know, inside the practice they. 284 00:16:36,555 --> 00:16:37,665 Say jump. 285 00:16:37,755 --> 00:16:41,505 And sometimes a lot of the support functions have to ask how high, right? 286 00:16:42,105 --> 00:16:42,195 Mm-hmm. 287 00:16:42,495 --> 00:16:47,895 Especially when we talk about squeaky wheels, you know, uh, areas of the 288 00:16:47,895 --> 00:16:53,220 business within the practice who have a. Um, who have a lot of influence 289 00:16:53,310 --> 00:16:58,410 and sometimes that carries over to how, you know, they gotta put, do 290 00:16:58,410 --> 00:17:00,210 the same thing to, to their vendors. 291 00:17:00,210 --> 00:17:00,270 Yeah. 292 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:03,720 Just to, just to keep their jobs, you know? 293 00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:04,315 Yeah, exactly. 294 00:17:04,775 --> 00:17:06,300 And, uh, yeah, and I get it. 295 00:17:06,450 --> 00:17:07,080 I get it. 296 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:08,340 But it's not a reasonable thing. 297 00:17:08,340 --> 00:17:13,440 Like I, I worked in financial services and I worked in shipping, um, I worked in 298 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,890 tech at Microsoft, like never was that. 299 00:17:18,045 --> 00:17:25,245 Situation where as a client, I had the ability to just freeze a project 300 00:17:25,305 --> 00:17:29,955 and my vendor has to deal with the implications of that without some 301 00:17:29,955 --> 00:17:32,445 sort of financial consideration. 302 00:17:32,985 --> 00:17:39,375 Um, but it, I I, we've run into it in le it's been a struggle, candidly. 303 00:17:40,065 --> 00:17:40,425 Yeah. 304 00:17:40,665 --> 00:17:40,995 Yeah. 305 00:17:41,775 --> 00:17:42,555 It can be. 306 00:17:42,645 --> 00:17:45,885 And, and usually you get a sense pretty quickly. 307 00:17:47,085 --> 00:17:48,375 Where it's coming from. 308 00:17:49,245 --> 00:17:50,085 Um, you might not know. 309 00:17:50,205 --> 00:17:55,515 You know, it's always, typically, very often it's coming from more senior 310 00:17:55,515 --> 00:17:58,305 management, sometimes the individuals you're not even dealing with, right? 311 00:17:58,905 --> 00:18:02,565 So sometimes you can get a sense of that just by how meetings are 312 00:18:02,565 --> 00:18:03,975 run and things that get said. 313 00:18:04,065 --> 00:18:08,835 Um, and you have these conversations. 314 00:18:08,865 --> 00:18:10,965 Um, but it, it, it is tricky. 315 00:18:10,965 --> 00:18:13,455 And one of the things sort of going back to. 316 00:18:14,055 --> 00:18:15,225 Who to involve. 317 00:18:15,255 --> 00:18:19,635 One of the conversations we have early is who are the key decision? 318 00:18:19,695 --> 00:18:21,705 Who needs to be involved from the outset? 319 00:18:22,365 --> 00:18:23,625 Who needs to buy in? 320 00:18:24,345 --> 00:18:26,685 Who needs to approve it, and where? 321 00:18:26,775 --> 00:18:28,845 Where are potential blockers gonna happen? 322 00:18:29,415 --> 00:18:31,575 Because just as you said, nothing worse. 323 00:18:31,845 --> 00:18:36,615 First of all, anything that gets presented to a senior person who has 324 00:18:36,615 --> 00:18:39,675 to approve it or someone who didn't even know this thing was coming, which 325 00:18:39,675 --> 00:18:41,355 is the worst thing ever you can do. 326 00:18:42,794 --> 00:18:45,375 Because that is just, that's never gonna fly. 327 00:18:45,405 --> 00:18:49,335 So that person at least needs to, whoever it is, they need to have buy-in, 328 00:18:49,665 --> 00:18:53,534 they need to approve it, they need to have some level of involvement early. 329 00:18:53,534 --> 00:18:53,595 Um. 330 00:18:55,379 --> 00:18:58,679 To share something at the last minute for approval is only ever going 331 00:18:58,679 --> 00:19:01,229 to end badly from my experience. 332 00:19:01,409 --> 00:19:01,949 Yes. 333 00:19:01,949 --> 00:19:04,739 So, well, strong project management, you're describing 334 00:19:04,739 --> 00:19:06,149 strong project management. 335 00:19:06,810 --> 00:19:07,080 Yeah. 336 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,340 And when you're in the project business, that's a, that is a 337 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:14,875 key influencer in your success. 338 00:19:16,044 --> 00:19:16,864 Um, yes. 339 00:19:17,159 --> 00:19:19,649 Well, you and I talked a little bit the last time about. 340 00:19:20,610 --> 00:19:26,700 How, how intranets have, have changed from, you know, I mean, intranets have 341 00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:34,470 been around since the nineties and you know, they started very static places 342 00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:36,750 where you would go get basic information. 343 00:19:36,750 --> 00:19:40,650 Like what the, what's on the lunch menu? 344 00:19:41,534 --> 00:19:45,915 To, you know, where's the PTO policy, uh, directions to the off, 345 00:19:45,945 --> 00:19:47,774 you know, just really basic stuff. 346 00:19:47,774 --> 00:19:52,605 And a lot of people still think of them that way, which it is a 347 00:19:52,784 --> 00:19:55,274 completely different world today. 348 00:19:55,274 --> 00:20:00,165 Like, I mean, we, we have integrations with just about every legal back 349 00:20:00,165 --> 00:20:01,784 office system that there is. 350 00:20:01,965 --> 00:20:02,055 Mm-hmm. 351 00:20:02,294 --> 00:20:04,754 And we, we are like a single pane of glass. 352 00:20:04,815 --> 00:20:08,534 So you can drag and drop data from. 353 00:20:08,909 --> 00:20:13,199 Different data sources very easily and build experiences that 354 00:20:13,199 --> 00:20:14,790 create a single pane of glass. 355 00:20:15,389 --> 00:20:21,750 Um, and I know in your travels you've seen this, this evolution as well, 356 00:20:21,750 --> 00:20:27,330 but like, I'm curious what, you know, when you talk about intranets, are 357 00:20:27,330 --> 00:20:30,090 you, are you having conversations. 358 00:20:30,975 --> 00:20:34,665 At the more advanced end of the spectrum, or are people coming to 359 00:20:34,665 --> 00:20:40,935 the table with those expectations from the nineties, um, and are really 360 00:20:40,935 --> 00:20:48,135 just trying to upgrade a pretty static, um, non-dynamic environment? 361 00:20:49,995 --> 00:20:51,945 Yeah, I, I think it varies. 362 00:20:52,125 --> 00:20:57,075 Um, sometimes the, the request for sort of that lift and shift, we want what 363 00:20:57,075 --> 00:20:58,399 we have now, but we just want it to. 364 00:20:59,490 --> 00:21:03,750 The navigation to be better and to look better sometimes comes from not 365 00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:07,649 being aware of all the possibilities that they have at their fingertips. 366 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,909 So there's some education involved and some asking questions. 367 00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:13,860 So like what? 368 00:21:13,950 --> 00:21:14,430 Um. 369 00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:19,320 Based on who you are and where you are and what you do every day, what 370 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,050 are the kind of things that would be really useful to surface from some 371 00:21:22,050 --> 00:21:26,040 of those other systems even or from some other places within the internet? 372 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,580 So that I'm not, I think you caught the toggle tax. 373 00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:30,655 I don't know if that was you. 374 00:21:30,655 --> 00:21:30,895 Mm-hmm. 375 00:21:30,975 --> 00:21:32,460 Who invented that or someone else. 376 00:21:32,460 --> 00:21:36,180 But I'm not shifting gears five times to get something done. 377 00:21:36,180 --> 00:21:40,980 I have all those things at my fingertips based on those roles and locations. 378 00:21:40,980 --> 00:21:44,430 So some of it is, is that, um. 379 00:21:45,165 --> 00:21:49,304 And asking a lot of the questions, making sure they understand the technology, 380 00:21:49,605 --> 00:21:52,844 asking the right questions, and then try to make those suggestions for 381 00:21:52,844 --> 00:21:55,215 how to make it something more robust. 382 00:21:55,980 --> 00:22:00,300 You know, um, also, just, just for full clarification, the lunch menu is 383 00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:03,330 still very, very popular at law firms. 384 00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:03,690 Yeah. 385 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,090 Well, and, uh, I don't know. 386 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,800 You know, to be honest with you, I can't remember if we invented the term, but we 387 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,020 di certainly didn't invent the concept. 388 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:18,000 We got it from, there was a Harvard Business Review article from shortly 389 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,230 after COVID, and they did a study of. 390 00:22:22,830 --> 00:22:24,780 It was a really big sample size. 391 00:22:24,780 --> 00:22:28,200 I don't remember how many tens of thousands of information workers, but 392 00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:35,129 they looked at, um, information workers in different industries and measured how much 393 00:22:35,129 --> 00:22:40,080 time they spent reorienting themselves switching from application to application. 394 00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:45,149 First of all, the number of times that they, that a average information 395 00:22:45,149 --> 00:22:47,580 worker switches is something like 1200. 396 00:22:48,675 --> 00:22:49,604 Times a day. 397 00:22:50,084 --> 00:22:54,375 So, and I forget the details that it's been a while since I've read that 398 00:22:54,375 --> 00:22:58,215 study, but, um, I mean, think about every time you switch from outlook to 399 00:22:58,215 --> 00:23:02,865 your browser to OneNote to claw to. 400 00:23:03,645 --> 00:23:07,305 Word to excel, you know, 1200 times a day. 401 00:23:07,905 --> 00:23:14,025 And they measured the impact to productivity and it was a route 402 00:23:14,055 --> 00:23:19,005 about 9% of an information worker's day is spent reorienting themselves. 403 00:23:19,635 --> 00:23:24,465 So for if you work a 40 hour week, that's almost four hours a week. 404 00:23:24,885 --> 00:23:28,515 We all know that lawyers work way more than 40 hours a week. 405 00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:32,190 So whatever that number is, it really adds up. 406 00:23:32,399 --> 00:23:37,470 So that's kind of one of our pitches when law firms, you know, 407 00:23:37,470 --> 00:23:41,610 are trying to articulate ROI, Hey, what's the ROI on this? 408 00:23:41,610 --> 00:23:42,810 It's the toggling tax. 409 00:23:42,810 --> 00:23:46,080 And it doesn't eliminate it, but it drastically reduces it 410 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,889 because, you know, like on a client page, we will have information 411 00:23:49,889 --> 00:23:51,450 from 10 different data sources. 412 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:52,230 It's. 413 00:23:52,725 --> 00:23:56,745 The practice management solution that's gonna have open matters. 414 00:23:56,745 --> 00:24:00,465 It's gonna have engagement letters from the DMS, it's gonna have a list 415 00:24:00,495 --> 00:24:03,705 of the client contacts from CRM. 416 00:24:04,034 --> 00:24:09,705 It will have a list of, um, attorneys who are billing time to those matters. 417 00:24:09,915 --> 00:24:11,955 That's coming from the timekeeping system. 418 00:24:12,135 --> 00:24:12,225 Mm-hmm. 419 00:24:12,465 --> 00:24:14,564 It may have analytics from. 420 00:24:14,865 --> 00:24:18,945 Big hand or power BI all in one place. 421 00:24:19,305 --> 00:24:23,925 So as a lawyer, if I want to get a holistic view or a BD professional 422 00:24:24,285 --> 00:24:29,024 and I want to get a holistic view of my client, that's what we provide. 423 00:24:29,055 --> 00:24:32,774 And um, it is a sub substantial savings. 424 00:24:32,774 --> 00:24:34,460 So, you know, we try. 425 00:24:35,205 --> 00:24:36,870 Educate the market on what mm-hmm. 426 00:24:37,365 --> 00:24:42,195 The bigger firms seem to have a better sense of these possibilities. 427 00:24:42,315 --> 00:24:44,895 Um, I Is that your take as well? 428 00:24:46,755 --> 00:24:47,925 Yeah, I think so. 429 00:24:48,045 --> 00:24:52,215 Um, you know, with the internet work, we're usually, we're 430 00:24:52,215 --> 00:24:55,515 usually working in, in the bigger, in the larger law firm space. 431 00:24:55,575 --> 00:24:55,995 Um. 432 00:24:56,715 --> 00:25:00,195 One, they have, I think the need they have, the more of the resources 433 00:25:00,195 --> 00:25:01,335 to pull these things together. 434 00:25:01,935 --> 00:25:06,495 Um, but I think it's the ROI on the toggle tax. 435 00:25:06,525 --> 00:25:09,075 The toggle tax and how many hours you're losing. 436 00:25:09,075 --> 00:25:13,125 And then if you just think about the mental capacity it takes, at least 437 00:25:13,125 --> 00:25:16,875 for me, I know it takes a lot of my mental capacity to switch gears. 438 00:25:16,995 --> 00:25:17,205 Yeah. 439 00:25:17,235 --> 00:25:21,195 All the times that you do in a day, there's just something 440 00:25:21,195 --> 00:25:22,725 more rewarding about having. 441 00:25:23,595 --> 00:25:24,015 Done. 442 00:25:24,045 --> 00:25:27,525 Good, solid work, accomplish something, and not being completely fried at the 443 00:25:27,525 --> 00:25:32,025 end of the day because you were literally just going from one thing to another in 444 00:25:32,025 --> 00:25:36,225 a million different, you know, browsers and applications and tabs and can't find 445 00:25:36,225 --> 00:25:37,635 things and don't know where things are. 446 00:25:37,635 --> 00:25:39,075 Oh, it's not here, it's over there. 447 00:25:39,795 --> 00:25:44,085 Um, and you know, these, when we work on these projects, there. 448 00:25:45,180 --> 00:25:50,670 There are decisions we make early and we hope they're all good decisions, right? 449 00:25:50,670 --> 00:25:53,130 We're working with the clients to make them, and we're leveraging the 450 00:25:53,130 --> 00:25:59,460 technology, but they have a platform that then enables them to continue. 451 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,510 If, if some of those, if 10% or 15% of those were not. 452 00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:08,760 After someone, after their users use it for a few months or six 453 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,590 months or a year, there's, there's ways to grow, there's ways to 454 00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:15,360 continue to improve upon it, right? 455 00:26:15,389 --> 00:26:19,680 So I, I also think it's not a one and done thing, right? 456 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,710 It's a living, breathing space and it has to be treated that way. 457 00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:27,180 'cause work workflows change, people change, um, the 458 00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:28,680 tools they're using change. 459 00:26:28,770 --> 00:26:30,930 So, and I think that's part of the problem that. 460 00:26:31,620 --> 00:26:36,930 I know we're seeing, it's not just the outdated technology, but things shifted 461 00:26:36,930 --> 00:26:41,310 in every, and it, it is just become a, uh, data dump for everybody to also 462 00:26:41,310 --> 00:26:42,750 kind of do whatever they wanna do. 463 00:26:42,750 --> 00:26:46,980 And so now instead of a handful of people being frustrated, everybody's frustrated 464 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:48,450 because they can't find anything. 465 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,720 You know, some of it, a lot of it is a technology, but there's a lot 466 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,280 of just sometimes poor decisions or, or not really thinking about 467 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,690 the problem they're trying to solve. 468 00:26:57,690 --> 00:26:59,310 And sometimes, like not having the. 469 00:27:00,014 --> 00:27:01,725 Necessarily the experience, right. 470 00:27:01,725 --> 00:27:02,745 To make those decisions. 471 00:27:02,745 --> 00:27:04,274 So I get that. 472 00:27:04,395 --> 00:27:09,735 Um, but of revisiting things from a place of knowledge and making 473 00:27:09,735 --> 00:27:11,235 very intentional decisions. 474 00:27:11,475 --> 00:27:11,835 Yeah. 475 00:27:12,165 --> 00:27:17,620 And you know, things have really expanded with the use of AI for us and. 476 00:27:18,854 --> 00:27:22,485 We both worked together on Finnegan's project and they, we 477 00:27:22,485 --> 00:27:23,715 published a case study about it. 478 00:27:23,715 --> 00:27:25,064 So this is in the public domain. 479 00:27:25,064 --> 00:27:25,155 Mm-hmm. 480 00:27:25,514 --> 00:27:27,614 But they did something really interesting. 481 00:27:27,764 --> 00:27:35,175 Um, so they were an early adopter of Azure OpenAI, and so we. 482 00:27:35,879 --> 00:27:40,860 As part of their intranet project, built a bot that crawled and 483 00:27:40,860 --> 00:27:43,409 indexed all of their policy content. 484 00:27:43,889 --> 00:27:49,290 So this could, this was like, you know, PTO policy, expense reimbursement 485 00:27:49,290 --> 00:27:54,240 policy, sexual harassment policy, like every policy in the firm. 486 00:27:54,840 --> 00:28:00,870 And that information existed like in PDFs, it, some of it was in Wiki pages, 487 00:28:00,899 --> 00:28:03,240 some was in Word documents in the dms. 488 00:28:03,419 --> 00:28:03,510 Mm-hmm. 489 00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:05,340 Others were like. 490 00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:07,590 On their public facing webpage. 491 00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:08,940 Like it was just all over. 492 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,780 So we built a solution that crawled and indexed all that 493 00:28:12,780 --> 00:28:14,700 content using Azure AI search. 494 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,850 And then we built a policy bot that we exposed through their intranet 495 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,510 where they could go ask a question like, Hey, what's my PTO balance? 496 00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:28,800 Or what's the ethical limit on, um, receiving gifts from vendors or whatever. 497 00:28:29,250 --> 00:28:29,340 Mm-hmm. 498 00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:31,560 And, and that was a huge hit. 499 00:28:31,950 --> 00:28:32,880 Um, but. 500 00:28:33,690 --> 00:28:42,630 You know, it's like we, we have over 50 am law clients, and I, I can count the 501 00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:47,910 number on one hand that have kind of gone to that level of sophistication. 502 00:28:47,910 --> 00:28:52,080 Finnegan's a decent sized firm, but you know, they're, they're in the AM law 503 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,210 for sure, but it's not like we have some firms that are bigger in the AM law, 10 504 00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:00,360 or 20, and we haven't gotten there yet. 505 00:29:00,390 --> 00:29:01,830 It's like, so I don't know. 506 00:29:01,830 --> 00:29:02,640 Are you seeing. 507 00:29:03,465 --> 00:29:08,114 Are you seeing firms move up the sophistication spectrum with 508 00:29:08,114 --> 00:29:09,764 their digital workplace solutions? 509 00:29:09,764 --> 00:29:11,625 Or is it still a lot of status quo? 510 00:29:13,395 --> 00:29:17,459 You know, I see firms really wanting to push the envelope more, and it, 511 00:29:17,465 --> 00:29:21,225 it usually starts out that way, but very often as, as things move 512 00:29:21,225 --> 00:29:22,604 forward, it kind of scales back. 513 00:29:22,814 --> 00:29:26,175 So there's still sort of that more conservative or maybe the unknown. 514 00:29:26,834 --> 00:29:31,364 I do think we'll see more with things like what, uh, what Finnegan did. 515 00:29:31,364 --> 00:29:32,235 I think we'll see. 516 00:29:32,295 --> 00:29:34,905 It is just, it's just a better experience. 517 00:29:34,905 --> 00:29:35,205 Right. 518 00:29:35,325 --> 00:29:39,615 Um, and policy policy's just one example. 519 00:29:39,855 --> 00:29:42,735 These are just, as you said, buried in all types of documents 520 00:29:42,735 --> 00:29:43,665 and all kinds of formats. 521 00:29:43,665 --> 00:29:44,775 No one can find anything. 522 00:29:45,615 --> 00:29:49,725 Um, so I think they're, they're gonna be a little slow on that 523 00:29:49,725 --> 00:29:52,125 side, but I think they'll catch up. 524 00:29:52,815 --> 00:29:53,685 Um, I hope. 525 00:29:53,925 --> 00:29:54,345 Yeah. 526 00:29:54,765 --> 00:29:59,655 Well we are, we're doing, um, we're, where, where I'm seeing more traction 527 00:29:59,655 --> 00:30:01,545 with this is on the extranet side. 528 00:30:02,115 --> 00:30:06,885 So we have two cli, like we just launched our Extranet platform in May. 529 00:30:07,245 --> 00:30:13,215 We've been so busy, like we just, we got lucky in a lot of ways with our 530 00:30:13,215 --> 00:30:18,765 timing around intranet because all these big firms were moving to the cloud. 531 00:30:19,125 --> 00:30:23,205 Like the typical sequence for a big firm moving to the cloud is they'll 532 00:30:23,205 --> 00:30:25,575 typically move like messaging, like email. 533 00:30:26,085 --> 00:30:26,175 Mm-hmm. 534 00:30:26,415 --> 00:30:26,535 Right. 535 00:30:26,535 --> 00:30:28,545 That goes first Then. 536 00:30:28,905 --> 00:30:34,815 Maybe the DMS or, and then like the ancillary M 365 workloads like 537 00:30:34,815 --> 00:30:40,605 SharePoint, those kind of happen ne next so that we, there was a big wave 538 00:30:40,605 --> 00:30:47,355 in like 20 22, 20 23 when we were, and we don't have any competition. 539 00:30:47,385 --> 00:30:48,945 It's either us or custom dev. 540 00:30:49,635 --> 00:30:54,495 There's handshake that really is not doing anything in the marketplace, and 541 00:30:54,495 --> 00:30:57,435 so it's really just us or custom dev. 542 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:04,620 Um, but on the extranet side, so it took us a while to, to get extranet out 543 00:31:04,620 --> 00:31:06,210 the door 'cause we were so damn busy. 544 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:13,140 But, um, so we have two firms, um, that are doing AI scenarios, that are 545 00:31:13,140 --> 00:31:14,640 client facing that are really cool. 546 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,860 One of 'em is a labor and employment firm who they have this curated data 547 00:31:19,860 --> 00:31:21,930 set with all the labor and employment. 548 00:31:22,545 --> 00:31:26,775 Regulations and their customers log into a portal that they pay 549 00:31:26,775 --> 00:31:33,135 for and they peruse all of the, um, regulatory updates for each state. 550 00:31:34,005 --> 00:31:34,905 Like, that's great. 551 00:31:35,355 --> 00:31:35,715 Cool. 552 00:31:35,715 --> 00:31:37,815 We said, Hey, what if we crawl and index that? 553 00:31:37,815 --> 00:31:41,085 And then you've got all their employment documents and your DMS, 554 00:31:41,115 --> 00:31:43,995 their employment agreements that are employee handbooks, and we run 555 00:31:43,995 --> 00:31:47,205 an Azure OpenAI exception process. 556 00:31:47,595 --> 00:31:50,835 And then when we get an exception, we create a work item in Power Automate. 557 00:31:50,835 --> 00:31:55,605 We route it to the attorney responsible for the relationship, they validate 'em, 558 00:31:55,605 --> 00:31:59,025 and then that gets pushed to the client's portal and they can have a dashboard. 559 00:31:59,715 --> 00:32:00,705 That's pretty cool. 560 00:32:01,125 --> 00:32:02,115 Um, very cool. 561 00:32:02,235 --> 00:32:02,835 Yeah. 562 00:32:02,835 --> 00:32:06,195 And then we have another firm who's doing a, they have something 563 00:32:06,195 --> 00:32:07,515 called a virtual library. 564 00:32:08,295 --> 00:32:12,075 So they, it's a Canadian firm and they've, like, again, this is, 565 00:32:12,435 --> 00:32:16,875 if, if a firm has like a really high, highly curated data set. 566 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,360 It's a perfect candidate to throw AI at, right? 567 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:21,885 Like people think. 568 00:32:21,885 --> 00:32:22,525 Yeah, absolutely. 569 00:32:22,755 --> 00:32:26,610 Like throw AI at your DMS mm, bad idea. 570 00:32:26,615 --> 00:32:28,470 You're gonna get, you're gonna get a lot of junk back. 571 00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:32,160 It's so, the signal to noise ratio is so low. 572 00:32:32,850 --> 00:32:39,210 Um, but yeah, so we're, we're excited to see firms like take that next step 573 00:32:39,210 --> 00:32:41,805 and do some client facing AI stuff. 574 00:32:43,245 --> 00:32:43,875 I am too. 575 00:32:43,875 --> 00:32:47,685 I'm very excited, um, to see where everything goes with the 576 00:32:47,685 --> 00:32:49,065 extra nets you're, you're doing. 577 00:32:49,125 --> 00:32:54,885 I mean, it's such a great selling point and I can't imagine any big company 578 00:32:54,885 --> 00:33:02,050 not, not sort of valuing, uh, one law firm relationship over another if 579 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,145 they have access to that information. 580 00:33:05,564 --> 00:33:06,195 Totally. 581 00:33:06,254 --> 00:33:06,675 Yeah. 582 00:33:06,675 --> 00:33:09,105 And we're, we don't have a lot of competition in that space either. 583 00:33:09,495 --> 00:33:12,345 Uh, there's some, there's somebody out there, I won't say their name. 584 00:33:12,405 --> 00:33:16,274 Everybody knows who they are, but not much is changing over there. 585 00:33:16,845 --> 00:33:17,955 Uh, okay. 586 00:33:17,955 --> 00:33:21,345 What, uh, I wanna, one other topic I wanted to talk to you about was like 587 00:33:21,345 --> 00:33:23,205 build versus buy, because mm-hmm. 588 00:33:24,014 --> 00:33:30,314 We've both seen some challenges around when like law firms try and 589 00:33:30,314 --> 00:33:33,105 go down the custom dev path, in fact. 590 00:33:33,735 --> 00:33:36,405 Again, without saying names, there's one firm in, in particular that 591 00:33:36,405 --> 00:33:40,784 you did a bunch of work for, like the, they were all ready to go 592 00:33:40,784 --> 00:33:42,885 and then firm changed their mind. 593 00:33:42,885 --> 00:33:47,445 It's like there's so much like support, like care and feeding that has to 594 00:33:47,445 --> 00:33:54,105 go into that system that, you know, even if you hire a vendor, outside 595 00:33:54,105 --> 00:33:58,485 vendor to help you build it, are, are you gonna have your IT resources? 596 00:33:58,485 --> 00:34:02,115 Like, is that the highest and best use of their time to sit around and. 597 00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:04,410 Manage some custom dev. 598 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,390 Uh, what has your experience been? 599 00:34:06,510 --> 00:34:06,840 Yeah. 600 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,429 In the custom dev world, I mean, we do see it happen either, either firms 601 00:34:11,429 --> 00:34:16,470 working with, uh, other external vendors or they have the resources internally. 602 00:34:16,530 --> 00:34:22,350 But, you know, you, you have to have the dedicated headcount who are not just the 603 00:34:22,350 --> 00:34:27,000 creation, which can take, you know, as you know, I mean many months, the maintenance 604 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,700 support, managing the ongoing updates. 605 00:34:30,179 --> 00:34:31,200 Uh, and you need. 606 00:34:31,590 --> 00:34:32,699 More than one person. 607 00:34:32,850 --> 00:34:36,420 And these, these individuals have to be, be solely responsible. 608 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:42,810 They can't be juggling other, other high priority issues when something is 609 00:34:42,989 --> 00:34:45,929 broken or when they're trying to create an internet and there's a timeline. 610 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,969 So I think there's a realistic assessment of long term, long term 611 00:34:50,969 --> 00:34:56,040 support capabilities and looking at the cost benefit analysis, 612 00:34:56,429 --> 00:34:57,645 um, you're, you're paying. 613 00:34:58,500 --> 00:34:58,950 Salary. 614 00:34:58,980 --> 00:35:00,420 I mean, you own a business. 615 00:35:00,420 --> 00:35:01,200 I own a business. 616 00:35:01,290 --> 00:35:06,240 We all know what salaries are and what the cost, the, the benefits and the 617 00:35:06,330 --> 00:35:11,700 whatever you tack on, on top of that and look at, okay, I, I can do that. 618 00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:15,960 Or I can work with a, you know, another vendor who has a product 619 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,680 that's, they've done this a million times, this is what they do, this 620 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,600 is all they do and for support. 621 00:35:21,660 --> 00:35:22,800 So I think it's, um. 622 00:35:24,075 --> 00:35:28,515 It's, uh, a very tough call, I think, um, to bring, or a very tough 623 00:35:28,515 --> 00:35:32,025 decision to say, we're gonna do this all internally and support it. 624 00:35:32,565 --> 00:35:36,675 'cause the other thing is, um, there's a lot of bespoke 625 00:35:36,675 --> 00:35:38,445 requirements firms have, right? 626 00:35:38,505 --> 00:35:43,785 And so having a, a small team internally who's trying to manage 627 00:35:43,785 --> 00:35:48,525 all that and who has the skill sets is, uh, can get very complicated. 628 00:35:49,065 --> 00:35:49,455 Yeah. 629 00:35:50,115 --> 00:35:50,690 Um, I think. 630 00:35:52,410 --> 00:35:54,420 Uh, who was I talking to? 631 00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:55,770 It was Kyle Poe. 632 00:35:55,770 --> 00:35:56,220 Who? 633 00:35:56,580 --> 00:35:57,150 From Lara. 634 00:35:57,150 --> 00:35:57,270 Mm-hmm. 635 00:35:57,930 --> 00:36:04,200 And we were talking about he, he did a custom extranet solution for Morgan 636 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,029 Lewis when he was on the law firm side. 637 00:36:06,330 --> 00:36:08,160 And we were joking about how. 638 00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:10,740 Devs love to dev, right? 639 00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:13,890 If you've got some devs on staff, like they'd love to dev, but you know 640 00:36:13,890 --> 00:36:18,540 what they don't love to do is support and maintenance and like they wanna 641 00:36:18,540 --> 00:36:20,580 build the cool thing and then move on. 642 00:36:20,580 --> 00:36:20,640 Yeah. 643 00:36:20,910 --> 00:36:23,340 That's something that gets lost a lot of times. 644 00:36:23,340 --> 00:36:27,300 Like there's a ton of enthusiasm from the internal tech team. 645 00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:29,700 Like, let's build this, like we can totally build this. 646 00:36:29,705 --> 00:36:29,715 Mm-hmm. 647 00:36:30,090 --> 00:36:32,190 Like, okay, are you also gonna support it? 648 00:36:32,490 --> 00:36:32,740 Are you gonna. 649 00:36:33,055 --> 00:36:35,154 Are you gonna maintain all the integrations? 650 00:36:35,365 --> 00:36:37,194 Are you gonna handle all the enhancements? 651 00:36:37,194 --> 00:36:38,964 Are you gonna build out the training materials? 652 00:36:39,234 --> 00:36:41,515 Like are you gonna QA this thing? 653 00:36:41,515 --> 00:36:43,884 All that other stuff that comes with it. 654 00:36:43,884 --> 00:36:47,904 There's a lot of other stuff that don't, you just mentioned like training and all. 655 00:36:47,904 --> 00:36:51,504 There's so many things that are not considered outside of the dev. 656 00:36:51,835 --> 00:36:52,375 Totally. 657 00:36:52,705 --> 00:36:53,125 Yeah. 658 00:36:53,185 --> 00:36:55,674 Um, and employee turnover's huge too. 659 00:36:56,365 --> 00:36:56,815 Um. 660 00:36:57,165 --> 00:36:59,955 What happens just with, not with just the knowledge that goes out 661 00:36:59,955 --> 00:37:04,754 the door, but if you don't replace people in, in a timely fashion, how 662 00:37:04,754 --> 00:37:06,075 those things are still getting done. 663 00:37:06,194 --> 00:37:09,524 'cause it, it doesn't, it's not gonna stop just because you don't have the resources. 664 00:37:09,854 --> 00:37:10,725 Exactly. 665 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:12,630 Yeah, it's amazing. 666 00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:18,810 So for 14 years we were like the custom dev shop in legal, like, and we ran 667 00:37:18,810 --> 00:37:25,050 into so many issues handing off what we built to the internal tech teams. 668 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:25,290 Mm-hmm. 669 00:37:25,529 --> 00:37:28,230 Even when we, you know, and after, after this happened, a couple of 670 00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:30,390 times we started to get proactive. 671 00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:35,185 Like before we would even sign a client up on a dev project, we would say, look. 672 00:37:36,060 --> 00:37:39,000 Loop your IT team in here because they're gonna have to support 673 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,319 whatever it is we're building. 674 00:37:40,319 --> 00:37:41,640 So they should be at the table. 675 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:46,799 And what we, what would happen a lot of times is we would get half-assed 676 00:37:46,830 --> 00:37:51,810 engagement from it, you know, not paying attention or just sending some 677 00:37:51,810 --> 00:37:53,430 low level person to the meetings. 678 00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:54,569 'cause they got other priorities. 679 00:37:54,569 --> 00:37:55,169 I get it. 680 00:37:55,859 --> 00:37:57,990 But then, but then during kickoff. 681 00:37:58,845 --> 00:37:59,685 Handoff. 682 00:37:59,865 --> 00:38:01,395 They're like, whoa, wait a second. 683 00:38:01,395 --> 00:38:02,955 You guys used React js? 684 00:38:02,955 --> 00:38:04,995 We don't have anybody on staff that knows that. 685 00:38:04,995 --> 00:38:05,115 Mm-hmm. 686 00:38:05,355 --> 00:38:06,705 You're using the office graph. 687 00:38:06,705 --> 00:38:07,995 We don't even know what that is. 688 00:38:07,995 --> 00:38:11,774 Like Azure, like we're still on prem. 689 00:38:12,105 --> 00:38:12,734 You know what I mean? 690 00:38:12,734 --> 00:38:13,634 And it's like, yep. 691 00:38:13,875 --> 00:38:18,734 Uh, no matter what we did, we would end up, and I, and I get it, man, like. 692 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,140 I'm not throwing shade at the IT teams. 693 00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:22,740 I get it. 694 00:38:22,740 --> 00:38:25,350 You're busy, you're pulled in a million different directions. 695 00:38:25,470 --> 00:38:25,560 Mm-hmm. 696 00:38:25,799 --> 00:38:30,029 You're under-resourced, but that's why going down the custom dev 697 00:38:30,029 --> 00:38:32,790 path is probably not a good idea. 698 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,450 Um, but yeah, it, it can be very slippery slope. 699 00:38:37,049 --> 00:38:37,170 Yeah. 700 00:38:37,590 --> 00:38:42,270 Um, and usually, usually if we get in before a firm is 701 00:38:42,270 --> 00:38:45,210 really like pot committed, like gone too far down the path. 702 00:38:46,260 --> 00:38:51,120 Um, sometimes even after Ogletree Ogletree, we built their 703 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,670 custom intranet as acro wire. 704 00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:57,780 And then when we, they, they had not only launched it, they had, 705 00:38:57,930 --> 00:39:01,795 they won two awards, they won Ulta's Innovative Project of the Year and Wow. 706 00:39:02,460 --> 00:39:05,130 And the step two, um. 707 00:39:05,819 --> 00:39:06,450 Gold. 708 00:39:06,450 --> 00:39:08,040 That's like a, not a legal thing. 709 00:39:08,759 --> 00:39:12,569 So won two awards and they were like, we wanna move to info dash because the 710 00:39:12,569 --> 00:39:16,500 care and feeding of this custom thing y'all built for us is, it's too much. 711 00:39:17,370 --> 00:39:20,700 Um, so I, I would imagine you've seen all these pain points as well. 712 00:39:20,884 --> 00:39:21,625 We, we have. 713 00:39:21,990 --> 00:39:22,919 We have for sure. 714 00:39:22,919 --> 00:39:29,490 And, and like, one of the things, I think that's it, it, it, it sort of feeds our, 715 00:39:29,490 --> 00:39:32,040 our, our working relationship or is that. 716 00:39:33,495 --> 00:39:37,095 When we are designing and we're working with firms and we're trying to maintain 717 00:39:37,245 --> 00:39:42,315 like the out of the box info dash product as much as possible, there's always 718 00:39:42,315 --> 00:39:46,755 the thing that clients want or request that don't always fit into that, right? 719 00:39:47,205 --> 00:39:47,325 Mm-hmm. 720 00:39:48,495 --> 00:39:53,025 I think, I think my team is pretty good about this, but we set up checks 721 00:39:53,025 --> 00:39:58,035 with your team to make sure that here's what the client wants to do 722 00:39:58,035 --> 00:39:59,595 and needs to do for these reasons. 723 00:39:59,595 --> 00:40:03,585 So before we present it, we wanna make sure we're not blowing anything up. 724 00:40:03,735 --> 00:40:03,795 Yeah. 725 00:40:04,185 --> 00:40:07,215 Before we show it to the client and they fall in love with it. 726 00:40:07,215 --> 00:40:08,145 And then we have an issue. 727 00:40:08,145 --> 00:40:08,535 So. 728 00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:13,259 We are trying to set expectations with our work and how that relates 729 00:40:13,259 --> 00:40:16,350 to what they're doing on the info desk platform before we hand it 730 00:40:16,350 --> 00:40:20,130 over and, you know, things go south. 731 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,360 So we're, we're constantly having those checks as we're, we're working 'cause 732 00:40:24,810 --> 00:40:26,400 you know, 'cause those things do come up. 733 00:40:26,404 --> 00:40:27,420 So they do. 734 00:40:27,420 --> 00:40:31,500 And it's, I think as a law firm for, for the law firm listeners out 735 00:40:31,500 --> 00:40:35,400 there, I think it's important to find vendors who've worked together before. 736 00:40:36,345 --> 00:40:42,615 Um, you know, you can't always get that, but when it is available, put a premium on 737 00:40:42,615 --> 00:40:45,795 it because again, you guys understand us. 738 00:40:46,215 --> 00:40:50,955 We understand you, and there's a level of trust that, hey, I know Brandy's team. 739 00:40:50,985 --> 00:40:54,435 If somebody goes and asks for a dancing sausage on their home screen, 740 00:40:54,945 --> 00:40:58,125 that your team is gonna push back and go, are you sure you want a 741 00:40:58,125 --> 00:40:59,985 dancing sausage on your home screen? 742 00:41:00,045 --> 00:41:00,285 Yes. 743 00:41:00,675 --> 00:41:03,645 And you'll try and manage that. 744 00:41:04,050 --> 00:41:08,040 Ahead of reaching out to us and not promise them that you'll 745 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,890 be able to dancing sausage to deliver a dancing sausage. 746 00:41:14,345 --> 00:41:14,835 Exactly. 747 00:41:15,225 --> 00:41:15,515 Yeah. 748 00:41:16,260 --> 00:41:16,830 Exactly. 749 00:41:16,830 --> 00:41:21,435 And the team knows if, if I'm, you know, if I, I. If they're working on 750 00:41:21,435 --> 00:41:24,645 something and, and we really feel like we hit a roadblock and maybe I haven't 751 00:41:24,645 --> 00:41:28,455 been on, on, all the calls are involved, like they know when to pull me in or 752 00:41:28,455 --> 00:41:31,995 when to pull somebody from your team in to say, all right, we need a, we have 753 00:41:31,995 --> 00:41:33,885 to regroup, we need a sanity check. 754 00:41:33,915 --> 00:41:35,925 We have some concerns. 755 00:41:35,925 --> 00:41:38,805 So, um, we, we don't assume we know anything. 756 00:41:39,825 --> 00:41:45,765 Um, so we, we like to make sure we're, you know, leveraging our resources, which 757 00:41:46,305 --> 00:41:49,455 is the client and, and also your team when working through these projects. 758 00:41:49,799 --> 00:41:50,580 Exactly. 759 00:41:51,149 --> 00:41:51,450 Yeah. 760 00:41:51,569 --> 00:41:59,640 Um, what about, just kind of last topic, what I, I, I know we have been 761 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:07,439 part of two projects that have won Ilda's highest recognition and like 762 00:42:07,439 --> 00:42:10,980 the, the step two thing, we, we built the PLA and Fish and Richardson won it 763 00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:16,169 in like 2017, a product that we built for 'em back in our acro wire days. 764 00:42:16,169 --> 00:42:17,730 And, um. 765 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:27,810 We learned a lot from seeing the difference in approach when clients 766 00:42:27,810 --> 00:42:29,160 really hit it out of the park. 767 00:42:29,279 --> 00:42:34,319 And if you are winning like the top recognition by elta, you're probably, 768 00:42:34,319 --> 00:42:35,640 you've done some things right. 769 00:42:36,569 --> 00:42:39,210 I'm curious, what's your perspective on this? 770 00:42:39,210 --> 00:42:43,049 Like I would say probably a lot of the things that you talked about, 771 00:42:43,049 --> 00:42:44,700 like getting the right people. 772 00:42:45,270 --> 00:42:49,305 At the table table and getting buy-in across, but I don't know, like what, yeah. 773 00:42:49,305 --> 00:42:51,990 What has been your experience for the cust, the customers 774 00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:52,890 that really do it right? 775 00:42:52,890 --> 00:42:56,430 Like how are the, how, how, how is their approach different? 776 00:42:58,470 --> 00:43:00,180 They have done the research. 777 00:43:01,380 --> 00:43:05,670 Or, or, um, involve somebody to help them do the research, to ask 778 00:43:05,670 --> 00:43:08,279 the questions, to document it. 779 00:43:08,340 --> 00:43:11,610 So there's, every decision is supported with strategy. 780 00:43:11,759 --> 00:43:17,850 Like, we made this decision because of x. Um, it's not all based in aesthetics or 781 00:43:17,850 --> 00:43:20,340 visual or design or subjectivity, right? 782 00:43:20,340 --> 00:43:21,930 It supports the firm's brand. 783 00:43:22,575 --> 00:43:24,194 It supports a firm's culture. 784 00:43:24,795 --> 00:43:28,455 Um, when the squeaky wheel comes in and says, I don't like that. 785 00:43:28,455 --> 00:43:29,565 Why did you do that? 786 00:43:29,865 --> 00:43:32,895 We can say, well, this isn't subjective decision here. 787 00:43:32,895 --> 00:43:38,595 This is why, this is why this was done, because your users set X. Right? 788 00:43:38,595 --> 00:43:41,415 So most of them have done that research. 789 00:43:41,865 --> 00:43:45,615 Um, I would say all of them have done that, that initial discovery work. 790 00:43:46,005 --> 00:43:51,134 That supports the decisions and they have brought along the, the right 791 00:43:51,134 --> 00:43:53,205 people along for the ride early on. 792 00:43:53,205 --> 00:43:58,125 So, uh, who, who were, uh, who's feeding some of that discovery work? 793 00:43:58,125 --> 00:43:59,775 Who are we asking the questions of? 794 00:44:00,585 --> 00:44:02,235 Who needs to review it? 795 00:44:02,295 --> 00:44:03,674 Who needs to sign off on it? 796 00:44:03,674 --> 00:44:06,765 And then who are the people we have to keep in the loop so they know this 797 00:44:06,765 --> 00:44:09,555 thing is happening and they're not gonna be surprised by it at the end. 798 00:44:10,245 --> 00:44:12,404 So that sort of level and, and I would say. 799 00:44:13,185 --> 00:44:16,935 So all of that, if I had to, in a nutshell, I would say not doing it in 800 00:44:16,935 --> 00:44:20,775 a vacuum because that's the worst thing and you don't end up with a good product. 801 00:44:21,794 --> 00:44:23,654 What about the Dan dancing sausage? 802 00:44:23,654 --> 00:44:27,165 Do you recommend that or, uh, is that best practice? 803 00:44:28,004 --> 00:44:30,734 As much as I think we would all like to see a dancing sausage 804 00:44:30,734 --> 00:44:32,415 now, no, I do not recommend it. 805 00:44:34,125 --> 00:44:35,265 That's good stuff. 806 00:44:35,355 --> 00:44:39,194 Well, um, I appreciate you, uh, we're, we're out of time, but I, I 807 00:44:39,194 --> 00:44:43,095 appreciate you spending a few minutes with us and sharing your perspective. 808 00:44:43,634 --> 00:44:47,895 Um, I know we've had a, a really good working relationship and we 809 00:44:47,895 --> 00:44:49,754 recommend you guys all the time for. 810 00:44:51,210 --> 00:44:57,690 Design work, public facing sites, and when clients want, um, want design 811 00:44:57,810 --> 00:45:02,580 applied to the, you know, they don't want the out of the box experience. 812 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,010 Um, so keep up the good work. 813 00:45:05,070 --> 00:45:05,790 Appreciate you. 814 00:45:05,790 --> 00:45:06,715 Thank you, thank you. 815 00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:08,190 It's always great to work with you, Gus. 816 00:45:08,220 --> 00:45:09,420 Yeah, absolutely. 817 00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:12,450 And, and, uh, look forward to doing more, more work together. 818 00:45:13,050 --> 00:45:18,540 Um, fi on a final note, what, how do people find out more about what you do? 819 00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:22,020 Uh, knox design strategy.com. 820 00:45:22,140 --> 00:45:26,850 It lists, um, services, case studies, and I'm always available. 821 00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:28,410 Hop on a Zoom or a call. 822 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:29,460 Awesome. 823 00:45:30,060 --> 00:45:30,299 All. 824 00:45:30,299 --> 00:45:30,569 Excellent. 825 00:45:30,839 --> 00:45:33,870 Well, listen, have a good holiday and, uh, and we'll chat soon. 826 00:45:33,870 --> 00:45:33,964 You too. 827 00:45:34,134 --> 00:45:35,040 Thank you, Ted. 828 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:35,609 Have a good one. 829 00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:35,940 All right. 830 00:45:35,940 --> 00:45:36,390 Take care. 831 00:45:36,420 --> 00:45:36,964 Okay, bye-bye. 832 00:45:37,799 --> 00:45:40,049 Thanks for listening to Legal Innovation Spotlight. 833 00:45:40,620 --> 00:45:44,069 If you found value in this chat, hit the subscribe button to be notified 834 00:45:44,069 --> 00:45:45,569 when we release new episodes. 835 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,779 We'd also really appreciate it if you could take a moment to rate 836 00:45:48,779 --> 00:45:51,420 us and leave us a review wherever you're listening right now. 837 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,255 Your feedback helps us provide you with top-notch content. -->