1 00:00:02,722 --> 00:00:05,023 Haley Altman, how are you this morning? 2 00:00:06,285 --> 00:00:07,802 I'm doing great. 3 00:00:07,802 --> 00:00:13,610 I appreciate you joining me for a few minutes for what I think is going to be a very interesting conversation. 4 00:00:14,852 --> 00:00:30,144 Before we jump into the combo, actually how we got connected, I think we were on a panel and we were riffing on M &A and I think you and I kind of have the same perspective on 5 00:00:30,144 --> 00:00:32,546 where we are with things, but 6 00:00:32,546 --> 00:00:36,347 Before we jump into that, why don't we do an introduction? 7 00:00:36,347 --> 00:00:48,042 So you started, think, a, you were a practicing attorney with Ice Miller, and then you were founder CEO at Doxley, got acquired by Laterra, and you have a really interesting 8 00:00:48,042 --> 00:00:48,671 role now. 9 00:00:48,671 --> 00:00:53,682 So why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and where you do it? 10 00:00:53,682 --> 00:00:58,192 no, I was a &A attorney, also worked in Silicon Valley at Wilson-Sinzini. 11 00:00:58,192 --> 00:01:00,402 So I got really excited about the tech space. 12 00:01:00,402 --> 00:01:07,562 You know, you can't help but be excited when you're in Silicon Valley, working with all these amazing companies, kind of changing the landscape. 13 00:01:07,562 --> 00:01:15,022 I came back to the Midwest where I was from, moved up to partnership and was just trying to manage a lot of deals. 14 00:01:15,022 --> 00:01:20,562 did, you know, when you're in a full service law firm, did venture capital, &A and some credit type deals. 15 00:01:20,562 --> 00:01:22,072 And so was working a lot. 16 00:01:22,072 --> 00:01:28,066 came up with the idea for Doxley, you know, kind of in the middle of the night trying to track down a signature page. 17 00:01:28,467 --> 00:01:36,814 So after I made partner, just, you know, realized, you know, I really thought I had a perspective on how to solve a problem that was facing us. 18 00:01:36,814 --> 00:01:50,115 So partnered with the Venture Studio to launch Doxley and grew the business, raised capital, exited within three years, which is pretty quick turn, and then moved up at 19 00:01:50,115 --> 00:01:51,706 Lutera to run 20 00:01:51,730 --> 00:02:00,632 um, CorpDev and help them, um, lead them through 10 acquisitions in about 18 months, which was quite a run. 21 00:02:00,793 --> 00:02:05,594 And then, um, took a little bit of a break, continued as an advisor to Lutera. 22 00:02:05,594 --> 00:02:15,377 And then when Jenny, I came out, was just excited about the possibility to solve problems that I had wanted to solve while I was leading Doxley and in at Lutera. 23 00:02:15,377 --> 00:02:20,078 And so partnered with, the co-founder Brett Balmer Foundation. 24 00:02:20,271 --> 00:02:24,956 And we built some of Lotteria's new Gen.AI products with Lotteria team. 25 00:02:25,258 --> 00:02:26,000 Interesting. 26 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,586 So what did Doxley do exactly? 27 00:02:28,866 --> 00:02:30,778 Yeah, so DocSafe was transaction management. 28 00:02:30,778 --> 00:02:39,595 So when you have a deal, you typically have a checklist that was living in Word and it'd be a list of all the documents that needed to be drafted, consents that needed to be 29 00:02:39,595 --> 00:02:47,942 obtained, everything you needed to do to complete this transaction because before money changes hands, you need to make sure everything's buttoned up. 30 00:02:47,942 --> 00:02:54,607 Every document is, you know, is finalized, I is dotted, T is crossed and all signature pages obtained. 31 00:02:54,607 --> 00:02:58,222 And so we are that platform that allow people to see 32 00:02:58,222 --> 00:03:00,163 you know, what were the final versions of agreements? 33 00:03:00,163 --> 00:03:02,164 We created all the signature pages. 34 00:03:02,164 --> 00:03:04,145 We packeted everything together. 35 00:03:04,145 --> 00:03:15,070 We basically brought, you know, project management, workflow management to the transaction space and so helped create this category that continues today of transaction management. 36 00:03:15,222 --> 00:03:17,907 Interesting and what year did you start Doxley? 37 00:03:18,122 --> 00:03:19,534 in 2016. 38 00:03:19,534 --> 00:03:19,954 Okay. 39 00:03:19,954 --> 00:03:22,494 So you exited 2019. 40 00:03:23,234 --> 00:03:23,494 All right. 41 00:03:23,494 --> 00:03:25,724 That's yeah, that that's an interesting time. 42 00:03:25,724 --> 00:03:26,034 Yeah. 43 00:03:26,034 --> 00:03:31,354 The timing, cause things got crazy during the Zerp era. 44 00:03:31,354 --> 00:03:43,374 And you know, especially in 2020 when the fed started injecting trillions of dollars of liquidity into the economy and all that capital had to find a home. 45 00:03:43,374 --> 00:03:48,620 And it really drove up valuations because there weren't really 46 00:03:48,620 --> 00:03:58,034 that many productive places, it almost forced investors to be speculative, highly speculative, and drove valuations up a lot. 47 00:03:58,562 --> 00:04:08,764 you started to see even at C rounds, even pre-product rounds where people, there wasn't, you know, it's like you've seen the ebb and flow of how capital moves where for a while 48 00:04:08,764 --> 00:04:15,949 you were seeing a lot of money going in at early stages where you hadn't, you know, products weren't really on the market, product market fit hadn't been proven. 49 00:04:15,949 --> 00:04:17,830 So you started seeing money go early. 50 00:04:17,830 --> 00:04:21,151 Then there was a time period where we actually saw it shrink back. 51 00:04:21,151 --> 00:04:22,642 Like those were really speculative. 52 00:04:22,642 --> 00:04:25,413 Okay, so now we're going to see higher expectations. 53 00:04:25,413 --> 00:04:28,470 But in that timeframe, when there was so much capital, 54 00:04:28,470 --> 00:04:40,941 and people needed to figure out what to do with it, we saw a return to high valuations in earlier rounds without some of that expectation of product market fit that some investors 55 00:04:40,941 --> 00:04:45,745 had become a little bit more used to in terms of deciding to deploy. 56 00:04:45,922 --> 00:04:46,192 Yeah. 57 00:04:46,192 --> 00:04:50,907 Imagine that like needing product market fit before you write a check. 58 00:04:50,907 --> 00:04:54,991 Like that seems like very fundamental requirement. 59 00:04:54,991 --> 00:04:58,774 Um, certainly would be for me to, to write a check. 60 00:04:58,774 --> 00:05:01,076 But so you took a break in there. 61 00:05:01,076 --> 00:05:07,572 It sounds like on the corp dev is that when Peter from clock demiser, was he in that role for a bit? 62 00:05:07,573 --> 00:05:08,853 so was helped. 63 00:05:08,853 --> 00:05:10,625 So Peter was on my team. 64 00:05:11,246 --> 00:05:15,169 was, Clocktomizer was one of the first acquisitions I did for Laterra. 65 00:05:15,309 --> 00:05:29,061 And so then he was on my team and then they had brought in a Chief Corps Dev Officer, Alan, who worked with, and he and Peter worked together on kind of continuing in that 66 00:05:29,061 --> 00:05:29,301 role. 67 00:05:29,301 --> 00:05:35,646 And then I maintained as the strategic advisor on that front as well and on the product side a little bit more. 68 00:05:36,110 --> 00:05:36,790 Gotcha. 69 00:05:36,790 --> 00:05:41,862 So tell me about the role, the role you're in now, because it sounds really interesting. 70 00:05:41,862 --> 00:05:52,757 It sounds like you're almost like an intrapreneur here where you've been able to like create a startup within an existing company, which I imagine has definitely has some 71 00:05:52,757 --> 00:05:53,397 benefits. 72 00:05:53,397 --> 00:05:57,039 I imagine there's probably downside to like with everything, right? 73 00:05:57,039 --> 00:06:05,312 But like you've got, you've got the, the, the resources and the market power and tell me about the role. 74 00:06:05,312 --> 00:06:12,354 Yeah, so that was, you know, that was really, it's been, I give a lot of credit to Lutera for really trying to think outside of the box when Gen.ai came out. 75 00:06:12,354 --> 00:06:13,785 So we're, you know, we're a big company. 76 00:06:13,785 --> 00:06:25,128 have a product set that it had established roadmaps that they had to pivot in order to think about where Gen.ai fit into those core drafting and diligence workflows, know, and 77 00:06:25,128 --> 00:06:27,849 AI product and Cura, how does that need to pivot? 78 00:06:27,849 --> 00:06:29,140 So they needed to take a lot. 79 00:06:29,140 --> 00:06:30,710 They needed to have a really 80 00:06:30,710 --> 00:06:35,033 strategic focus on how they were going to take a look at this new technology. 81 00:06:35,033 --> 00:06:43,870 And I think they made really smart decisions and in bringing it in where it made sense and not trying to pivot entire product lines, like you need to deliver on the things you 82 00:06:43,870 --> 00:06:45,865 promised to customers and think through it. 83 00:06:45,865 --> 00:06:53,077 So while you're thinking through how to address all these big product lines, there's still opportunities to fill gaps. 84 00:06:53,077 --> 00:06:57,710 And a lot of times, you know, in bigger companies, you fill gaps through acquisition, but 85 00:06:57,710 --> 00:07:00,640 You know, with Gen.ai, there was so much going on all at once. 86 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,890 You really needed to think about how could I build something new? 87 00:07:03,890 --> 00:07:11,150 And so I had come to them with an idea that I had wanted to work on in the deal point extraction. 88 00:07:11,150 --> 00:07:16,330 When I had Doxy, one of the last things we did in the platform was we created a closing book. 89 00:07:16,330 --> 00:07:19,980 All the documents in the transaction, putting them all together, indexed. 90 00:07:19,980 --> 00:07:22,130 So everyone had the clear picture of that. 91 00:07:22,130 --> 00:07:26,048 But what I had wanted to do is take it one step further and say, okay, 92 00:07:26,048 --> 00:07:30,602 Once you have that closing book, you have all the documents that show you what a transaction is. 93 00:07:30,602 --> 00:07:34,546 Now, can we take the data points out of those documents and leverage them? 94 00:07:34,546 --> 00:07:43,094 They're super critical, super important and valuable in terms of winning the next deal, understanding what precedent looks like, what market looks like. 95 00:07:43,094 --> 00:07:51,758 And so I've always had wanted to, you know, kind of have a survey at the end of a deal so that you could start to collect these data points. 96 00:07:51,758 --> 00:07:56,298 Um, but with gen AI, we've thought, okay, wait, what if we could automatically collect those? 97 00:07:56,298 --> 00:08:00,278 So I brought the idea to Latera and they were like, what if you built it with us? 98 00:08:00,278 --> 00:08:02,638 And I was like, okay, well, I know who I'd want to build it with. 99 00:08:02,638 --> 00:08:05,958 so Brett Balmer, he, you know, I'll build interaction. 100 00:08:05,958 --> 00:08:09,088 He was the CGO founder of, of foundation. 101 00:08:09,088 --> 00:08:14,588 Like no one understood like databases and complex sets of information like Brett does. 102 00:08:14,588 --> 00:08:17,078 And like, I truly believe he has like a magician. 103 00:08:17,078 --> 00:08:18,998 So I called him and told him what I wanted to do. 104 00:08:18,998 --> 00:08:21,876 And we, put together a pitch for Latera. 105 00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:32,364 And, you know, as the person that's done M &A, I knew that one of the biggest challenges in bringing in technology that you're acquiring is getting the tech stacks to talk to each 106 00:08:32,364 --> 00:08:32,934 other. 107 00:08:32,934 --> 00:08:38,999 Since we both worked at Latera and we both understood the Latera tech stack, we said, what if we do this together? 108 00:08:38,999 --> 00:08:49,642 And what if we build it together so that we can build it into integrations directly into core systems that Latera already has with, you know, bringing in both our 109 00:08:49,642 --> 00:08:52,274 our ability to work as like almost like a small company. 110 00:08:52,274 --> 00:08:53,465 Let us be a startup. 111 00:08:53,465 --> 00:08:55,407 Let us use startup practices. 112 00:08:55,407 --> 00:09:02,132 Let's break from traditional, you know, some of the more like bigger company, like, um, you know, kind of processes. 113 00:09:02,132 --> 00:09:03,313 Let us build this. 114 00:09:03,313 --> 00:09:07,497 We worked with theory and principle to do a lot of the design on the product. 115 00:09:07,497 --> 00:09:14,002 We did a lot of things on our own, and then we worked with a lot of the Latera team to like kind of bring it in. 116 00:09:14,002 --> 00:09:19,404 So we knew that this way we could move faster because we were kind of a startup. 117 00:09:19,404 --> 00:09:26,578 And we are very startup minded individuals and we could work with customers that we knew and trusted and knew and trusted us. 118 00:09:26,578 --> 00:09:28,499 And then we could bring it over to the terrace. 119 00:09:28,499 --> 00:09:32,551 That would be easier for them to bring into, into the product set. 120 00:09:32,551 --> 00:09:36,223 So it was a totally different creative way of working. 121 00:09:36,223 --> 00:09:38,224 It was really, really cool. 122 00:09:38,224 --> 00:09:40,125 Um, I mean, I've loved it. 123 00:09:40,125 --> 00:09:48,810 And so then I've kind of stayed on and helping bring it over, um, and, and work with the team on how it looks from a go-to-market perspective and everything. 124 00:09:48,810 --> 00:09:49,504 So. 125 00:09:49,504 --> 00:09:54,998 It is, it's definitely been a really exciting role in different, different way of doing things. 126 00:09:54,998 --> 00:09:55,308 Yeah. 127 00:09:55,308 --> 00:09:58,181 And that platform is dragon, correct? 128 00:09:58,562 --> 00:09:58,973 Okay. 129 00:09:58,973 --> 00:10:01,856 And then you're also working on another lattice. 130 00:10:01,856 --> 00:10:02,206 Yeah. 131 00:10:02,206 --> 00:10:13,889 So we, when we were presenting them the idea for Dragon, they had been also evaluating what does it look like to be able to take all these databases of information and ask 132 00:10:13,889 --> 00:10:14,800 complex questions. 133 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:15,400 And we agreed. 134 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:23,752 We were like, look, if you can start to access all the information that's in your documents and foundation has access to the experience and we can tap into financial 135 00:10:23,752 --> 00:10:25,713 systems and things like that. 136 00:10:25,713 --> 00:10:30,494 What if we could query across all systems that wants to ask really, truly complex questions? 137 00:10:30,494 --> 00:10:31,254 So. 138 00:10:31,278 --> 00:10:42,978 If I want to know how many &A deals did we do in the last six months that have an earn out and rollover and where we have a realization rate of 95 % because I need to price a new 139 00:10:42,978 --> 00:10:53,108 deal and I want to make sure that this is we were I'm looking for budget numbers that fit in this like and maybe the deal needs to be in the 50 to 100 million dollar range. 140 00:10:53,108 --> 00:10:55,918 So I want to pull all that information together. 141 00:10:55,918 --> 00:10:57,958 You can ask lattice that question. 142 00:10:57,958 --> 00:11:00,226 It'll pull up every deal that you've done. 143 00:11:00,226 --> 00:11:04,750 so you can start to see what the answers are. 144 00:11:04,750 --> 00:11:16,062 And so we wanted to give you a, kind of do a flip on enterprise, on how search works by being able to like really connect people with the information and data, put together all 145 00:11:16,062 --> 00:11:19,301 of the relevancy and start to pair different databases together. 146 00:11:19,301 --> 00:11:25,926 So really want to be able to ask complex questions of databases that don't always talk to each other. 147 00:11:26,478 --> 00:11:36,337 And is this really, are you laying the foundation for firms to create an AFA offering in the transaction space? 148 00:11:36,884 --> 00:11:40,816 If they, mean, they can start to pull all the information together. 149 00:11:40,816 --> 00:11:42,636 And so it should be able to give them. 150 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:47,878 I mean, I think if you talk to people that are in the transaction space, you know, everyone's like, we don't do AFAs. 151 00:11:47,878 --> 00:11:50,420 And I was like, do you do a budget? 152 00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:54,061 Like you give a client, a client calls you and says, what is this going to cost? 153 00:11:54,061 --> 00:11:56,876 And you're like about $250,000. 154 00:11:56,876 --> 00:12:00,329 Okay, well the client heard it costs no more than $250,000. 155 00:12:00,329 --> 00:12:02,371 So they've set a budget. 156 00:12:02,371 --> 00:12:10,058 So it's on the AFA because if you go under, they are only getting billed for whatever is under, but in their mind, you are not going over. 157 00:12:10,058 --> 00:12:12,160 So that budget is more of a cap. 158 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:18,355 So you better be communicating them with throughout the transaction if the cap, if you're going to exceed that and explain why. 159 00:12:18,355 --> 00:12:20,647 And sometimes that, you you take on more work. 160 00:12:20,647 --> 00:12:22,199 They want you to review more diligence. 161 00:12:22,199 --> 00:12:23,490 They want you to... 162 00:12:23,490 --> 00:12:25,100 the deal got more complicated. 163 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:29,512 The earn out structure became really, really complex. 164 00:12:29,512 --> 00:12:34,373 So there are always reasons why that initial budget number may not end up being the end number. 165 00:12:34,373 --> 00:12:37,294 But once you've said it, the client has heard it. 166 00:12:37,294 --> 00:12:43,636 And so to some extent, you've given yourself an AFA just with no downside protection. 167 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:48,400 So it's like, if you're really efficient and you do it for 200, you're only getting 200. 168 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,330 In an AFA, you would have gotten 250. 169 00:12:52,312 --> 00:13:07,733 We're good at hedging, so yeah, so I would love to be in a position where people could set a price that's tied more to the value that they feel like they're driving for the deal and 170 00:13:07,733 --> 00:13:14,558 then benefit from using the technology that's going to make them more efficient and deliver higher value client work. 171 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:19,772 so I think more data allows you to do that more confidently. 172 00:13:19,928 --> 00:13:20,238 Yeah. 173 00:13:20,238 --> 00:13:24,182 I mean, this is an issue that we were prior to info dash. 174 00:13:24,182 --> 00:13:35,732 were a company called Acrowire and we were consultants and we dealt with clients trying to push us down the not, we call it not to exceed, you know, the not to exceed path. 175 00:13:35,732 --> 00:13:40,256 And, it's a losing proposition for the vendor for the reasons that you just stated. 176 00:13:40,256 --> 00:13:47,662 It's like, okay, I have, I have to take risk in case, you know, costs do run. 177 00:13:47,766 --> 00:13:50,278 run over budget, but I've got no upside. 178 00:13:50,278 --> 00:13:52,469 So I've only got downside in that equation. 179 00:13:52,469 --> 00:14:00,014 Um, so yeah, that is an issue we've grappled with and you're exactly right about once you throw a number out there. 180 00:14:00,014 --> 00:14:10,531 So how, how we contend with that is we, know, there's only so much like pre-sales engineering that you can do on a product deal, right? 181 00:14:10,531 --> 00:14:13,824 Like you come in, you do, we do a gap analysis. 182 00:14:13,824 --> 00:14:17,772 We, we ask the client all the things, all the right questions. 183 00:14:17,772 --> 00:14:25,724 And we get back, um, we get back data, we create assumptions, acceptance criteria, and then the project kicks off. 184 00:14:25,724 --> 00:14:35,417 And then we have an engineering phase where there's a lot of validation that happens and all the time there will be a new stakeholder that pops up and go, here's Joe from 185 00:14:35,417 --> 00:14:35,927 marketing. 186 00:14:35,927 --> 00:14:36,157 Yeah. 187 00:14:36,157 --> 00:14:37,718 Joe wants to do that differently. 188 00:14:37,718 --> 00:14:43,910 Like, okay, Joe can have anything he wants, but we have to create a change order to accommodate for that. 189 00:14:44,030 --> 00:14:45,356 And you know, 190 00:14:45,356 --> 00:14:56,612 Sometimes those are tough conversations, but the reality is you can't put all that risk on the vendor side and just say like fixed price requires fixed scope. 191 00:14:56,612 --> 00:15:00,694 If scope changes, then price has to change. 192 00:15:00,694 --> 00:15:10,320 So yeah, that is, you know, something we've struggled with for, for many years and come up with, um, a pretty good process to manage it. 193 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:15,138 But like, what are opportunities I can see in 194 00:15:15,138 --> 00:15:19,780 doing what you're doing with this startup inside an existing company. 195 00:15:20,942 --> 00:15:22,724 What are there? 196 00:15:22,724 --> 00:15:25,035 Were are there challenges or things that are different? 197 00:15:25,035 --> 00:15:29,068 Like I would imagine, yeah, you've got the resources. 198 00:15:30,129 --> 00:15:35,273 Is there the same like when I think of startup, I think of aggressive risk taking right? 199 00:15:35,273 --> 00:15:36,714 Like is there? 200 00:15:37,195 --> 00:15:40,777 Do they have to pull the reins on that a little bit like? 201 00:15:41,478 --> 00:15:42,368 Yeah. 202 00:15:42,578 --> 00:15:46,398 think the one difference here is that we are very known quantities. 203 00:15:46,398 --> 00:15:47,518 We knew the business. 204 00:15:47,518 --> 00:15:50,348 and I both, I mean, my company was acquired in 2019. 205 00:15:50,348 --> 00:15:54,346 We started this in 2023, working with them to do this. 206 00:15:54,346 --> 00:15:59,709 And so, you know, both of us have run companies before, both of us have been in the litera business. 207 00:15:59,709 --> 00:16:01,910 We, you know, we knew the people we were working for. 208 00:16:01,910 --> 00:16:04,671 We knew the products that we were integrating into. 209 00:16:04,671 --> 00:16:14,776 And so like we were able to really clearly identify scope, but because we'd also been, you know, founders and done this, we, actually knew we needed to be really tight on what the 210 00:16:14,776 --> 00:16:19,238 scope was that we were willing, that we needed to deliver in order to get them started. 211 00:16:19,238 --> 00:16:20,246 And I think. 212 00:16:20,246 --> 00:16:27,149 I think that is that comes from a lot of like trust and communication to say, okay, this is where this can go. 213 00:16:27,149 --> 00:16:28,739 Like similar to other companies. 214 00:16:28,739 --> 00:16:31,781 When you have a startup, you always should understand where you can go. 215 00:16:31,781 --> 00:16:33,141 What is this going to do? 216 00:16:33,141 --> 00:16:34,672 What am I building towards? 217 00:16:34,672 --> 00:16:37,513 But with an aggressive focus on what am I actually delivering? 218 00:16:37,513 --> 00:16:48,478 And so I think we, because we've done this before and Retson in a number of times, like he knew exactly what we were like, we are committing to these things. 219 00:16:48,478 --> 00:16:49,666 And I think that. 220 00:16:49,666 --> 00:16:56,511 I think that helps everyone involved because if you're very clear and we had very detailed like this is what we're going to do. 221 00:16:56,511 --> 00:16:58,112 This is how we're going to do it. 222 00:16:58,112 --> 00:17:08,179 Like it was able we were able to all agree on it and you know, doesn't hurt that like a number of people on every side of the deal or lawyers like some lawyers I know how to deal 223 00:17:08,179 --> 00:17:14,563 terms but might as well be a lawyer at this point to some extent and so we were able to literally back out like this is what we're going to do. 224 00:17:14,563 --> 00:17:15,884 These are the exact features. 225 00:17:15,884 --> 00:17:17,185 This is what it's going to look like. 226 00:17:17,185 --> 00:17:18,506 This is how we're going to do it. 227 00:17:18,506 --> 00:17:19,340 This is 228 00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:21,760 This is how everything kind of comes together. 229 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:29,518 Um, because it was just, um, I think also because we all knew each other, we didn't want there to be any sort of issues. 230 00:17:29,518 --> 00:17:32,740 wanted to say, this is what we were delivering and this is how we're going to do it. 231 00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:36,062 And so that sort of stuff works really well. 232 00:17:36,062 --> 00:17:43,888 Now, you know, there's like on a different side of it, you know, it's like, everyone has their own ideas of what happens with something once it's kind of done and moves to the 233 00:17:43,888 --> 00:17:46,414 next stage and how you would handle things or. 234 00:17:46,414 --> 00:17:52,294 how I would have chosen to do something if I was a startup CEO versus kind of helping, just helping. 235 00:17:52,294 --> 00:17:57,034 So there's always going to be things that I would say I would do this differently or I would do it slightly differently. 236 00:17:57,034 --> 00:18:01,814 And they would be like, okay, but here's why and here's how it fits into the bigger things they have going on. 237 00:18:01,814 --> 00:18:06,334 And so it's like, we all have our own vision of how certain things go. 238 00:18:06,334 --> 00:18:11,614 Fortunately, we've been very aligned on that, but there's always gonna be those moments of like, why would you do this? 239 00:18:11,614 --> 00:18:13,474 And they're like, we would do this. 240 00:18:13,734 --> 00:18:16,254 But it was funny, 241 00:18:16,334 --> 00:18:18,144 Dragon was actually supposed to be a code name. 242 00:18:18,144 --> 00:18:18,904 It was supposed to come up. 243 00:18:18,904 --> 00:18:22,524 There was supposed to be a new name at some point, but everyone just started calling it that. 244 00:18:22,524 --> 00:18:24,794 And so then all of a sudden it was Dragon. 245 00:18:24,794 --> 00:18:29,964 And so was like, that may have been one where it was like, that was just an idea that I had, cause I'm a deal attorney. 246 00:18:29,964 --> 00:18:31,154 And so it was a deal database. 247 00:18:31,154 --> 00:18:33,694 I called it Dragon as a code name, Project Dragon. 248 00:18:33,694 --> 00:18:36,954 And then it ended up turning into something totally different. 249 00:18:36,954 --> 00:18:39,664 So, you you, you find your way through it. 250 00:18:39,664 --> 00:18:45,806 Um, and it ends up in places that maybe you didn't think it would in the start, but it's been, was honestly, it's been. 251 00:18:45,806 --> 00:18:47,027 It's been really great. 252 00:18:47,074 --> 00:18:49,435 Yeah, I mean you guys are uniquely positioned. 253 00:18:49,435 --> 00:18:50,696 mean the mod. 254 00:18:50,696 --> 00:18:59,621 I'm curious if you think this model will be replicated again, maybe inside Lutera and other places. 255 00:18:59,621 --> 00:19:06,345 You guys have a really unique ingredients here and position, so I don't know how replicatable. 256 00:19:06,345 --> 00:19:07,816 are your thoughts on that? 257 00:19:07,958 --> 00:19:10,229 You know, I would love to see it be replicated. 258 00:19:10,229 --> 00:19:16,693 I've always had, you know, I have different ideas, like whether they would be ones I would do with Latera again, with or someone else. 259 00:19:16,693 --> 00:19:24,837 It'd be it is an interesting way to do things because it, it allows a bigger company to take a risk on doing something. 260 00:19:24,837 --> 00:19:27,898 And but with a little bit more control. 261 00:19:27,898 --> 00:19:31,042 And I, you know, it's like, look, I've seen 262 00:19:31,042 --> 00:19:32,142 I've seen acquisitions work. 263 00:19:32,142 --> 00:19:33,893 I've seen acquisitions not go as well. 264 00:19:33,893 --> 00:19:40,296 I've seen like promising companies not, you know, meet their full potential because, you know, they had to pivot in what they did. 265 00:19:40,296 --> 00:19:51,290 And so it's like to see something get to be built, to see new things enter the market and then have an immediate home and the immediate opportunity to grow. 266 00:19:51,290 --> 00:19:53,071 It's really cool. 267 00:19:53,912 --> 00:19:55,942 So I actually really like it. 268 00:19:55,942 --> 00:19:59,354 I would love to do, you know, I'd love to do it again. 269 00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:06,713 You know, it's a really interesting way to bring new technology to market. 270 00:20:06,713 --> 00:20:09,985 But it's like, you kind of need the right ingredients. 271 00:20:09,985 --> 00:20:12,213 Like could we replicate it again? 272 00:20:12,213 --> 00:20:13,066 I don't know. 273 00:20:13,066 --> 00:20:21,300 Like, you know, you need people that understand the underlying business that you're building for, the product sets that fill their gaps. 274 00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:25,201 And then you have to have the trust of the company that you can build it for them. 275 00:20:26,062 --> 00:20:30,882 I think there are people in the market that could have, that could put those ingredients together. 276 00:20:31,522 --> 00:20:32,522 So we'll see. 277 00:20:32,522 --> 00:20:33,752 I would love to see it again. 278 00:20:33,752 --> 00:20:35,807 It was, I think it's really cool. 279 00:20:35,807 --> 00:20:36,947 it is really cool. 280 00:20:36,947 --> 00:20:49,112 And you know, I, the, the corporate skillset is very, very, very different than the startup founder skillset, like night and day different. 281 00:20:49,733 --> 00:20:51,864 my wife and I own five gyms here in St. 282 00:20:51,864 --> 00:20:56,416 Louis and we're part of a franchise brand and she runs that business. 283 00:20:56,416 --> 00:21:01,858 run info dash, but I kind of helped her get going and got real involved with the brand for. 284 00:21:02,038 --> 00:21:11,964 a hot minute and I saw and started a franchisee association and we were, you know, our charter was really kind of help franchisees that were struggling. 285 00:21:12,205 --> 00:21:17,569 And I saw some people who were very, very successful. 286 00:21:17,569 --> 00:21:28,706 One of them was a CEO of a fortune 500 company in the corporate world who jumped in to entrepreneurship and really, really struggled. 287 00:21:28,706 --> 00:21:31,658 In fact, I don't know if he's still involved. 288 00:21:31,717 --> 00:21:37,972 And, you know, he had the most impressive corporate legal resume that you could imagine. 289 00:21:37,972 --> 00:21:44,036 But, you know, when you're when you're a founder and an entrepreneur, you've got very limited resources. 290 00:21:44,036 --> 00:21:51,992 Typically, I think you guys are an exception here, but someone jumping out on their own and starting a new business, very limited resources. 291 00:21:51,992 --> 00:21:55,034 The risk reward equation is very different. 292 00:21:55,034 --> 00:22:00,758 Like when you sign like in the gyms, for example, you sign a 10 year lease with a personal guarantee. 293 00:22:01,004 --> 00:22:04,536 or you go get an SBA loan and they put a lien on your house. 294 00:22:04,536 --> 00:22:06,777 Like that doesn't happen in the corporate world, right? 295 00:22:06,777 --> 00:22:09,258 If things don't work out, you go find another job. 296 00:22:09,258 --> 00:22:21,583 It's not, you lose everything and that creates a different dynamic that you, and lens that you use on decision-making and you have to be willing to push and take risks or cause it's 297 00:22:21,583 --> 00:22:26,205 impossible to get upside without taking risk. 298 00:22:26,205 --> 00:22:28,886 So yeah, you guys are unique. 299 00:22:29,004 --> 00:22:32,746 Yeah, and it is, you know, it's one of those things like it's a different position. 300 00:22:32,746 --> 00:22:40,850 You're working at different, like, I mean, I just remember starting Doxley and I had friends and family that invested in High Alpha, which was the venture studio I worked 301 00:22:40,850 --> 00:22:41,140 with. 302 00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:42,801 respected every person was in there. 303 00:22:42,801 --> 00:22:44,352 So it's a different set of risks. 304 00:22:44,352 --> 00:22:51,685 Like you've got a lot of people counting on you, have employees counting on you you're like, my gosh, every day I've got to think about how I'm going to take the next step. 305 00:22:51,685 --> 00:22:53,400 You know, in this instance, like, 306 00:22:53,400 --> 00:23:02,097 We're building something for a company that we care about, that we've spent a lot of time with, that we have a vested interest in making successful. 307 00:23:02,097 --> 00:23:07,521 And so it's again, it's just like, what are the things we need to do? 308 00:23:07,521 --> 00:23:09,883 And I think that's why sometimes it works. 309 00:23:09,883 --> 00:23:18,080 So if you're really passionate about what you're doing, what you're building, and I think you see that, people that leave from the corporate side that are like, I've been very 310 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:19,451 successful in my job. 311 00:23:19,451 --> 00:23:22,613 I have ideas of how things are broken and I'm going to fix them. 312 00:23:22,934 --> 00:23:32,517 always bring the same level of passion to being like a startup founder and whether that's an entrepreneur or just a true startup, like it's a lot of work. 313 00:23:32,517 --> 00:23:33,547 It's a lot of risk. 314 00:23:33,547 --> 00:23:38,399 It's a lot of, of, have to do a lot of the things myself. 315 00:23:38,399 --> 00:23:45,901 And if you are not a CEO that's willing to roll up your sleeves, take out the recycling, you know, take a customer support call. 316 00:23:45,901 --> 00:23:48,542 used to take Doxley support calls at like two in the morning. 317 00:23:48,542 --> 00:23:50,432 Like if my team was asleep, 318 00:23:50,432 --> 00:23:55,126 I was answering the phone because in the RVB of engineering, like the two of us would be like 3 a.m. 319 00:23:55,126 --> 00:24:01,231 talking and making sure a signature page got out because when you're in those early days, like every moment counts. 320 00:24:01,231 --> 00:24:13,422 And if, if you've come from an area where you've got a huge team underneath you making that transition to I own everything, I have to do everything, this risk lands with me. 321 00:24:13,422 --> 00:24:15,464 It's a, it's a total different mindset. 322 00:24:15,464 --> 00:24:18,552 And we, we brought the same. 323 00:24:18,552 --> 00:24:23,927 care and concern that we had for our individual startups to what we were doing with Dragon and Lattice. 324 00:24:23,927 --> 00:24:31,594 so like Brett and I would be on late night calls, working on the product, figuring something out, talking through what we needed to do on this. 325 00:24:31,594 --> 00:24:34,676 Did we need to pivot the product slightly because of some feedback? 326 00:24:34,676 --> 00:24:40,402 Like we took every bit of it as serious as if we had our own startup that we were building. 327 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,461 You know, and on the flip side is true as well. 328 00:24:43,461 --> 00:24:43,741 Right. 329 00:24:43,741 --> 00:24:56,715 So, you know, people could be very successful in the corporate side and, and, and not so on the founder side, but founders, they get acquired and have earn outs struggle. 330 00:24:56,735 --> 00:24:58,136 How many times have you seen it? 331 00:24:58,136 --> 00:24:58,466 Right. 332 00:24:58,466 --> 00:25:05,068 Like where a founder, you know, a startup gets acquired, founder has an earn out and it is a disaster. 333 00:25:05,068 --> 00:25:10,597 because you're now working inside of a big organization with constraints and processes and things. 334 00:25:10,597 --> 00:25:12,760 And they're like, what do mean I can't do that? 335 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,174 Well, yeah, cause we have process. 336 00:25:15,388 --> 00:25:15,768 Right. 337 00:25:15,768 --> 00:25:25,937 And it is, it is a struggle when you, when you take on every role to the down to the likes of work calls, having someone want to change how you do something because you need to 338 00:25:25,937 --> 00:25:26,677 scale. 339 00:25:26,677 --> 00:25:28,859 It's a hard thing to let go of. 340 00:25:28,859 --> 00:25:33,183 And it's a hard thing to let go of in some instances, the creative control. 341 00:25:33,183 --> 00:25:39,408 Like I, you know, I, you know, build Doxley, I love Doxley, but we are combining Doxley and Workshare Transact. 342 00:25:39,408 --> 00:25:41,780 And, you know, we needed to. 343 00:25:41,780 --> 00:25:43,010 make decisions. 344 00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:44,421 so ego had to come out of it. 345 00:25:44,421 --> 00:25:54,944 Like I knew from the beginning, most likely, even though I love the name Doxley, like that was most likely not going to fit in Laterra's world of compare, create, and very verb 346 00:25:54,944 --> 00:25:55,554 driven things. 347 00:25:55,554 --> 00:25:57,334 So Transact made a lot of sense. 348 00:25:57,334 --> 00:25:58,885 And they asked me, they're like, Are you okay with this? 349 00:25:58,885 --> 00:26:00,335 Do you want us to come up with a new name? 350 00:26:00,335 --> 00:26:01,726 So it's neither of the two products. 351 00:26:01,726 --> 00:26:05,597 And was like, why the name Transact fits perfectly. 352 00:26:05,597 --> 00:26:09,602 Like, I can let go of my ego in what I built. 353 00:26:09,602 --> 00:26:14,245 You want to change some of the design as long as that's going to drive the value to the customers. 354 00:26:14,245 --> 00:26:15,586 Fine. 355 00:26:15,586 --> 00:26:26,012 you have to like, there's a lot of ego that goes into building a startup and that you have to like, put so much of your heart and soul in it becomes, I joked when I sold Doxley, the 356 00:26:26,012 --> 00:26:28,352 code name for the project was Delano. 357 00:26:28,633 --> 00:26:32,235 Like, they were doing, Latara was doing, or HG was doing president's names. 358 00:26:32,235 --> 00:26:35,197 so Delano is for Franklin Delano Roosevelt. 359 00:26:35,197 --> 00:26:37,710 My kids names are Kennedy and Madison. 360 00:26:37,710 --> 00:26:41,950 So it was like a perfect, like it was just perfect. 361 00:26:41,970 --> 00:26:44,170 My code name for selling Doxley was Delano. 362 00:26:44,170 --> 00:26:46,070 It was like, it was like another child. 363 00:26:46,070 --> 00:26:47,330 And that's what it feels like. 364 00:26:47,330 --> 00:26:55,440 You've built this thing, you put every ounce of your, you've not slept, you've stressed, you've, you know, you've put so much into it. 365 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,620 And so you're, you have to give that up. 366 00:26:58,620 --> 00:27:02,030 But when you're in a big company, ego has to come out of it. 367 00:27:02,030 --> 00:27:03,910 Not everything I built was going to be perfect. 368 00:27:03,910 --> 00:27:06,860 Not everything we did, not every choice we made was the right one. 369 00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:13,146 And we needed to optimize for what was going to fit into Laterra, what was going to fit in bringing the products together. 370 00:27:13,146 --> 00:27:23,205 And so you, you have to be able to take your personal sense of what it is out there and figure out what does working in the bigger, broader good look like. 371 00:27:23,205 --> 00:27:27,949 And it is, it is not a transition that every startup founder can do. 372 00:27:27,949 --> 00:27:33,870 And that may be the benefit of being a law firm partner and having to take your ego out of a lot of things. 373 00:27:33,870 --> 00:27:39,070 and then going into startup and having to learn and be creative and then going back. 374 00:27:39,070 --> 00:27:46,290 it's like I've been in the firm world for a long time and then I had been in startup. 375 00:27:46,290 --> 00:27:54,322 So I think I was able to go back and understand like there is a difference in terms of what we're doing and what we're going to accomplish. 376 00:27:54,690 --> 00:27:58,293 Yeah, I've been a, um, I've been an entrepreneur for 32 years. 377 00:27:58,293 --> 00:28:03,116 I've been an operator for 22 of those, that 10 year Delta. 378 00:28:03,116 --> 00:28:07,118 spent a little bit of time at Microsoft and bank of America. 379 00:28:07,299 --> 00:28:11,011 And man, I learned that was such a good learning experience for me. 380 00:28:11,011 --> 00:28:22,329 And if we ever do eventually get acquired, I understand the corporate world and how different it is and will be much better prepared than, you know, your typical 20 something 381 00:28:22,329 --> 00:28:23,810 startup founder who 382 00:28:23,810 --> 00:28:31,293 Maybe spent one or two years practicing at a law firm and jumped out and started and created a startup. 383 00:28:31,313 --> 00:28:35,375 But, um, like, let's talk a little bit about valuations. 384 00:28:35,375 --> 00:28:50,675 Um, this is such an interesting topic and you know, I a lot, follow the space closely and, um, not even before I created a startup that could potentially be an and a target one day. 385 00:28:50,675 --> 00:28:52,512 It's just, I find it fascinating. 386 00:28:52,830 --> 00:29:05,560 And, know, during the ZERP era, the zero interest rate period, they call it, know, valuations got, got sky high and there was this, this growth at all costs mentality. 387 00:29:05,781 --> 00:29:13,427 And what that led to was very low go-to-market efficiency, very high customer acquisition costs. 388 00:29:13,647 --> 00:29:16,470 And, you know, LTV ratios were cacked. 389 00:29:16,470 --> 00:29:19,953 LTV ratios were out of whack. 390 00:29:19,953 --> 00:29:21,934 And, and then the pendulum. 391 00:29:21,934 --> 00:29:24,114 started to swing back, right? 392 00:29:24,114 --> 00:29:32,454 So inflation, um, tightening, you know, fed tightening, reducing quantitative easing, raising of interest rates. 393 00:29:32,454 --> 00:29:42,684 And then all of a sudden there became this, what I think was a disproportionate focus on profit and like, yes, profit is good, but when you're, when you're building a startup, 394 00:29:42,684 --> 00:29:51,572 like our, our goal and info dash is, we want, um, cashflow neutral growth. 395 00:29:51,596 --> 00:29:52,207 Right? 396 00:29:52,207 --> 00:29:56,079 So we're, we're, you know, we do not want to position ourselves. 397 00:29:56,079 --> 00:29:57,060 We're already profitable. 398 00:29:57,060 --> 00:29:58,646 We're three years in. 399 00:29:58,646 --> 00:30:04,995 Um, and we want to maintain that, but growth is worth significantly more than profit on an exit. 400 00:30:04,995 --> 00:30:05,736 Right? 401 00:30:05,736 --> 00:30:16,423 You could be like, if you've ever met modeled out, you probably have where, you know, the rule of 40 where in different scenarios, I had AI do it for me. 402 00:30:16,423 --> 00:30:21,294 I'm not sure how accurate it was, but the least, the, the, the longest break even 403 00:30:21,294 --> 00:30:26,669 period for an acquirer is 40 % profit, 0 % growth, right? 404 00:30:26,669 --> 00:30:30,862 That's the longest, that's longest path to, break even. 405 00:30:30,862 --> 00:30:43,183 Surprisingly, I thought it would be skewed much higher in the growth and a no profit, but it's actually almost like a bell shaped curve and, a healthy mix of both is, is really 406 00:30:43,183 --> 00:30:49,198 gets you there quickest, but it's incredible when I'm seeing these, these valuations, um, 407 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,051 You know, Harvey's a notable example. 408 00:30:51,051 --> 00:30:56,440 Their series B round, I think they were 715 million in about a year ago. 409 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:05,863 And then, um, their series C with 30 million in revenue, the valuation was 1.5 billion. 410 00:31:05,863 --> 00:31:08,184 So that's 50 X revenue. 411 00:31:08,184 --> 00:31:16,050 And I'm thinking to myself, you know, all right, what, what has to happen for the, for those investors? 412 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,411 to have a, an appropriate level of return. 413 00:31:19,411 --> 00:31:23,813 And there's a number of things that are challenging there. 414 00:31:23,813 --> 00:31:25,474 One is the TAM, right? 415 00:31:25,474 --> 00:31:32,177 On the law firm side, there's only about 500 law firms in the world that have more than a hundred attorneys. 416 00:31:32,177 --> 00:31:32,537 Right? 417 00:31:32,537 --> 00:31:38,159 So, and I know that they, they're going to have plenty of work on the inside counsel side. 418 00:31:38,159 --> 00:31:44,602 And I don't know that world well enough to size it, but I know the law firm world really well. 419 00:31:44,602 --> 00:31:45,442 And 420 00:31:45,550 --> 00:31:54,830 You know, so I kinda, I just like threw some assumptions in Claude and said, all right, what would it take to get a break even on that investment? 421 00:31:54,830 --> 00:32:00,580 And it was astounding the things that needed to happen if you were just law firm, which is not the case. 422 00:32:00,580 --> 00:32:04,170 this is take that with a grain of salt, but yeah. 423 00:32:04,170 --> 00:32:07,850 So they would need 75 % market share. 424 00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:14,072 They would need, which would be about 375 of the 500 ish firms. 425 00:32:14,072 --> 00:32:20,083 they would need to generate about $800,000 in revenue per customer. 426 00:32:20,124 --> 00:32:20,544 Right? 427 00:32:20,544 --> 00:32:22,494 So now you got to think about that. 428 00:32:22,494 --> 00:32:32,527 Like, okay, maybe that's possible, very doable on the AmLaw 25 space, not on the NLJ 350 side of that spectrum. 429 00:32:32,827 --> 00:32:40,009 They'd have to have a compound annual growth rate of about 40 % over seven years. 430 00:32:40,349 --> 00:32:42,089 This is just to break even. 431 00:32:42,130 --> 00:32:42,590 Right? 432 00:32:42,590 --> 00:32:44,098 So, and again, I, 433 00:32:44,098 --> 00:32:55,703 This is with a grain of salt because they have a bigger market than what's, but you know, again, uh, venture and funds aren't in the business of breaking even. 434 00:32:55,703 --> 00:32:59,504 So multiply this times 10, right? 435 00:32:59,504 --> 00:33:03,556 And that's where they need to be in order for this investment to make sense. 436 00:33:03,556 --> 00:33:05,187 So like, what is your take? 437 00:33:05,187 --> 00:33:06,077 Clio was another one. 438 00:33:06,077 --> 00:33:11,669 Clio had a massive, um, round, they're much more established than Harvey. 439 00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:13,890 Um, but it was interesting. 440 00:33:13,922 --> 00:33:21,147 think their valuation was three billion, doubling its previous 1.6 valuation in 2021. 441 00:33:21,147 --> 00:33:22,358 How big is the market? 442 00:33:22,358 --> 00:33:23,359 Like, I don't know. 443 00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:24,840 What is your take on where we're at? 444 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:30,493 Cause I feel like we went from the ZERP era growth at all costs driver evaluation. 445 00:33:30,493 --> 00:33:38,099 And it's like that started to the pendulum started to swing in 2022 and then Chat GPT came out and all this AI hype. 446 00:33:38,099 --> 00:33:43,064 it's like the torch got handed to the AI startups and now they're 447 00:33:43,064 --> 00:33:45,068 going crazy with valuations. 448 00:33:45,068 --> 00:33:58,272 Yeah, well, you I mean, okay, look, we saw this once before with contract lifecycle management, where you started to see the 60 acts multiples on valuation in the, you know, 449 00:33:58,272 --> 00:34:00,262 kind of the early ironclad days. 450 00:34:00,262 --> 00:34:11,415 And then you saw like a huge type cycle around that category, this category as a whole has a huge potential, no one has market share, if you could get total market share, the market 451 00:34:11,415 --> 00:34:13,386 is big, and the value is there. 452 00:34:13,386 --> 00:34:15,074 And then what you've seen is 453 00:34:15,074 --> 00:34:25,861 you know, you've seen companies in that space go under or, you know, have to combine and the valuation, whether people are going to end up with the valuations they want on that or 454 00:34:25,861 --> 00:34:33,006 the multiples that they want to, it's still left to be seen because there's still a huge amount of growth opportunity and things like that. 455 00:34:33,006 --> 00:34:36,489 But you started to see these huge valuations. 456 00:34:36,489 --> 00:34:44,174 Then everything started to temper down and everyone was like, okay, wait, this is not the way we are able to really exit. 457 00:34:44,174 --> 00:34:49,714 And so you started to see more, you know, more sensible evaluations, particularly in the legal space. 458 00:34:49,714 --> 00:34:51,234 And then GEN.AI has changed it. 459 00:34:51,234 --> 00:35:01,454 It's, know, it's a new category with, um, you know, new TAM and, you know, people just are not sure all of the different ways that it could touch in all the different ways it will 460 00:35:01,454 --> 00:35:02,734 transform legal work. 461 00:35:02,734 --> 00:35:13,762 And so now you have non-traditional investors who are not necessarily used to a couple of things, law firm sales cycles, um, size of law firm contracts. 462 00:35:13,778 --> 00:35:20,462 and all the security aspects that you need to go through in order for a new technology to enter a space. 463 00:35:20,543 --> 00:35:24,836 So you've got a lot of investors that are excited about the possibility. 464 00:35:24,836 --> 00:35:37,775 They see how the technology, they can understand how legal would be one of the larger impact spaces in with a bigger impact, disproportionate impact on how the, because it's, 465 00:35:37,775 --> 00:35:42,018 it ties to language, ties to reading, ties to documents. 466 00:35:42,018 --> 00:35:48,321 So some of those areas where Gen.ai seems to have a potential bigger impact tie in. 467 00:35:48,321 --> 00:35:54,663 So non-traditional investors are entering the market that don't necessarily understand the full scope of the space. 468 00:35:54,663 --> 00:36:01,546 And so there is a lot of valuations that are higher because they're seeing a lot of opportunity. 469 00:36:01,546 --> 00:36:04,208 The question is, is what is the TrueTam? 470 00:36:04,208 --> 00:36:10,190 Because you're right, law firm market TrueTam is different than 471 00:36:10,190 --> 00:36:22,840 If you're looking at a horizontal venture capital back solution where you can sell across markets and the market and TAM is a lot larger now I would assume that for a Harvey and I 472 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:32,628 would keep them very separate from a Theo because of just the different ways that they look I would assume if you're looking at a Harvey that they are very much looking at a TAM 473 00:36:32,628 --> 00:36:39,894 that is outside of legal probably professional services accounting financial services those areas 474 00:36:40,094 --> 00:36:50,785 probably a mix of things in the diligence and doing the actual diligence work that would actually be traditionally legal work. 475 00:36:50,785 --> 00:36:59,933 So I would imagine that they're going after more areas and that is what's underlying their TAM and what's underlying the investor expectations. 476 00:36:59,933 --> 00:37:05,070 But this means that, and look, they've brought in a great team and they've got a lot of work, but... 477 00:37:05,070 --> 00:37:07,640 They have to deliver on a lot of different fronts. 478 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,870 have to deliver on a law firm market product. 479 00:37:09,870 --> 00:37:12,780 They have to deliver on products that are outside of the law firm market. 480 00:37:12,780 --> 00:37:17,810 They have to deliver on products that may actually start to look like legal services at some point. 481 00:37:17,810 --> 00:37:19,670 That is all those things have to be true. 482 00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:24,480 So there's going to be a lot of expectations on what they can deliver for them to be successful. 483 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,650 And you'll, you'll see that with ones that are kind of broader scope, Gen. 484 00:37:28,650 --> 00:37:29,570 AI. 485 00:37:29,850 --> 00:37:32,690 So I think it's going to be, it'll be interesting to see how it works. 486 00:37:32,690 --> 00:37:34,540 Now that valuation has led. 487 00:37:34,540 --> 00:37:37,982 to a lot of other more like kind of focused Gen. 488 00:37:37,982 --> 00:37:43,436 products, also getting bigger valuations that they are going to have to live up to as well. 489 00:37:44,917 --> 00:37:49,360 And so I get the feeling that we are going to see a lot of down rounds. 490 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,922 A lot of people wanted to enter the market. 491 00:37:51,922 --> 00:37:53,653 They couldn't get in the Harvey investment. 492 00:37:53,653 --> 00:37:56,005 They couldn't get in the Aaliyah investment rounds. 493 00:37:56,005 --> 00:38:03,960 And so they wanted to play with, they started to invest in other players that started to kind of have those like kind of hallmarks of 494 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,391 We are going to enter and disrupt this space and we're going to do it in with this technology. 495 00:38:08,391 --> 00:38:14,593 And you're seeing valuation rounds that are higher than what we would expect based on the TAM that's available. 496 00:38:14,593 --> 00:38:27,467 And so when non-traditional investors don't necessarily have a full sense of the TAM and like, the sales cycles, I think you're going to see money come in at higher valuations and 497 00:38:27,467 --> 00:38:30,598 then the sales are not going to... 498 00:38:30,670 --> 00:38:38,470 the sales velocity is not going to match the amount of money that was put in because law firms still have longer sales cycles. 499 00:38:38,470 --> 00:38:50,330 law firms saw 70 new gen AI companies enter the market and have no capacity to evaluate them in the time or speed that the investors of those companies would expect. 500 00:38:50,330 --> 00:38:57,132 There's too much in the market to truly diligence, pilot, security assess. 501 00:38:57,132 --> 00:39:01,987 So law firms are under extreme amounts of pressure to actually even evaluate technology. 502 00:39:01,987 --> 00:39:13,189 And there's so many new startups and no one knows if those startups are going to make it a year or if they are vaporware or, you know, are they just a pretty front end to GPT? 503 00:39:13,189 --> 00:39:19,306 Are they thin wrappers that don't do much or add much value outside of the core cost of the model? 504 00:39:19,306 --> 00:39:19,970 So. 505 00:39:19,970 --> 00:39:27,452 Law firms can evaluate things at the speed at which it's going to take to move the sales cycles forward for these companies that just got high valuations. 506 00:39:27,452 --> 00:39:32,073 They're burning cash because they hired a lot of expensive engineers and data scientists. 507 00:39:32,073 --> 00:39:36,634 So it's going to be, I think you're going to see a set of down rounds on that area. 508 00:39:37,715 --> 00:39:39,976 I think the Clio is different. 509 00:39:39,976 --> 00:39:42,096 think Clio is an established company. 510 00:39:42,096 --> 00:39:44,077 have a massive customer base. 511 00:39:44,077 --> 00:39:49,302 They moved into the worlds of payments when they kind of cut ties with the Finna pay and law pay. 512 00:39:49,302 --> 00:39:56,904 and they have an entire new set of products that they can sell into a very established, loyal existing customer base. 513 00:39:56,904 --> 00:40:07,557 So I would imagine the Clio valuation is set differently because it is based on, you know, a lot of companies like a Harvey, it's based on the promise of what you can build in 514 00:40:07,557 --> 00:40:08,607 entering markets. 515 00:40:08,607 --> 00:40:15,149 Clio has an extremely established customer base that is very loyal, that has long like lifetime value. 516 00:40:15,149 --> 00:40:17,130 They have a longer lifetime value. 517 00:40:17,130 --> 00:40:18,178 So now, 518 00:40:18,178 --> 00:40:31,000 they have to make the promise that they can actually sell into all of these different, they have to prove that they can sell new products into the customer base, yeah. 519 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,784 yeah, so, and yeah, I completely agree with you that they are very different scenarios. 520 00:40:36,784 --> 00:40:40,917 I Clio has been around, you know, I remember my early days in legal. 521 00:40:40,917 --> 00:40:46,994 We, when we didn't know where our target customers lived, we went to a few ABA tech shows. 522 00:40:46,994 --> 00:40:51,294 mean, I'm talking like 2008 and I remember them, you know, they've been around. 523 00:40:51,294 --> 00:40:56,718 Um, it's it, but your, your observation on 524 00:40:57,324 --> 00:41:10,365 the number of solutions in the market and the way law firms are buying, I've had similar observations and it's, there is two forces on different sides of the supply demand 525 00:41:10,365 --> 00:41:11,126 equation. 526 00:41:11,126 --> 00:41:16,810 On the supply side, you have this irrational exuberance and there's no way of getting around that it is. 527 00:41:16,810 --> 00:41:18,352 AI is going to be transformative. 528 00:41:18,352 --> 00:41:19,833 There's no doubt about that. 529 00:41:19,833 --> 00:41:26,250 But you know, usually the first company to be successful in a category 530 00:41:26,250 --> 00:41:27,911 isn't the long-term winner. 531 00:41:27,911 --> 00:41:30,362 mean, ask Blackberry, ask Netscape, right? 532 00:41:30,362 --> 00:41:34,995 They paved the way for future generations of firms that get it right. 533 00:41:34,995 --> 00:41:40,658 But we have irrational exuberance on the supply side, inflating the capital markets. 534 00:41:40,658 --> 00:41:54,506 And then on the demand side, you have law firms that have these FOMO induced buying patterns where discipline and efficiency 535 00:41:54,734 --> 00:42:03,714 really are taking a backseat to because they're getting it, you know, at the highest levels in law firm leadership, the XCOM level, they're like, Hey, we got to get a handle 536 00:42:03,714 --> 00:42:04,074 on this. 537 00:42:04,074 --> 00:42:09,004 That Goldman report scared the hell out of everybody with 44 % of legal tasks being automated. 538 00:42:09,004 --> 00:42:11,434 I think that's a gross overestimate by the way. 539 00:42:11,434 --> 00:42:21,614 And I think everybody does now where that number lands long-term, who knows, but it's not 44 % short-term and I don't think it's 44 % midterm. 540 00:42:22,402 --> 00:42:34,380 But yes, there will be a transformation in the space, the odds that Google Ventures and OpenAI, well, Google Ventures led the series C round at Harvey, right? 541 00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:41,195 And they come from outside and they don't have all of the perspective that you described. 542 00:42:41,516 --> 00:42:46,519 Alex Su wrote a really good article about how hard it is to disrupt legal. 543 00:42:46,559 --> 00:42:51,142 And I mean, it is so difficult and there are these 544 00:42:51,406 --> 00:42:55,506 these models, these economic models and law firms are so well entrenched. 545 00:42:55,506 --> 00:42:57,496 You know, that's why the billable hour won't die. 546 00:42:57,496 --> 00:43:00,476 You know, your comments about the AFA is spot on. 547 00:43:00,476 --> 00:43:07,826 It's like telling a room full of millionaires that they're doing it wrong is, a tough proposition. 548 00:43:07,826 --> 00:43:09,554 So, um, yeah. 549 00:43:09,554 --> 00:43:15,907 clients like here's the thing like you can have and you can have like a budget or something like that with a client and they still want to know what the hours reports are 550 00:43:15,907 --> 00:43:25,781 like clients still like the hours they like to know what people did they like to know what work they did on stuff so it's not just like it's not completely that you know law firms 551 00:43:25,781 --> 00:43:34,774 haven't wanted to move clients aren't necessarily prepared to completely abandon that too they're not excited if they get a one line bill that just tells them the number at the end 552 00:43:34,774 --> 00:43:39,156 they want to know how it broke down and didn't meet throughout like guidelines like 553 00:43:39,340 --> 00:43:40,251 Yeah. 554 00:43:40,251 --> 00:43:49,959 So we've got a bunch of people that I do think, I do think there may be a move that Gen.ai puts us more towards figuring out what value pricing actually looks like. 555 00:43:50,060 --> 00:43:52,041 But I still think it's all I agree with you. 556 00:43:52,041 --> 00:43:56,285 It's it's we're a ways off and figuring out how this is all going to change things. 557 00:43:56,285 --> 00:43:57,176 It will change things. 558 00:43:57,176 --> 00:44:01,760 I think you've seen I think you've seen faster change now than you have before. 559 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,328 Like when AI came out in the you know, the beginning with machine learning. 560 00:44:06,328 --> 00:44:09,403 Like it was was a, it was a, it's been a longer road. 561 00:44:09,403 --> 00:44:14,875 think this is, I think this has caught, captured people's attention and, and interest. 562 00:44:14,875 --> 00:44:21,832 I, so you will see movement, but yeah, how fast and how transformative off the bat, not as sure. 563 00:44:21,836 --> 00:44:23,208 Yeah, it is. 564 00:44:23,208 --> 00:44:26,911 It is a bit of a guessing game at this point. 565 00:44:27,333 --> 00:44:28,834 Well, this has been so fun. 566 00:44:28,834 --> 00:44:32,880 There was a whole, there was a whole section of the things we were going to talk about that we didn't get to. 567 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:38,285 I would love to have you back on at some point and explore this more. 568 00:44:38,346 --> 00:44:41,590 So are you going to be at TLTF in a couple of weeks? 569 00:44:41,590 --> 00:44:43,394 will be at CLOTF. 570 00:44:43,394 --> 00:44:43,996 love going there. 571 00:44:43,996 --> 00:44:47,032 Zach's group has a, they've done an amazing conference. 572 00:44:47,032 --> 00:44:47,532 They do. 573 00:44:47,532 --> 00:44:47,882 Yeah. 574 00:44:47,882 --> 00:44:51,374 I last year was my first year, but, um, we're back again this year. 575 00:44:51,374 --> 00:44:52,985 We're actually going to be pitching. 576 00:44:52,985 --> 00:44:57,847 So, um, yeah, we're a new TLTF portfolio company. 577 00:44:57,847 --> 00:45:12,953 Um, yeah, yeah, we're, we're, we are in a unique position where, uh, our, our growth is we've, we had a lot of wind at our back that was really, um, a result of, have an amazing 578 00:45:12,953 --> 00:45:15,598 product, but we, got, 579 00:45:15,598 --> 00:45:17,798 We've been fortunate with timing. 580 00:45:17,798 --> 00:45:23,878 know, law firms are really just moving now in the last two, three years in earnest to the cloud. 581 00:45:23,878 --> 00:45:25,818 Big law, right? 582 00:45:25,898 --> 00:45:29,718 So, 365 first step is exchange. 583 00:45:29,718 --> 00:45:35,018 You get messaging up there and now they're starting to get to those ancillary workloads like SharePoint and moving them up. 584 00:45:35,018 --> 00:45:36,818 And that's where our product lives. 585 00:45:36,818 --> 00:45:42,098 So firms are having to rethink whatever, whatever they had on prem, like it's not going to run in the cloud. 586 00:45:42,098 --> 00:45:43,748 It's a different development model. 587 00:45:43,748 --> 00:45:45,250 You can move your content. 588 00:45:45,250 --> 00:45:48,593 but your customizations have to be completely re-imagined. 589 00:45:48,593 --> 00:45:51,115 So that's put a lot of wind at our back. 590 00:45:51,116 --> 00:45:57,802 We integrate very seamlessly with Teams and Microsoft Teams, which has had an explosion post COVID. 591 00:45:59,784 --> 00:46:08,392 Yeah, I know you guys have Cam and other products that have also, I guess, benefited from those tail winds. 592 00:46:09,823 --> 00:46:22,236 Yeah, it's been a big move and it's like, no one's done and there's so much that needs to be done to help people make the move there and make the most of their data and their 593 00:46:22,236 --> 00:46:24,152 experience and expertise. 594 00:46:24,152 --> 00:46:24,943 Yeah. 595 00:46:24,943 --> 00:46:26,954 Well, this has been such a fun conversation. 596 00:46:26,954 --> 00:46:32,447 I really appreciate you taking the time and I look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks. 597 00:46:33,468 --> 00:46:34,249 All right. 598 00:46:34,249 --> 00:46:35,329 Thank you. 599 00:46:35,329 --> 00:46:35,889 right. 600 00:46:35,889 --> 00:46:36,322 Bye. 00:00:05,023 Haley Altman, how are you this morning? 2 00:00:06,285 --> 00:00:07,802 I'm doing great. 3 00:00:07,802 --> 00:00:13,610 I appreciate you joining me for a few minutes for what I think is going to be a very interesting conversation. 4 00:00:14,852 --> 00:00:30,144 Before we jump into the combo, actually how we got connected, I think we were on a panel and we were riffing on M &A and I think you and I kind of have the same perspective on 5 00:00:30,144 --> 00:00:32,546 where we are with things, but 6 00:00:32,546 --> 00:00:36,347 Before we jump into that, why don't we do an introduction? 7 00:00:36,347 --> 00:00:48,042 So you started, think, a, you were a practicing attorney with Ice Miller, and then you were founder CEO at Doxley, got acquired by Laterra, and you have a really interesting 8 00:00:48,042 --> 00:00:48,671 role now. 9 00:00:48,671 --> 00:00:53,682 So why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and where you do it? 10 00:00:53,682 --> 00:00:58,192 no, I was a &A attorney, also worked in Silicon Valley at Wilson-Sinzini. 11 00:00:58,192 --> 00:01:00,402 So I got really excited about the tech space. 12 00:01:00,402 --> 00:01:07,562 You know, you can't help but be excited when you're in Silicon Valley, working with all these amazing companies, kind of changing the landscape. 13 00:01:07,562 --> 00:01:15,022 I came back to the Midwest where I was from, moved up to partnership and was just trying to manage a lot of deals. 14 00:01:15,022 --> 00:01:20,562 did, you know, when you're in a full service law firm, did venture capital, &A and some credit type deals. 15 00:01:20,562 --> 00:01:22,072 And so was working a lot. 16 00:01:22,072 --> 00:01:28,066 came up with the idea for Doxley, you know, kind of in the middle of the night trying to track down a signature page. 17 00:01:28,467 --> 00:01:36,814 So after I made partner, just, you know, realized, you know, I really thought I had a perspective on how to solve a problem that was facing us. 18 00:01:36,814 --> 00:01:50,115 So partnered with the Venture Studio to launch Doxley and grew the business, raised capital, exited within three years, which is pretty quick turn, and then moved up at 19 00:01:50,115 --> 00:01:51,706 Lutera to run 20 00:01:51,730 --> 00:02:00,632 um, CorpDev and help them, um, lead them through 10 acquisitions in about 18 months, which was quite a run. 21 00:02:00,793 --> 00:02:05,594 And then, um, took a little bit of a break, continued as an advisor to Lutera. 22 00:02:05,594 --> 00:02:15,377 And then when Jenny, I came out, was just excited about the possibility to solve problems that I had wanted to solve while I was leading Doxley and in at Lutera. 23 00:02:15,377 --> 00:02:20,078 And so partnered with, the co-founder Brett Balmer Foundation. 24 00:02:20,271 --> 00:02:24,956 And we built some of Lotteria's new Gen.AI products with Lotteria team. 25 00:02:25,258 --> 00:02:26,000 Interesting. 26 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,586 So what did Doxley do exactly? 27 00:02:28,866 --> 00:02:30,778 Yeah, so DocSafe was transaction management. 28 00:02:30,778 --> 00:02:39,595 So when you have a deal, you typically have a checklist that was living in Word and it'd be a list of all the documents that needed to be drafted, consents that needed to be 29 00:02:39,595 --> 00:02:47,942 obtained, everything you needed to do to complete this transaction because before money changes hands, you need to make sure everything's buttoned up. 30 00:02:47,942 --> 00:02:54,607 Every document is, you know, is finalized, I is dotted, T is crossed and all signature pages obtained. 31 00:02:54,607 --> 00:02:58,222 And so we are that platform that allow people to see 32 00:02:58,222 --> 00:03:00,163 you know, what were the final versions of agreements? 33 00:03:00,163 --> 00:03:02,164 We created all the signature pages. 34 00:03:02,164 --> 00:03:04,145 We packeted everything together. 35 00:03:04,145 --> 00:03:15,070 We basically brought, you know, project management, workflow management to the transaction space and so helped create this category that continues today of transaction management. 36 00:03:15,222 --> 00:03:17,907 Interesting and what year did you start Doxley? 37 00:03:18,122 --> 00:03:19,534 in 2016. 38 00:03:19,534 --> 00:03:19,954 Okay. 39 00:03:19,954 --> 00:03:22,494 So you exited 2019. 40 00:03:23,234 --> 00:03:23,494 All right. 41 00:03:23,494 --> 00:03:25,724 That's yeah, that that's an interesting time. 42 00:03:25,724 --> 00:03:26,034 Yeah. 43 00:03:26,034 --> 00:03:31,354 The timing, cause things got crazy during the Zerp era. 44 00:03:31,354 --> 00:03:43,374 And you know, especially in 2020 when the fed started injecting trillions of dollars of liquidity into the economy and all that capital had to find a home. 45 00:03:43,374 --> 00:03:48,620 And it really drove up valuations because there weren't really 46 00:03:48,620 --> 00:03:58,034 that many productive places, it almost forced investors to be speculative, highly speculative, and drove valuations up a lot. 47 00:03:58,562 --> 00:04:08,764 you started to see even at C rounds, even pre-product rounds where people, there wasn't, you know, it's like you've seen the ebb and flow of how capital moves where for a while 48 00:04:08,764 --> 00:04:15,949 you were seeing a lot of money going in at early stages where you hadn't, you know, products weren't really on the market, product market fit hadn't been proven. 49 00:04:15,949 --> 00:04:17,830 So you started seeing money go early. 50 00:04:17,830 --> 00:04:21,151 Then there was a time period where we actually saw it shrink back. 51 00:04:21,151 --> 00:04:22,642 Like those were really speculative. 52 00:04:22,642 --> 00:04:25,413 Okay, so now we're going to see higher expectations. 53 00:04:25,413 --> 00:04:28,470 But in that timeframe, when there was so much capital, 54 00:04:28,470 --> 00:04:40,941 and people needed to figure out what to do with it, we saw a return to high valuations in earlier rounds without some of that expectation of product market fit that some investors 55 00:04:40,941 --> 00:04:45,745 had become a little bit more used to in terms of deciding to deploy. 56 00:04:45,922 --> 00:04:46,192 Yeah. 57 00:04:46,192 --> 00:04:50,907 Imagine that like needing product market fit before you write a check. 58 00:04:50,907 --> 00:04:54,991 Like that seems like very fundamental requirement. 59 00:04:54,991 --> 00:04:58,774 Um, certainly would be for me to, to write a check. 60 00:04:58,774 --> 00:05:01,076 But so you took a break in there. 61 00:05:01,076 --> 00:05:07,572 It sounds like on the corp dev is that when Peter from clock demiser, was he in that role for a bit? 62 00:05:07,573 --> 00:05:08,853 so was helped. 63 00:05:08,853 --> 00:05:10,625 So Peter was on my team. 64 00:05:11,246 --> 00:05:15,169 was, Clocktomizer was one of the first acquisitions I did for Laterra. 65 00:05:15,309 --> 00:05:29,061 And so then he was on my team and then they had brought in a Chief Corps Dev Officer, Alan, who worked with, and he and Peter worked together on kind of continuing in that 66 00:05:29,061 --> 00:05:29,301 role. 67 00:05:29,301 --> 00:05:35,646 And then I maintained as the strategic advisor on that front as well and on the product side a little bit more. 68 00:05:36,110 --> 00:05:36,790 Gotcha. 69 00:05:36,790 --> 00:05:41,862 So tell me about the role, the role you're in now, because it sounds really interesting. 70 00:05:41,862 --> 00:05:52,757 It sounds like you're almost like an intrapreneur here where you've been able to like create a startup within an existing company, which I imagine has definitely has some 71 00:05:52,757 --> 00:05:53,397 benefits. 72 00:05:53,397 --> 00:05:57,039 I imagine there's probably downside to like with everything, right? 73 00:05:57,039 --> 00:06:05,312 But like you've got, you've got the, the, the resources and the market power and tell me about the role. 74 00:06:05,312 --> 00:06:12,354 Yeah, so that was, you know, that was really, it's been, I give a lot of credit to Lutera for really trying to think outside of the box when Gen.ai came out. 75 00:06:12,354 --> 00:06:13,785 So we're, you know, we're a big company. 76 00:06:13,785 --> 00:06:25,128 have a product set that it had established roadmaps that they had to pivot in order to think about where Gen.ai fit into those core drafting and diligence workflows, know, and 77 00:06:25,128 --> 00:06:27,849 AI product and Cura, how does that need to pivot? 78 00:06:27,849 --> 00:06:29,140 So they needed to take a lot. 79 00:06:29,140 --> 00:06:30,710 They needed to have a really 80 00:06:30,710 --> 00:06:35,033 strategic focus on how they were going to take a look at this new technology. 81 00:06:35,033 --> 00:06:43,870 And I think they made really smart decisions and in bringing it in where it made sense and not trying to pivot entire product lines, like you need to deliver on the things you 82 00:06:43,870 --> 00:06:45,865 promised to customers and think through it. 83 00:06:45,865 --> 00:06:53,077 So while you're thinking through how to address all these big product lines, there's still opportunities to fill gaps. 84 00:06:53,077 --> 00:06:57,710 And a lot of times, you know, in bigger companies, you fill gaps through acquisition, but 85 00:06:57,710 --> 00:07:00,640 You know, with Gen.ai, there was so much going on all at once. 86 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,890 You really needed to think about how could I build something new? 87 00:07:03,890 --> 00:07:11,150 And so I had come to them with an idea that I had wanted to work on in the deal point extraction. 88 00:07:11,150 --> 00:07:16,330 When I had Doxy, one of the last things we did in the platform was we created a closing book. 89 00:07:16,330 --> 00:07:19,980 All the documents in the transaction, putting them all together, indexed. 90 00:07:19,980 --> 00:07:22,130 So everyone had the clear picture of that. 91 00:07:22,130 --> 00:07:26,048 But what I had wanted to do is take it one step further and say, okay, 92 00:07:26,048 --> 00:07:30,602 Once you have that closing book, you have all the documents that show you what a transaction is. 93 00:07:30,602 --> 00:07:34,546 Now, can we take the data points out of those documents and leverage them? 94 00:07:34,546 --> 00:07:43,094 They're super critical, super important and valuable in terms of winning the next deal, understanding what precedent looks like, what market looks like. 95 00:07:43,094 --> 00:07:51,758 And so I've always had wanted to, you know, kind of have a survey at the end of a deal so that you could start to collect these data points. 96 00:07:51,758 --> 00:07:56,298 Um, but with gen AI, we've thought, okay, wait, what if we could automatically collect those? 97 00:07:56,298 --> 00:08:00,278 So I brought the idea to Latera and they were like, what if you built it with us? 98 00:08:00,278 --> 00:08:02,638 And I was like, okay, well, I know who I'd want to build it with. 99 00:08:02,638 --> 00:08:05,958 so Brett Balmer, he, you know, I'll build interaction. 100 00:08:05,958 --> 00:08:09,088 He was the CGO founder of, of foundation. 101 00:08:09,088 --> 00:08:14,588 Like no one understood like databases and complex sets of information like Brett does. 102 00:08:14,588 --> 00:08:17,078 And like, I truly believe he has like a magician. 103 00:08:17,078 --> 00:08:18,998 So I called him and told him what I wanted to do. 104 00:08:18,998 --> 00:08:21,876 And we, put together a pitch for Latera. 105 00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:32,364 And, you know, as the person that's done M &A, I knew that one of the biggest challenges in bringing in technology that you're acquiring is getting the tech stacks to talk to each 106 00:08:32,364 --> 00:08:32,934 other. 107 00:08:32,934 --> 00:08:38,999 Since we both worked at Latera and we both understood the Latera tech stack, we said, what if we do this together? 108 00:08:38,999 --> 00:08:49,642 And what if we build it together so that we can build it into integrations directly into core systems that Latera already has with, you know, bringing in both our 109 00:08:49,642 --> 00:08:52,274 our ability to work as like almost like a small company. 110 00:08:52,274 --> 00:08:53,465 Let us be a startup. 111 00:08:53,465 --> 00:08:55,407 Let us use startup practices. 112 00:08:55,407 --> 00:09:02,132 Let's break from traditional, you know, some of the more like bigger company, like, um, you know, kind of processes. 113 00:09:02,132 --> 00:09:03,313 Let us build this. 114 00:09:03,313 --> 00:09:07,497 We worked with theory and principle to do a lot of the design on the product. 115 00:09:07,497 --> 00:09:14,002 We did a lot of things on our own, and then we worked with a lot of the Latera team to like kind of bring it in. 116 00:09:14,002 --> 00:09:19,404 So we knew that this way we could move faster because we were kind of a startup. 117 00:09:19,404 --> 00:09:26,578 And we are very startup minded individuals and we could work with customers that we knew and trusted and knew and trusted us. 118 00:09:26,578 --> 00:09:28,499 And then we could bring it over to the terrace. 119 00:09:28,499 --> 00:09:32,551 That would be easier for them to bring into, into the product set. 120 00:09:32,551 --> 00:09:36,223 So it was a totally different creative way of working. 121 00:09:36,223 --> 00:09:38,224 It was really, really cool. 122 00:09:38,224 --> 00:09:40,125 Um, I mean, I've loved it. 123 00:09:40,125 --> 00:09:48,810 And so then I've kind of stayed on and helping bring it over, um, and, and work with the team on how it looks from a go-to-market perspective and everything. 124 00:09:48,810 --> 00:09:49,504 So. 125 00:09:49,504 --> 00:09:54,998 It is, it's definitely been a really exciting role in different, different way of doing things. 126 00:09:54,998 --> 00:09:55,308 Yeah. 127 00:09:55,308 --> 00:09:58,181 And that platform is dragon, correct? 128 00:09:58,562 --> 00:09:58,973 Okay. 129 00:09:58,973 --> 00:10:01,856 And then you're also working on another lattice. 130 00:10:01,856 --> 00:10:02,206 Yeah. 131 00:10:02,206 --> 00:10:13,889 So we, when we were presenting them the idea for Dragon, they had been also evaluating what does it look like to be able to take all these databases of information and ask 132 00:10:13,889 --> 00:10:14,800 complex questions. 133 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:15,400 And we agreed. 134 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:23,752 We were like, look, if you can start to access all the information that's in your documents and foundation has access to the experience and we can tap into financial 135 00:10:23,752 --> 00:10:25,713 systems and things like that. 136 00:10:25,713 --> 00:10:30,494 What if we could query across all systems that wants to ask really, truly complex questions? 137 00:10:30,494 --> 00:10:31,254 So. 138 00:10:31,278 --> 00:10:42,978 If I want to know how many &A deals did we do in the last six months that have an earn out and rollover and where we have a realization rate of 95 % because I need to price a new 139 00:10:42,978 --> 00:10:53,108 deal and I want to make sure that this is we were I'm looking for budget numbers that fit in this like and maybe the deal needs to be in the 50 to 100 million dollar range. 140 00:10:53,108 --> 00:10:55,918 So I want to pull all that information together. 141 00:10:55,918 --> 00:10:57,958 You can ask lattice that question. 142 00:10:57,958 --> 00:11:00,226 It'll pull up every deal that you've done. 143 00:11:00,226 --> 00:11:04,750 so you can start to see what the answers are. 144 00:11:04,750 --> 00:11:16,062 And so we wanted to give you a, kind of do a flip on enterprise, on how search works by being able to like really connect people with the information and data, put together all 145 00:11:16,062 --> 00:11:19,301 of the relevancy and start to pair different databases together. 146 00:11:19,301 --> 00:11:25,926 So really want to be able to ask complex questions of databases that don't always talk to each other. 147 00:11:26,478 --> 00:11:36,337 And is this really, are you laying the foundation for firms to create an AFA offering in the transaction space? 148 00:11:36,884 --> 00:11:40,816 If they, mean, they can start to pull all the information together. 149 00:11:40,816 --> 00:11:42,636 And so it should be able to give them. 150 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:47,878 I mean, I think if you talk to people that are in the transaction space, you know, everyone's like, we don't do AFAs. 151 00:11:47,878 --> 00:11:50,420 And I was like, do you do a budget? 152 00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:54,061 Like you give a client, a client calls you and says, what is this going to cost? 153 00:11:54,061 --> 00:11:56,876 And you're like about $250,000. 154 00:11:56,876 --> 00:12:00,329 Okay, well the client heard it costs no more than $250,000. 155 00:12:00,329 --> 00:12:02,371 So they've set a budget. 156 00:12:02,371 --> 00:12:10,058 So it's on the AFA because if you go under, they are only getting billed for whatever is under, but in their mind, you are not going over. 157 00:12:10,058 --> 00:12:12,160 So that budget is more of a cap. 158 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:18,355 So you better be communicating them with throughout the transaction if the cap, if you're going to exceed that and explain why. 159 00:12:18,355 --> 00:12:20,647 And sometimes that, you you take on more work. 160 00:12:20,647 --> 00:12:22,199 They want you to review more diligence. 161 00:12:22,199 --> 00:12:23,490 They want you to... 162 00:12:23,490 --> 00:12:25,100 the deal got more complicated. 163 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:29,512 The earn out structure became really, really complex. 164 00:12:29,512 --> 00:12:34,373 So there are always reasons why that initial budget number may not end up being the end number. 165 00:12:34,373 --> 00:12:37,294 But once you've said it, the client has heard it. 166 00:12:37,294 --> 00:12:43,636 And so to some extent, you've given yourself an AFA just with no downside protection. 167 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:48,400 So it's like, if you're really efficient and you do it for 200, you're only getting 200. 168 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,330 In an AFA, you would have gotten 250. 169 00:12:52,312 --> 00:13:07,733 We're good at hedging, so yeah, so I would love to be in a position where people could set a price that's tied more to the value that they feel like they're driving for the deal and 170 00:13:07,733 --> 00:13:14,558 then benefit from using the technology that's going to make them more efficient and deliver higher value client work. 171 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:19,772 so I think more data allows you to do that more confidently. 172 00:13:19,928 --> 00:13:20,238 Yeah. 173 00:13:20,238 --> 00:13:24,182 I mean, this is an issue that we were prior to info dash. 174 00:13:24,182 --> 00:13:35,732 were a company called Acrowire and we were consultants and we dealt with clients trying to push us down the not, we call it not to exceed, you know, the not to exceed path. 175 00:13:35,732 --> 00:13:40,256 And, it's a losing proposition for the vendor for the reasons that you just stated. 176 00:13:40,256 --> 00:13:47,662 It's like, okay, I have, I have to take risk in case, you know, costs do run. 177 00:13:47,766 --> 00:13:50,278 run over budget, but I've got no upside. 178 00:13:50,278 --> 00:13:52,469 So I've only got downside in that equation. 179 00:13:52,469 --> 00:14:00,014 Um, so yeah, that is an issue we've grappled with and you're exactly right about once you throw a number out there. 180 00:14:00,014 --> 00:14:10,531 So how, how we contend with that is we, know, there's only so much like pre-sales engineering that you can do on a product deal, right? 181 00:14:10,531 --> 00:14:13,824 Like you come in, you do, we do a gap analysis. 182 00:14:13,824 --> 00:14:17,772 We, we ask the client all the things, all the right questions. 183 00:14:17,772 --> 00:14:25,724 And we get back, um, we get back data, we create assumptions, acceptance criteria, and then the project kicks off. 184 00:14:25,724 --> 00:14:35,417 And then we have an engineering phase where there's a lot of validation that happens and all the time there will be a new stakeholder that pops up and go, here's Joe from 185 00:14:35,417 --> 00:14:35,927 marketing. 186 00:14:35,927 --> 00:14:36,157 Yeah. 187 00:14:36,157 --> 00:14:37,718 Joe wants to do that differently. 188 00:14:37,718 --> 00:14:43,910 Like, okay, Joe can have anything he wants, but we have to create a change order to accommodate for that. 189 00:14:44,030 --> 00:14:45,356 And you know, 190 00:14:45,356 --> 00:14:56,612 Sometimes those are tough conversations, but the reality is you can't put all that risk on the vendor side and just say like fixed price requires fixed scope. 191 00:14:56,612 --> 00:15:00,694 If scope changes, then price has to change. 192 00:15:00,694 --> 00:15:10,320 So yeah, that is, you know, something we've struggled with for, for many years and come up with, um, a pretty good process to manage it. 193 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:15,138 But like, what are opportunities I can see in 194 00:15:15,138 --> 00:15:19,780 doing what you're doing with this startup inside an existing company. 195 00:15:20,942 --> 00:15:22,724 What are there? 196 00:15:22,724 --> 00:15:25,035 Were are there challenges or things that are different? 197 00:15:25,035 --> 00:15:29,068 Like I would imagine, yeah, you've got the resources. 198 00:15:30,129 --> 00:15:35,273 Is there the same like when I think of startup, I think of aggressive risk taking right? 199 00:15:35,273 --> 00:15:36,714 Like is there? 200 00:15:37,195 --> 00:15:40,777 Do they have to pull the reins on that a little bit like? 201 00:15:41,478 --> 00:15:42,368 Yeah. 202 00:15:42,578 --> 00:15:46,398 think the one difference here is that we are very known quantities. 203 00:15:46,398 --> 00:15:47,518 We knew the business. 204 00:15:47,518 --> 00:15:50,348 and I both, I mean, my company was acquired in 2019. 205 00:15:50,348 --> 00:15:54,346 We started this in 2023, working with them to do this. 206 00:15:54,346 --> 00:15:59,709 And so, you know, both of us have run companies before, both of us have been in the litera business. 207 00:15:59,709 --> 00:16:01,910 We, you know, we knew the people we were working for. 208 00:16:01,910 --> 00:16:04,671 We knew the products that we were integrating into. 209 00:16:04,671 --> 00:16:14,776 And so like we were able to really clearly identify scope, but because we'd also been, you know, founders and done this, we, actually knew we needed to be really tight on what the 210 00:16:14,776 --> 00:16:19,238 scope was that we were willing, that we needed to deliver in order to get them started. 211 00:16:19,238 --> 00:16:20,246 And I think. 212 00:16:20,246 --> 00:16:27,149 I think that is that comes from a lot of like trust and communication to say, okay, this is where this can go. 213 00:16:27,149 --> 00:16:28,739 Like similar to other companies. 214 00:16:28,739 --> 00:16:31,781 When you have a startup, you always should understand where you can go. 215 00:16:31,781 --> 00:16:33,141 What is this going to do? 216 00:16:33,141 --> 00:16:34,672 What am I building towards? 217 00:16:34,672 --> 00:16:37,513 But with an aggressive focus on what am I actually delivering? 218 00:16:37,513 --> 00:16:48,478 And so I think we, because we've done this before and Retson in a number of times, like he knew exactly what we were like, we are committing to these things. 219 00:16:48,478 --> 00:16:49,666 And I think that. 220 00:16:49,666 --> 00:16:56,511 I think that helps everyone involved because if you're very clear and we had very detailed like this is what we're going to do. 221 00:16:56,511 --> 00:16:58,112 This is how we're going to do it. 222 00:16:58,112 --> 00:17:08,179 Like it was able we were able to all agree on it and you know, doesn't hurt that like a number of people on every side of the deal or lawyers like some lawyers I know how to deal 223 00:17:08,179 --> 00:17:14,563 terms but might as well be a lawyer at this point to some extent and so we were able to literally back out like this is what we're going to do. 224 00:17:14,563 --> 00:17:15,884 These are the exact features. 225 00:17:15,884 --> 00:17:17,185 This is what it's going to look like. 226 00:17:17,185 --> 00:17:18,506 This is how we're going to do it. 227 00:17:18,506 --> 00:17:19,340 This is 228 00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:21,760 This is how everything kind of comes together. 229 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:29,518 Um, because it was just, um, I think also because we all knew each other, we didn't want there to be any sort of issues. 230 00:17:29,518 --> 00:17:32,740 wanted to say, this is what we were delivering and this is how we're going to do it. 231 00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:36,062 And so that sort of stuff works really well. 232 00:17:36,062 --> 00:17:43,888 Now, you know, there's like on a different side of it, you know, it's like, everyone has their own ideas of what happens with something once it's kind of done and moves to the 233 00:17:43,888 --> 00:17:46,414 next stage and how you would handle things or. 234 00:17:46,414 --> 00:17:52,294 how I would have chosen to do something if I was a startup CEO versus kind of helping, just helping. 235 00:17:52,294 --> 00:17:57,034 So there's always going to be things that I would say I would do this differently or I would do it slightly differently. 236 00:17:57,034 --> 00:18:01,814 And they would be like, okay, but here's why and here's how it fits into the bigger things they have going on. 237 00:18:01,814 --> 00:18:06,334 And so it's like, we all have our own vision of how certain things go. 238 00:18:06,334 --> 00:18:11,614 Fortunately, we've been very aligned on that, but there's always gonna be those moments of like, why would you do this? 239 00:18:11,614 --> 00:18:13,474 And they're like, we would do this. 240 00:18:13,734 --> 00:18:16,254 But it was funny, 241 00:18:16,334 --> 00:18:18,144 Dragon was actually supposed to be a code name. 242 00:18:18,144 --> 00:18:18,904 It was supposed to come up. 243 00:18:18,904 --> 00:18:22,524 There was supposed to be a new name at some point, but everyone just started calling it that. 244 00:18:22,524 --> 00:18:24,794 And so then all of a sudden it was Dragon. 245 00:18:24,794 --> 00:18:29,964 And so was like, that may have been one where it was like, that was just an idea that I had, cause I'm a deal attorney. 246 00:18:29,964 --> 00:18:31,154 And so it was a deal database. 247 00:18:31,154 --> 00:18:33,694 I called it Dragon as a code name, Project Dragon. 248 00:18:33,694 --> 00:18:36,954 And then it ended up turning into something totally different. 249 00:18:36,954 --> 00:18:39,664 So, you you, you find your way through it. 250 00:18:39,664 --> 00:18:45,806 Um, and it ends up in places that maybe you didn't think it would in the start, but it's been, was honestly, it's been. 251 00:18:45,806 --> 00:18:47,027 It's been really great. 252 00:18:47,074 --> 00:18:49,435 Yeah, I mean you guys are uniquely positioned. 253 00:18:49,435 --> 00:18:50,696 mean the mod. 254 00:18:50,696 --> 00:18:59,621 I'm curious if you think this model will be replicated again, maybe inside Lutera and other places. 255 00:18:59,621 --> 00:19:06,345 You guys have a really unique ingredients here and position, so I don't know how replicatable. 256 00:19:06,345 --> 00:19:07,816 are your thoughts on that? 257 00:19:07,958 --> 00:19:10,229 You know, I would love to see it be replicated. 258 00:19:10,229 --> 00:19:16,693 I've always had, you know, I have different ideas, like whether they would be ones I would do with Latera again, with or someone else. 259 00:19:16,693 --> 00:19:24,837 It'd be it is an interesting way to do things because it, it allows a bigger company to take a risk on doing something. 260 00:19:24,837 --> 00:19:27,898 And but with a little bit more control. 261 00:19:27,898 --> 00:19:31,042 And I, you know, it's like, look, I've seen 262 00:19:31,042 --> 00:19:32,142 I've seen acquisitions work. 263 00:19:32,142 --> 00:19:33,893 I've seen acquisitions not go as well. 264 00:19:33,893 --> 00:19:40,296 I've seen like promising companies not, you know, meet their full potential because, you know, they had to pivot in what they did. 265 00:19:40,296 --> 00:19:51,290 And so it's like to see something get to be built, to see new things enter the market and then have an immediate home and the immediate opportunity to grow. 266 00:19:51,290 --> 00:19:53,071 It's really cool. 267 00:19:53,912 --> 00:19:55,942 So I actually really like it. 268 00:19:55,942 --> 00:19:59,354 I would love to do, you know, I'd love to do it again. 269 00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:06,713 You know, it's a really interesting way to bring new technology to market. 270 00:20:06,713 --> 00:20:09,985 But it's like, you kind of need the right ingredients. 271 00:20:09,985 --> 00:20:12,213 Like could we replicate it again? 272 00:20:12,213 --> 00:20:13,066 I don't know. 273 00:20:13,066 --> 00:20:21,300 Like, you know, you need people that understand the underlying business that you're building for, the product sets that fill their gaps. 274 00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:25,201 And then you have to have the trust of the company that you can build it for them. 275 00:20:26,062 --> 00:20:30,882 I think there are people in the market that could have, that could put those ingredients together. 276 00:20:31,522 --> 00:20:32,522 So we'll see. 277 00:20:32,522 --> 00:20:33,752 I would love to see it again. 278 00:20:33,752 --> 00:20:35,807 It was, I think it's really cool. 279 00:20:35,807 --> 00:20:36,947 it is really cool. 280 00:20:36,947 --> 00:20:49,112 And you know, I, the, the corporate skillset is very, very, very different than the startup founder skillset, like night and day different. 281 00:20:49,733 --> 00:20:51,864 my wife and I own five gyms here in St. 282 00:20:51,864 --> 00:20:56,416 Louis and we're part of a franchise brand and she runs that business. 283 00:20:56,416 --> 00:21:01,858 run info dash, but I kind of helped her get going and got real involved with the brand for. 284 00:21:02,038 --> 00:21:11,964 a hot minute and I saw and started a franchisee association and we were, you know, our charter was really kind of help franchisees that were struggling. 285 00:21:12,205 --> 00:21:17,569 And I saw some people who were very, very successful. 286 00:21:17,569 --> 00:21:28,706 One of them was a CEO of a fortune 500 company in the corporate world who jumped in to entrepreneurship and really, really struggled. 287 00:21:28,706 --> 00:21:31,658 In fact, I don't know if he's still involved. 288 00:21:31,717 --> 00:21:37,972 And, you know, he had the most impressive corporate legal resume that you could imagine. 289 00:21:37,972 --> 00:21:44,036 But, you know, when you're when you're a founder and an entrepreneur, you've got very limited resources. 290 00:21:44,036 --> 00:21:51,992 Typically, I think you guys are an exception here, but someone jumping out on their own and starting a new business, very limited resources. 291 00:21:51,992 --> 00:21:55,034 The risk reward equation is very different. 292 00:21:55,034 --> 00:22:00,758 Like when you sign like in the gyms, for example, you sign a 10 year lease with a personal guarantee. 293 00:22:01,004 --> 00:22:04,536 or you go get an SBA loan and they put a lien on your house. 294 00:22:04,536 --> 00:22:06,777 Like that doesn't happen in the corporate world, right? 295 00:22:06,777 --> 00:22:09,258 If things don't work out, you go find another job. 296 00:22:09,258 --> 00:22:21,583 It's not, you lose everything and that creates a different dynamic that you, and lens that you use on decision-making and you have to be willing to push and take risks or cause it's 297 00:22:21,583 --> 00:22:26,205 impossible to get upside without taking risk. 298 00:22:26,205 --> 00:22:28,886 So yeah, you guys are unique. 299 00:22:29,004 --> 00:22:32,746 Yeah, and it is, you know, it's one of those things like it's a different position. 300 00:22:32,746 --> 00:22:40,850 You're working at different, like, I mean, I just remember starting Doxley and I had friends and family that invested in High Alpha, which was the venture studio I worked 301 00:22:40,850 --> 00:22:41,140 with. 302 00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:42,801 respected every person was in there. 303 00:22:42,801 --> 00:22:44,352 So it's a different set of risks. 304 00:22:44,352 --> 00:22:51,685 Like you've got a lot of people counting on you, have employees counting on you you're like, my gosh, every day I've got to think about how I'm going to take the next step. 305 00:22:51,685 --> 00:22:53,400 You know, in this instance, like, 306 00:22:53,400 --> 00:23:02,097 We're building something for a company that we care about, that we've spent a lot of time with, that we have a vested interest in making successful. 307 00:23:02,097 --> 00:23:07,521 And so it's again, it's just like, what are the things we need to do? 308 00:23:07,521 --> 00:23:09,883 And I think that's why sometimes it works. 309 00:23:09,883 --> 00:23:18,080 So if you're really passionate about what you're doing, what you're building, and I think you see that, people that leave from the corporate side that are like, I've been very 310 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:19,451 successful in my job. 311 00:23:19,451 --> 00:23:22,613 I have ideas of how things are broken and I'm going to fix them. 312 00:23:22,934 --> 00:23:32,517 always bring the same level of passion to being like a startup founder and whether that's an entrepreneur or just a true startup, like it's a lot of work. 313 00:23:32,517 --> 00:23:33,547 It's a lot of risk. 314 00:23:33,547 --> 00:23:38,399 It's a lot of, of, have to do a lot of the things myself. 315 00:23:38,399 --> 00:23:45,901 And if you are not a CEO that's willing to roll up your sleeves, take out the recycling, you know, take a customer support call. 316 00:23:45,901 --> 00:23:48,542 used to take Doxley support calls at like two in the morning. 317 00:23:48,542 --> 00:23:50,432 Like if my team was asleep, 318 00:23:50,432 --> 00:23:55,126 I was answering the phone because in the RVB of engineering, like the two of us would be like 3 a.m. 319 00:23:55,126 --> 00:24:01,231 talking and making sure a signature page got out because when you're in those early days, like every moment counts. 320 00:24:01,231 --> 00:24:13,422 And if, if you've come from an area where you've got a huge team underneath you making that transition to I own everything, I have to do everything, this risk lands with me. 321 00:24:13,422 --> 00:24:15,464 It's a, it's a total different mindset. 322 00:24:15,464 --> 00:24:18,552 And we, we brought the same. 323 00:24:18,552 --> 00:24:23,927 care and concern that we had for our individual startups to what we were doing with Dragon and Lattice. 324 00:24:23,927 --> 00:24:31,594 so like Brett and I would be on late night calls, working on the product, figuring something out, talking through what we needed to do on this. 325 00:24:31,594 --> 00:24:34,676 Did we need to pivot the product slightly because of some feedback? 326 00:24:34,676 --> 00:24:40,402 Like we took every bit of it as serious as if we had our own startup that we were building. 327 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,461 You know, and on the flip side is true as well. 328 00:24:43,461 --> 00:24:43,741 Right. 329 00:24:43,741 --> 00:24:56,715 So, you know, people could be very successful in the corporate side and, and, and not so on the founder side, but founders, they get acquired and have earn outs struggle. 330 00:24:56,735 --> 00:24:58,136 How many times have you seen it? 331 00:24:58,136 --> 00:24:58,466 Right. 332 00:24:58,466 --> 00:25:05,068 Like where a founder, you know, a startup gets acquired, founder has an earn out and it is a disaster. 333 00:25:05,068 --> 00:25:10,597 because you're now working inside of a big organization with constraints and processes and things. 334 00:25:10,597 --> 00:25:12,760 And they're like, what do mean I can't do that? 335 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,174 Well, yeah, cause we have process. 336 00:25:15,388 --> 00:25:15,768 Right. 337 00:25:15,768 --> 00:25:25,937 And it is, it is a struggle when you, when you take on every role to the down to the likes of work calls, having someone want to change how you do something because you need to 338 00:25:25,937 --> 00:25:26,677 scale. 339 00:25:26,677 --> 00:25:28,859 It's a hard thing to let go of. 340 00:25:28,859 --> 00:25:33,183 And it's a hard thing to let go of in some instances, the creative control. 341 00:25:33,183 --> 00:25:39,408 Like I, you know, I, you know, build Doxley, I love Doxley, but we are combining Doxley and Workshare Transact. 342 00:25:39,408 --> 00:25:41,780 And, you know, we needed to. 343 00:25:41,780 --> 00:25:43,010 make decisions. 344 00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:44,421 so ego had to come out of it. 345 00:25:44,421 --> 00:25:54,944 Like I knew from the beginning, most likely, even though I love the name Doxley, like that was most likely not going to fit in Laterra's world of compare, create, and very verb 346 00:25:54,944 --> 00:25:55,554 driven things. 347 00:25:55,554 --> 00:25:57,334 So Transact made a lot of sense. 348 00:25:57,334 --> 00:25:58,885 And they asked me, they're like, Are you okay with this? 349 00:25:58,885 --> 00:26:00,335 Do you want us to come up with a new name? 350 00:26:00,335 --> 00:26:01,726 So it's neither of the two products. 351 00:26:01,726 --> 00:26:05,597 And was like, why the name Transact fits perfectly. 352 00:26:05,597 --> 00:26:09,602 Like, I can let go of my ego in what I built. 353 00:26:09,602 --> 00:26:14,245 You want to change some of the design as long as that's going to drive the value to the customers. 354 00:26:14,245 --> 00:26:15,586 Fine. 355 00:26:15,586 --> 00:26:26,012 you have to like, there's a lot of ego that goes into building a startup and that you have to like, put so much of your heart and soul in it becomes, I joked when I sold Doxley, the 356 00:26:26,012 --> 00:26:28,352 code name for the project was Delano. 357 00:26:28,633 --> 00:26:32,235 Like, they were doing, Latara was doing, or HG was doing president's names. 358 00:26:32,235 --> 00:26:35,197 so Delano is for Franklin Delano Roosevelt. 359 00:26:35,197 --> 00:26:37,710 My kids names are Kennedy and Madison. 360 00:26:37,710 --> 00:26:41,950 So it was like a perfect, like it was just perfect. 361 00:26:41,970 --> 00:26:44,170 My code name for selling Doxley was Delano. 362 00:26:44,170 --> 00:26:46,070 It was like, it was like another child. 363 00:26:46,070 --> 00:26:47,330 And that's what it feels like. 364 00:26:47,330 --> 00:26:55,440 You've built this thing, you put every ounce of your, you've not slept, you've stressed, you've, you know, you've put so much into it. 365 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,620 And so you're, you have to give that up. 366 00:26:58,620 --> 00:27:02,030 But when you're in a big company, ego has to come out of it. 367 00:27:02,030 --> 00:27:03,910 Not everything I built was going to be perfect. 368 00:27:03,910 --> 00:27:06,860 Not everything we did, not every choice we made was the right one. 369 00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:13,146 And we needed to optimize for what was going to fit into Laterra, what was going to fit in bringing the products together. 370 00:27:13,146 --> 00:27:23,205 And so you, you have to be able to take your personal sense of what it is out there and figure out what does working in the bigger, broader good look like. 371 00:27:23,205 --> 00:27:27,949 And it is, it is not a transition that every startup founder can do. 372 00:27:27,949 --> 00:27:33,870 And that may be the benefit of being a law firm partner and having to take your ego out of a lot of things. 373 00:27:33,870 --> 00:27:39,070 and then going into startup and having to learn and be creative and then going back. 374 00:27:39,070 --> 00:27:46,290 it's like I've been in the firm world for a long time and then I had been in startup. 375 00:27:46,290 --> 00:27:54,322 So I think I was able to go back and understand like there is a difference in terms of what we're doing and what we're going to accomplish. 376 00:27:54,690 --> 00:27:58,293 Yeah, I've been a, um, I've been an entrepreneur for 32 years. 377 00:27:58,293 --> 00:28:03,116 I've been an operator for 22 of those, that 10 year Delta. 378 00:28:03,116 --> 00:28:07,118 spent a little bit of time at Microsoft and bank of America. 379 00:28:07,299 --> 00:28:11,011 And man, I learned that was such a good learning experience for me. 380 00:28:11,011 --> 00:28:22,329 And if we ever do eventually get acquired, I understand the corporate world and how different it is and will be much better prepared than, you know, your typical 20 something 381 00:28:22,329 --> 00:28:23,810 startup founder who 382 00:28:23,810 --> 00:28:31,293 Maybe spent one or two years practicing at a law firm and jumped out and started and created a startup. 383 00:28:31,313 --> 00:28:35,375 But, um, like, let's talk a little bit about valuations. 384 00:28:35,375 --> 00:28:50,675 Um, this is such an interesting topic and you know, I a lot, follow the space closely and, um, not even before I created a startup that could potentially be an and a target one day. 385 00:28:50,675 --> 00:28:52,512 It's just, I find it fascinating. 386 00:28:52,830 --> 00:29:05,560 And, know, during the ZERP era, the zero interest rate period, they call it, know, valuations got, got sky high and there was this, this growth at all costs mentality. 387 00:29:05,781 --> 00:29:13,427 And what that led to was very low go-to-market efficiency, very high customer acquisition costs. 388 00:29:13,647 --> 00:29:16,470 And, you know, LTV ratios were cacked. 389 00:29:16,470 --> 00:29:19,953 LTV ratios were out of whack. 390 00:29:19,953 --> 00:29:21,934 And, and then the pendulum. 391 00:29:21,934 --> 00:29:24,114 started to swing back, right? 392 00:29:24,114 --> 00:29:32,454 So inflation, um, tightening, you know, fed tightening, reducing quantitative easing, raising of interest rates. 393 00:29:32,454 --> 00:29:42,684 And then all of a sudden there became this, what I think was a disproportionate focus on profit and like, yes, profit is good, but when you're, when you're building a startup, 394 00:29:42,684 --> 00:29:51,572 like our, our goal and info dash is, we want, um, cashflow neutral growth. 395 00:29:51,596 --> 00:29:52,207 Right? 396 00:29:52,207 --> 00:29:56,079 So we're, we're, you know, we do not want to position ourselves. 397 00:29:56,079 --> 00:29:57,060 We're already profitable. 398 00:29:57,060 --> 00:29:58,646 We're three years in. 399 00:29:58,646 --> 00:30:04,995 Um, and we want to maintain that, but growth is worth significantly more than profit on an exit. 400 00:30:04,995 --> 00:30:05,736 Right? 401 00:30:05,736 --> 00:30:16,423 You could be like, if you've ever met modeled out, you probably have where, you know, the rule of 40 where in different scenarios, I had AI do it for me. 402 00:30:16,423 --> 00:30:21,294 I'm not sure how accurate it was, but the least, the, the, the longest break even 403 00:30:21,294 --> 00:30:26,669 period for an acquirer is 40 % profit, 0 % growth, right? 404 00:30:26,669 --> 00:30:30,862 That's the longest, that's longest path to, break even. 405 00:30:30,862 --> 00:30:43,183 Surprisingly, I thought it would be skewed much higher in the growth and a no profit, but it's actually almost like a bell shaped curve and, a healthy mix of both is, is really 406 00:30:43,183 --> 00:30:49,198 gets you there quickest, but it's incredible when I'm seeing these, these valuations, um, 407 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,051 You know, Harvey's a notable example. 408 00:30:51,051 --> 00:30:56,440 Their series B round, I think they were 715 million in about a year ago. 409 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:05,863 And then, um, their series C with 30 million in revenue, the valuation was 1.5 billion. 410 00:31:05,863 --> 00:31:08,184 So that's 50 X revenue. 411 00:31:08,184 --> 00:31:16,050 And I'm thinking to myself, you know, all right, what, what has to happen for the, for those investors? 412 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,411 to have a, an appropriate level of return. 413 00:31:19,411 --> 00:31:23,813 And there's a number of things that are challenging there. 414 00:31:23,813 --> 00:31:25,474 One is the TAM, right? 415 00:31:25,474 --> 00:31:32,177 On the law firm side, there's only about 500 law firms in the world that have more than a hundred attorneys. 416 00:31:32,177 --> 00:31:32,537 Right? 417 00:31:32,537 --> 00:31:38,159 So, and I know that they, they're going to have plenty of work on the inside counsel side. 418 00:31:38,159 --> 00:31:44,602 And I don't know that world well enough to size it, but I know the law firm world really well. 419 00:31:44,602 --> 00:31:45,442 And 420 00:31:45,550 --> 00:31:54,830 You know, so I kinda, I just like threw some assumptions in Claude and said, all right, what would it take to get a break even on that investment? 421 00:31:54,830 --> 00:32:00,580 And it was astounding the things that needed to happen if you were just law firm, which is not the case. 422 00:32:00,580 --> 00:32:04,170 this is take that with a grain of salt, but yeah. 423 00:32:04,170 --> 00:32:07,850 So they would need 75 % market share. 424 00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:14,072 They would need, which would be about 375 of the 500 ish firms. 425 00:32:14,072 --> 00:32:20,083 they would need to generate about $800,000 in revenue per customer. 426 00:32:20,124 --> 00:32:20,544 Right? 427 00:32:20,544 --> 00:32:22,494 So now you got to think about that. 428 00:32:22,494 --> 00:32:32,527 Like, okay, maybe that's possible, very doable on the AmLaw 25 space, not on the NLJ 350 side of that spectrum. 429 00:32:32,827 --> 00:32:40,009 They'd have to have a compound annual growth rate of about 40 % over seven years. 430 00:32:40,349 --> 00:32:42,089 This is just to break even. 431 00:32:42,130 --> 00:32:42,590 Right? 432 00:32:42,590 --> 00:32:44,098 So, and again, I, 433 00:32:44,098 --> 00:32:55,703 This is with a grain of salt because they have a bigger market than what's, but you know, again, uh, venture and funds aren't in the business of breaking even. 434 00:32:55,703 --> 00:32:59,504 So multiply this times 10, right? 435 00:32:59,504 --> 00:33:03,556 And that's where they need to be in order for this investment to make sense. 436 00:33:03,556 --> 00:33:05,187 So like, what is your take? 437 00:33:05,187 --> 00:33:06,077 Clio was another one. 438 00:33:06,077 --> 00:33:11,669 Clio had a massive, um, round, they're much more established than Harvey. 439 00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:13,890 Um, but it was interesting. 440 00:33:13,922 --> 00:33:21,147 think their valuation was three billion, doubling its previous 1.6 valuation in 2021. 441 00:33:21,147 --> 00:33:22,358 How big is the market? 442 00:33:22,358 --> 00:33:23,359 Like, I don't know. 443 00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:24,840 What is your take on where we're at? 444 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:30,493 Cause I feel like we went from the ZERP era growth at all costs driver evaluation. 445 00:33:30,493 --> 00:33:38,099 And it's like that started to the pendulum started to swing in 2022 and then Chat GPT came out and all this AI hype. 446 00:33:38,099 --> 00:33:43,064 it's like the torch got handed to the AI startups and now they're 447 00:33:43,064 --> 00:33:45,068 going crazy with valuations. 448 00:33:45,068 --> 00:33:58,272 Yeah, well, you I mean, okay, look, we saw this once before with contract lifecycle management, where you started to see the 60 acts multiples on valuation in the, you know, 449 00:33:58,272 --> 00:34:00,262 kind of the early ironclad days. 450 00:34:00,262 --> 00:34:11,415 And then you saw like a huge type cycle around that category, this category as a whole has a huge potential, no one has market share, if you could get total market share, the market 451 00:34:11,415 --> 00:34:13,386 is big, and the value is there. 452 00:34:13,386 --> 00:34:15,074 And then what you've seen is 453 00:34:15,074 --> 00:34:25,861 you know, you've seen companies in that space go under or, you know, have to combine and the valuation, whether people are going to end up with the valuations they want on that or 454 00:34:25,861 --> 00:34:33,006 the multiples that they want to, it's still left to be seen because there's still a huge amount of growth opportunity and things like that. 455 00:34:33,006 --> 00:34:36,489 But you started to see these huge valuations. 456 00:34:36,489 --> 00:34:44,174 Then everything started to temper down and everyone was like, okay, wait, this is not the way we are able to really exit. 457 00:34:44,174 --> 00:34:49,714 And so you started to see more, you know, more sensible evaluations, particularly in the legal space. 458 00:34:49,714 --> 00:34:51,234 And then GEN.AI has changed it. 459 00:34:51,234 --> 00:35:01,454 It's, know, it's a new category with, um, you know, new TAM and, you know, people just are not sure all of the different ways that it could touch in all the different ways it will 460 00:35:01,454 --> 00:35:02,734 transform legal work. 461 00:35:02,734 --> 00:35:13,762 And so now you have non-traditional investors who are not necessarily used to a couple of things, law firm sales cycles, um, size of law firm contracts. 462 00:35:13,778 --> 00:35:20,462 and all the security aspects that you need to go through in order for a new technology to enter a space. 463 00:35:20,543 --> 00:35:24,836 So you've got a lot of investors that are excited about the possibility. 464 00:35:24,836 --> 00:35:37,775 They see how the technology, they can understand how legal would be one of the larger impact spaces in with a bigger impact, disproportionate impact on how the, because it's, 465 00:35:37,775 --> 00:35:42,018 it ties to language, ties to reading, ties to documents. 466 00:35:42,018 --> 00:35:48,321 So some of those areas where Gen.ai seems to have a potential bigger impact tie in. 467 00:35:48,321 --> 00:35:54,663 So non-traditional investors are entering the market that don't necessarily understand the full scope of the space. 468 00:35:54,663 --> 00:36:01,546 And so there is a lot of valuations that are higher because they're seeing a lot of opportunity. 469 00:36:01,546 --> 00:36:04,208 The question is, is what is the TrueTam? 470 00:36:04,208 --> 00:36:10,190 Because you're right, law firm market TrueTam is different than 471 00:36:10,190 --> 00:36:22,840 If you're looking at a horizontal venture capital back solution where you can sell across markets and the market and TAM is a lot larger now I would assume that for a Harvey and I 472 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:32,628 would keep them very separate from a Theo because of just the different ways that they look I would assume if you're looking at a Harvey that they are very much looking at a TAM 473 00:36:32,628 --> 00:36:39,894 that is outside of legal probably professional services accounting financial services those areas 474 00:36:40,094 --> 00:36:50,785 probably a mix of things in the diligence and doing the actual diligence work that would actually be traditionally legal work. 475 00:36:50,785 --> 00:36:59,933 So I would imagine that they're going after more areas and that is what's underlying their TAM and what's underlying the investor expectations. 476 00:36:59,933 --> 00:37:05,070 But this means that, and look, they've brought in a great team and they've got a lot of work, but... 477 00:37:05,070 --> 00:37:07,640 They have to deliver on a lot of different fronts. 478 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,870 have to deliver on a law firm market product. 479 00:37:09,870 --> 00:37:12,780 They have to deliver on products that are outside of the law firm market. 480 00:37:12,780 --> 00:37:17,810 They have to deliver on products that may actually start to look like legal services at some point. 481 00:37:17,810 --> 00:37:19,670 That is all those things have to be true. 482 00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:24,480 So there's going to be a lot of expectations on what they can deliver for them to be successful. 483 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,650 And you'll, you'll see that with ones that are kind of broader scope, Gen. 484 00:37:28,650 --> 00:37:29,570 AI. 485 00:37:29,850 --> 00:37:32,690 So I think it's going to be, it'll be interesting to see how it works. 486 00:37:32,690 --> 00:37:34,540 Now that valuation has led. 487 00:37:34,540 --> 00:37:37,982 to a lot of other more like kind of focused Gen. 488 00:37:37,982 --> 00:37:43,436 products, also getting bigger valuations that they are going to have to live up to as well. 489 00:37:44,917 --> 00:37:49,360 And so I get the feeling that we are going to see a lot of down rounds. 490 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,922 A lot of people wanted to enter the market. 491 00:37:51,922 --> 00:37:53,653 They couldn't get in the Harvey investment. 492 00:37:53,653 --> 00:37:56,005 They couldn't get in the Aaliyah investment rounds. 493 00:37:56,005 --> 00:38:03,960 And so they wanted to play with, they started to invest in other players that started to kind of have those like kind of hallmarks of 494 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,391 We are going to enter and disrupt this space and we're going to do it in with this technology. 495 00:38:08,391 --> 00:38:14,593 And you're seeing valuation rounds that are higher than what we would expect based on the TAM that's available. 496 00:38:14,593 --> 00:38:27,467 And so when non-traditional investors don't necessarily have a full sense of the TAM and like, the sales cycles, I think you're going to see money come in at higher valuations and 497 00:38:27,467 --> 00:38:30,598 then the sales are not going to... 498 00:38:30,670 --> 00:38:38,470 the sales velocity is not going to match the amount of money that was put in because law firms still have longer sales cycles. 499 00:38:38,470 --> 00:38:50,330 law firms saw 70 new gen AI companies enter the market and have no capacity to evaluate them in the time or speed that the investors of those companies would expect. 500 00:38:50,330 --> 00:38:57,132 There's too much in the market to truly diligence, pilot, security assess. 501 00:38:57,132 --> 00:39:01,987 So law firms are under extreme amounts of pressure to actually even evaluate technology. 502 00:39:01,987 --> 00:39:13,189 And there's so many new startups and no one knows if those startups are going to make it a year or if they are vaporware or, you know, are they just a pretty front end to GPT? 503 00:39:13,189 --> 00:39:19,306 Are they thin wrappers that don't do much or add much value outside of the core cost of the model? 504 00:39:19,306 --> 00:39:19,970 So. 505 00:39:19,970 --> 00:39:27,452 Law firms can evaluate things at the speed at which it's going to take to move the sales cycles forward for these companies that just got high valuations. 506 00:39:27,452 --> 00:39:32,073 They're burning cash because they hired a lot of expensive engineers and data scientists. 507 00:39:32,073 --> 00:39:36,634 So it's going to be, I think you're going to see a set of down rounds on that area. 508 00:39:37,715 --> 00:39:39,976 I think the Clio is different. 509 00:39:39,976 --> 00:39:42,096 think Clio is an established company. 510 00:39:42,096 --> 00:39:44,077 have a massive customer base. 511 00:39:44,077 --> 00:39:49,302 They moved into the worlds of payments when they kind of cut ties with the Finna pay and law pay. 512 00:39:49,302 --> 00:39:56,904 and they have an entire new set of products that they can sell into a very established, loyal existing customer base. 513 00:39:56,904 --> 00:40:07,557 So I would imagine the Clio valuation is set differently because it is based on, you know, a lot of companies like a Harvey, it's based on the promise of what you can build in 514 00:40:07,557 --> 00:40:08,607 entering markets. 515 00:40:08,607 --> 00:40:15,149 Clio has an extremely established customer base that is very loyal, that has long like lifetime value. 516 00:40:15,149 --> 00:40:17,130 They have a longer lifetime value. 517 00:40:17,130 --> 00:40:18,178 So now, 518 00:40:18,178 --> 00:40:31,000 they have to make the promise that they can actually sell into all of these different, they have to prove that they can sell new products into the customer base, yeah. 519 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,784 yeah, so, and yeah, I completely agree with you that they are very different scenarios. 520 00:40:36,784 --> 00:40:40,917 I Clio has been around, you know, I remember my early days in legal. 521 00:40:40,917 --> 00:40:46,994 We, when we didn't know where our target customers lived, we went to a few ABA tech shows. 522 00:40:46,994 --> 00:40:51,294 mean, I'm talking like 2008 and I remember them, you know, they've been around. 523 00:40:51,294 --> 00:40:56,718 Um, it's it, but your, your observation on 524 00:40:57,324 --> 00:41:10,365 the number of solutions in the market and the way law firms are buying, I've had similar observations and it's, there is two forces on different sides of the supply demand 525 00:41:10,365 --> 00:41:11,126 equation. 526 00:41:11,126 --> 00:41:16,810 On the supply side, you have this irrational exuberance and there's no way of getting around that it is. 527 00:41:16,810 --> 00:41:18,352 AI is going to be transformative. 528 00:41:18,352 --> 00:41:19,833 There's no doubt about that. 529 00:41:19,833 --> 00:41:26,250 But you know, usually the first company to be successful in a category 530 00:41:26,250 --> 00:41:27,911 isn't the long-term winner. 531 00:41:27,911 --> 00:41:30,362 mean, ask Blackberry, ask Netscape, right? 532 00:41:30,362 --> 00:41:34,995 They paved the way for future generations of firms that get it right. 533 00:41:34,995 --> 00:41:40,658 But we have irrational exuberance on the supply side, inflating the capital markets. 534 00:41:40,658 --> 00:41:54,506 And then on the demand side, you have law firms that have these FOMO induced buying patterns where discipline and efficiency 535 00:41:54,734 --> 00:42:03,714 really are taking a backseat to because they're getting it, you know, at the highest levels in law firm leadership, the XCOM level, they're like, Hey, we got to get a handle 536 00:42:03,714 --> 00:42:04,074 on this. 537 00:42:04,074 --> 00:42:09,004 That Goldman report scared the hell out of everybody with 44 % of legal tasks being automated. 538 00:42:09,004 --> 00:42:11,434 I think that's a gross overestimate by the way. 539 00:42:11,434 --> 00:42:21,614 And I think everybody does now where that number lands long-term, who knows, but it's not 44 % short-term and I don't think it's 44 % midterm. 540 00:42:22,402 --> 00:42:34,380 But yes, there will be a transformation in the space, the odds that Google Ventures and OpenAI, well, Google Ventures led the series C round at Harvey, right? 541 00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:41,195 And they come from outside and they don't have all of the perspective that you described. 542 00:42:41,516 --> 00:42:46,519 Alex Su wrote a really good article about how hard it is to disrupt legal. 543 00:42:46,559 --> 00:42:51,142 And I mean, it is so difficult and there are these 544 00:42:51,406 --> 00:42:55,506 these models, these economic models and law firms are so well entrenched. 545 00:42:55,506 --> 00:42:57,496 You know, that's why the billable hour won't die. 546 00:42:57,496 --> 00:43:00,476 You know, your comments about the AFA is spot on. 547 00:43:00,476 --> 00:43:07,826 It's like telling a room full of millionaires that they're doing it wrong is, a tough proposition. 548 00:43:07,826 --> 00:43:09,554 So, um, yeah. 549 00:43:09,554 --> 00:43:15,907 clients like here's the thing like you can have and you can have like a budget or something like that with a client and they still want to know what the hours reports are 550 00:43:15,907 --> 00:43:25,781 like clients still like the hours they like to know what people did they like to know what work they did on stuff so it's not just like it's not completely that you know law firms 551 00:43:25,781 --> 00:43:34,774 haven't wanted to move clients aren't necessarily prepared to completely abandon that too they're not excited if they get a one line bill that just tells them the number at the end 552 00:43:34,774 --> 00:43:39,156 they want to know how it broke down and didn't meet throughout like guidelines like 553 00:43:39,340 --> 00:43:40,251 Yeah. 554 00:43:40,251 --> 00:43:49,959 So we've got a bunch of people that I do think, I do think there may be a move that Gen.ai puts us more towards figuring out what value pricing actually looks like. 555 00:43:50,060 --> 00:43:52,041 But I still think it's all I agree with you. 556 00:43:52,041 --> 00:43:56,285 It's it's we're a ways off and figuring out how this is all going to change things. 557 00:43:56,285 --> 00:43:57,176 It will change things. 558 00:43:57,176 --> 00:44:01,760 I think you've seen I think you've seen faster change now than you have before. 559 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,328 Like when AI came out in the you know, the beginning with machine learning. 560 00:44:06,328 --> 00:44:09,403 Like it was was a, it was a, it's been a longer road. 561 00:44:09,403 --> 00:44:14,875 think this is, I think this has caught, captured people's attention and, and interest. 562 00:44:14,875 --> 00:44:21,832 I, so you will see movement, but yeah, how fast and how transformative off the bat, not as sure. 563 00:44:21,836 --> 00:44:23,208 Yeah, it is. 564 00:44:23,208 --> 00:44:26,911 It is a bit of a guessing game at this point. 565 00:44:27,333 --> 00:44:28,834 Well, this has been so fun. 566 00:44:28,834 --> 00:44:32,880 There was a whole, there was a whole section of the things we were going to talk about that we didn't get to. 567 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:38,285 I would love to have you back on at some point and explore this more. 568 00:44:38,346 --> 00:44:41,590 So are you going to be at TLTF in a couple of weeks? 569 00:44:41,590 --> 00:44:43,394 will be at CLOTF. 570 00:44:43,394 --> 00:44:43,996 love going there. 571 00:44:43,996 --> 00:44:47,032 Zach's group has a, they've done an amazing conference. 572 00:44:47,032 --> 00:44:47,532 They do. 573 00:44:47,532 --> 00:44:47,882 Yeah. 574 00:44:47,882 --> 00:44:51,374 I last year was my first year, but, um, we're back again this year. 575 00:44:51,374 --> 00:44:52,985 We're actually going to be pitching. 576 00:44:52,985 --> 00:44:57,847 So, um, yeah, we're a new TLTF portfolio company. 577 00:44:57,847 --> 00:45:12,953 Um, yeah, yeah, we're, we're, we are in a unique position where, uh, our, our growth is we've, we had a lot of wind at our back that was really, um, a result of, have an amazing 578 00:45:12,953 --> 00:45:15,598 product, but we, got, 579 00:45:15,598 --> 00:45:17,798 We've been fortunate with timing. 580 00:45:17,798 --> 00:45:23,878 know, law firms are really just moving now in the last two, three years in earnest to the cloud. 581 00:45:23,878 --> 00:45:25,818 Big law, right? 582 00:45:25,898 --> 00:45:29,718 So, 365 first step is exchange. 583 00:45:29,718 --> 00:45:35,018 You get messaging up there and now they're starting to get to those ancillary workloads like SharePoint and moving them up. 584 00:45:35,018 --> 00:45:36,818 And that's where our product lives. 585 00:45:36,818 --> 00:45:42,098 So firms are having to rethink whatever, whatever they had on prem, like it's not going to run in the cloud. 586 00:45:42,098 --> 00:45:43,748 It's a different development model. 587 00:45:43,748 --> 00:45:45,250 You can move your content. 588 00:45:45,250 --> 00:45:48,593 but your customizations have to be completely re-imagined. 589 00:45:48,593 --> 00:45:51,115 So that's put a lot of wind at our back. 590 00:45:51,116 --> 00:45:57,802 We integrate very seamlessly with Teams and Microsoft Teams, which has had an explosion post COVID. 591 00:45:59,784 --> 00:46:08,392 Yeah, I know you guys have Cam and other products that have also, I guess, benefited from those tail winds. 592 00:46:09,823 --> 00:46:22,236 Yeah, it's been a big move and it's like, no one's done and there's so much that needs to be done to help people make the move there and make the most of their data and their 593 00:46:22,236 --> 00:46:24,152 experience and expertise. 594 00:46:24,152 --> 00:46:24,943 Yeah. 595 00:46:24,943 --> 00:46:26,954 Well, this has been such a fun conversation. 596 00:46:26,954 --> 00:46:32,447 I really appreciate you taking the time and I look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks. 597 00:46:33,468 --> 00:46:34,249 All right. 598 00:46:34,249 --> 00:46:35,329 Thank you. 599 00:46:35,329 --> 00:46:35,889 right. 600 00:46:35,889 --> 00:46:36,322 Bye. -->