1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,100 Mr. Crushfield, how are you this afternoon? 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:03,270 I'm doing wonderful. 3 00:00:03,270 --> 00:00:04,110 How are you, Ted? 4 00:00:04,740 --> 00:00:05,640 I'm doing great. 5 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:06,660 I'm doing great. 6 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:09,300 We're, uh, we're just digging out of the snow here. 7 00:00:09,690 --> 00:00:14,700 This is, um, late January and I think the whole country had some, some weather, 8 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:17,940 but, uh, you're in sunny Florida, correct? 9 00:00:18,005 --> 00:00:18,810 I, I did. 10 00:00:18,810 --> 00:00:22,200 We dodged, my wife and I decided to test the Snowbirding thing with 11 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,300 the independent advisory work, so we bailed out about a week ago and 12 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:29,370 came down to Lauderdale and it's. 13 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:30,540 Great weather. 14 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:35,460 It was 84 yesterday while everybody was getting pummeled and uh, you know, a 15 00:00:35,460 --> 00:00:37,110 little cooler today, but I'll take it. 16 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:38,970 Good for you man. 17 00:00:38,970 --> 00:00:39,690 Good for you. 18 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,769 Um, well let's, uh, let's, let's get you introduced. 19 00:00:43,769 --> 00:00:47,099 Um, you and I have have bumped into each other throughout the years. 20 00:00:47,099 --> 00:00:49,950 We had a great conversation at TLTF and I was like, man, we gotta get 21 00:00:49,950 --> 00:00:53,460 you on the podcast 'cause you're a wealth of knowledge in this space. 22 00:00:53,460 --> 00:00:57,480 So, um, why don't you tell everybody who you are, what you do, where you do it. 23 00:00:57,885 --> 00:00:58,095 Sure. 24 00:00:58,095 --> 00:00:58,905 So I'm, I'm Ken. 25 00:00:58,905 --> 00:01:01,964 I live in Alexandria, Virginia right now, right outside of dc. 26 00:01:02,324 --> 00:01:04,394 I am an independent advisor. 27 00:01:04,394 --> 00:01:08,804 I work with legal tech startups, uh, helping advise them on product market 28 00:01:08,804 --> 00:01:14,685 fit, so product strategy, market strategy, basically how to, uh, raise money 29 00:01:14,685 --> 00:01:17,085 and then how to scale and make money. 30 00:01:17,414 --> 00:01:18,945 Those are the, the core things I do. 31 00:01:18,945 --> 00:01:22,335 I also work with a few other, you know, uh, larger corporations too. 32 00:01:22,725 --> 00:01:26,445 Uh, but I've been independent since June when I left Walters Klu. 33 00:01:26,990 --> 00:01:33,470 I've been around the market in since 1982, so coming up on 44 years, 34 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,330 um, when I first stumbled into LexiNexis back in Dayton, Ohio as 35 00:01:38,330 --> 00:01:40,039 I was, uh, looking for internships. 36 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,110 So you've been around a while? 37 00:01:42,410 --> 00:01:42,890 Yes. 38 00:01:43,515 --> 00:01:49,244 You've seen a lot of, uh, you've seen a lot of cycles and, um, I've been around, 39 00:01:49,574 --> 00:01:52,485 uh, less than half of that in legal. 40 00:01:52,755 --> 00:01:57,074 Um, I got started in right around the time of the Great Recession, which was 41 00:01:57,074 --> 00:02:01,130 a hell of a time to start working with law firms, but it all worked out, so Wow. 42 00:02:01,149 --> 00:02:01,369 Uh. 43 00:02:02,009 --> 00:02:02,759 Made it through. 44 00:02:03,690 --> 00:02:07,800 Um, well, you and I had a conversation in, in Austin. 45 00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:08,549 Mm-hmm. 46 00:02:08,789 --> 00:02:14,700 And I think we, we shared some common beliefs and, you know, one of the 47 00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:16,230 things that, that we talked about. 48 00:02:17,535 --> 00:02:20,385 Was, you know, as part of this transformation. 49 00:02:20,775 --> 00:02:21,614 I see. 50 00:02:21,795 --> 00:02:25,635 So we have, uh, I think we have 50 4:00 AM law clients to date. 51 00:02:25,635 --> 00:02:29,475 So we, one out of every 4:00 AM law 200 firms use us. 52 00:02:30,045 --> 00:02:35,415 And so we get across, but I've worked with more than half, half the AM law probably. 53 00:02:36,540 --> 00:02:39,030 Approaching three quarters at this point, but Right. 54 00:02:39,239 --> 00:02:43,530 I've seen a good cross-sectional view of inside law firms, how they 55 00:02:43,530 --> 00:02:45,420 operate, what's similar, what's not. 56 00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:51,959 And what I'm seeing now is I'm seeing a kind of a bifurcation of firms 57 00:02:52,019 --> 00:02:59,370 that are kind of going all in and really embracing this opportunity. 58 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:02,399 And some firms that are just stuck. 59 00:03:02,820 --> 00:03:02,910 Mm-hmm. 60 00:03:03,149 --> 00:03:05,070 And the ones that seem stuck. 61 00:03:05,715 --> 00:03:11,084 Seem to be over-indexing on ROI is what it looks like to me. 62 00:03:11,655 --> 00:03:14,745 And I have a theory that I'd love to get your take on. 63 00:03:15,405 --> 00:03:19,515 Um, I think that ROI is a very important concept, right? 64 00:03:19,605 --> 00:03:24,495 Um, they teach us this in business school and investors. 65 00:03:24,930 --> 00:03:29,700 You know, pay close attention to ROI and return on invested capital 66 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:30,930 and, and all these sorts of things. 67 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:41,910 But when you're in a state of disruption over-indexing on ROI and locking down the 68 00:03:41,910 --> 00:03:46,109 pocketbook can be, can set you behind. 69 00:03:46,109 --> 00:03:47,609 And I feel like. 70 00:03:48,329 --> 00:03:49,980 This is what I'd love to get your take on. 71 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:56,489 A lot of the r in ROI return is, is learning some of these firms, 72 00:03:56,519 --> 00:04:01,500 you know, getting out there, trying some things, experimenting, um, 73 00:04:02,459 --> 00:04:08,100 exposing the practice to these new ways of, uh, conducting business. 74 00:04:08,190 --> 00:04:11,940 Um, are you seeing that bifurcation and what is your. 75 00:04:12,990 --> 00:04:16,050 What are, what are your thoughts on, on ROI at this stage in the game? 76 00:04:16,260 --> 00:04:16,469 Yeah. 77 00:04:16,469 --> 00:04:19,529 I think for corporations it makes a lot of sense because better, 78 00:04:19,529 --> 00:04:23,190 faster, cheaper is part of the DNA of of being on a corporation. 79 00:04:23,580 --> 00:04:26,760 Law firms, especially when you're billing by the hour, it's, it's hard 80 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:32,100 to measure ROI, um, because the more effective, the more efficient you are. 81 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:32,790 The. 82 00:04:33,229 --> 00:04:35,719 Less money you might make if you're charging by the hour. 83 00:04:35,719 --> 00:04:40,070 So I view this as a, an issue of competitiveness. 84 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:41,840 How do you stay competitive? 85 00:04:42,140 --> 00:04:45,349 And that, that creates some conundrums that I'm sure we'll talk about a little 86 00:04:45,349 --> 00:04:47,780 later in, in this, uh, in this podcast. 87 00:04:47,780 --> 00:04:51,935 But one of those is, you know, you don't wanna be so far out ahead. 88 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:56,670 Um, you're outside of the herd, but you also don't want to be left behind 89 00:04:56,670 --> 00:05:00,719 and be, you know, left, uh, you know, for the, you don't wanna be the gazelle 90 00:05:00,719 --> 00:05:02,190 that gets, uh, eaten by the lion. 91 00:05:02,430 --> 00:05:06,360 So there is a little bit of this herd mentality where it's really important 92 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,730 to be able to quickly respond. 93 00:05:09,030 --> 00:05:11,670 And one example I I remember hearing was a, um. 94 00:05:12,195 --> 00:05:16,695 Uh, AM 10 firm who was doing a lot of work with machine learning. 95 00:05:16,695 --> 00:05:20,565 They've been doing that for a while, and client asked specifically for a 96 00:05:20,565 --> 00:05:24,015 task to be done that way and the other. 97 00:05:24,750 --> 00:05:29,010 Uh, am law firm that was being evaluated did not have that skillset. 98 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:33,299 So guess who got the business and who didn't and who was calling in to learn 99 00:05:33,299 --> 00:05:35,039 how to do machine learning the next day. 100 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,840 Um, that's the sort of example that I see when I think about ROI. 101 00:05:40,229 --> 00:05:43,799 Um, when you think about you going down a little bit further, maybe into mid 102 00:05:44,580 --> 00:05:50,580 law, I think there are, there, there are some important factors to consider. 103 00:05:51,615 --> 00:05:55,094 Uh, recognizing that you're technology users, law firms should 104 00:05:55,094 --> 00:05:58,844 be technology users as opposed to technology creators in general. 105 00:05:59,265 --> 00:06:03,555 And so from that standpoint, if you have your IT department wanting to go off 106 00:06:03,555 --> 00:06:07,485 and build things that are not necessary, that's not particularly effective. 107 00:06:07,485 --> 00:06:11,205 I think being, uh, prepared to be a fast follower, it is something that is, is an 108 00:06:11,205 --> 00:06:14,055 important part of the DNA of a law firm. 109 00:06:14,055 --> 00:06:16,935 If you're gonna be responsive, especially if you're not one of the largest. 110 00:06:17,925 --> 00:06:19,755 Yeah, well you're speaking my language there. 111 00:06:19,755 --> 00:06:22,035 I talk build versus buy all the time. 112 00:06:22,095 --> 00:06:27,675 In the context of what we do at info dash, which we, we are a legal 113 00:06:27,675 --> 00:06:31,695 intranet and internet provider on the legal intranet side. 114 00:06:31,785 --> 00:06:34,905 We have no competition, um, other than. 115 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,320 Firms wanting to do custom dev. 116 00:06:37,860 --> 00:06:37,950 Mm-hmm. 117 00:06:38,190 --> 00:06:45,210 And I can tell you that nine out of 10 times roughly, this is anecdotal, but 118 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:52,980 I've seen a lot of it in my almost 20 years of helping firms go down this path. 119 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:54,900 It usually ends badly. 120 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:02,220 And where things go sideways is they're able to estimate the initial effort to. 121 00:07:03,030 --> 00:07:06,510 Um, get things up and running a minimum viable product. 122 00:07:06,810 --> 00:07:12,480 Usually not great at that, but like within a, a reasonable margin, 20, 30%. 123 00:07:12,660 --> 00:07:17,505 Sometimes it goes four x I've seen that too, but, um, where, where, 124 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:23,370 but where I think they struggle in evaluating the TCO of doing a 125 00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:26,490 custom project is in the support. 126 00:07:26,940 --> 00:07:31,919 The maintenance, the training, the change management, the enhancements. 127 00:07:32,430 --> 00:07:37,229 And if I can get in front of a firm before they make, before they get pot 128 00:07:37,229 --> 00:07:41,400 committed, I'm usually successful in showing why that doesn't make sense. 129 00:07:42,060 --> 00:07:42,570 Um, but. 130 00:07:43,140 --> 00:07:46,739 Amazingly, and it sounds like you've seen some of that too. 131 00:07:47,130 --> 00:07:52,080 Firms still march down that path all the time, and a lot 132 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,340 of times end up in a ditch. 133 00:07:53,669 --> 00:07:53,969 Right? 134 00:07:54,419 --> 00:07:58,679 I think, I mean, if you're an IT person, you, you want to do things that are 135 00:07:58,679 --> 00:08:03,000 interesting that, uh, advance your resume and advance your experience. 136 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,539 So there is a desire to want to do things yourself, especially 137 00:08:06,539 --> 00:08:07,434 when you look at it and say. 138 00:08:07,950 --> 00:08:11,640 I could do that even though, you know, just like with info dash, if you have 139 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:17,789 54 big wall clients, um, you know, you've done that 54 times for that 140 00:08:17,940 --> 00:08:22,109 segment of the market and you know the support issues, you know, the pitfalls. 141 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,669 Whereas that firm doing it on their own is doing something that's 142 00:08:27,330 --> 00:08:30,840 bespoke to them, not something that's in their core competency. 143 00:08:31,049 --> 00:08:34,409 And while they may be able to do it, it's probably a bit of a distraction, 144 00:08:34,439 --> 00:08:36,120 even if they are successful. 145 00:08:36,870 --> 00:08:37,169 Yeah. 146 00:08:37,169 --> 00:08:39,989 You know, I always go back to what is the highest and best use 147 00:08:39,989 --> 00:08:41,729 of your technology team's time. 148 00:08:41,969 --> 00:08:42,059 Mm-hmm. 149 00:08:42,299 --> 00:08:46,680 I would argue that rebuilding off the shelf tools is near the bottom 150 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:52,410 of that list, and what's at the top of that list are things that you can 151 00:08:52,410 --> 00:08:56,790 do to differentiate, to do something different than your competition. 152 00:08:57,089 --> 00:09:00,900 But rebuilding off the shelf tools, it's never cheaper ever. 153 00:09:00,900 --> 00:09:03,540 I mean, if you're gonna build a like for like. 154 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:07,350 It's just the economics aren't there, right? 155 00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:08,850 It doesn't, it doesn't make sense. 156 00:09:08,850 --> 00:09:12,510 So unless you're trying to do something totally unique, which in the in internet 157 00:09:12,510 --> 00:09:16,950 next rent world, like there's not, the universe is small, it's solved. 158 00:09:16,950 --> 00:09:18,240 We've solved these problems. 159 00:09:18,810 --> 00:09:24,810 Um, but yeah, I still see, I still see firms go down that path and you know, 160 00:09:24,810 --> 00:09:28,620 I always try and flag, Hey, is this the highest and best use of your time? 161 00:09:29,250 --> 00:09:30,780 Your, your tech team's time? 162 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:33,840 And like what happens when people leave because. 163 00:09:34,245 --> 00:09:36,105 It's not just law firms that struggle with this. 164 00:09:36,105 --> 00:09:40,334 I mean, even us as a technology company, keeping things fully 165 00:09:40,334 --> 00:09:46,365 documented, you know, to current state is documentation is always lagging. 166 00:09:46,425 --> 00:09:46,605 Right. 167 00:09:47,295 --> 00:09:52,214 It's a, it's a juggling act with resources as to how much you allocate towards 168 00:09:52,214 --> 00:09:54,615 what, but law firms really struggle. 169 00:09:54,615 --> 00:09:57,915 And then somebody key leaves and, you know, the, the firm gets left holding 170 00:09:57,915 --> 00:10:02,625 the bag or something breaks and, um, well, and documentation's overhead. 171 00:10:03,285 --> 00:10:04,814 Documentation is overhead. 172 00:10:04,845 --> 00:10:07,725 It's something that isn't necessarily valued in, you 173 00:10:07,725 --> 00:10:09,314 know, by clients of a law firm. 174 00:10:09,375 --> 00:10:14,535 Anything that is, you know, not billable or not directly tied to 175 00:10:14,535 --> 00:10:17,235 billable work, that that becomes something that gets traded off. 176 00:10:17,235 --> 00:10:20,324 If push comes shove, hundred percent, and you know. 177 00:10:21,915 --> 00:10:26,055 Something else you and I talked about is the partnership model and 178 00:10:26,055 --> 00:10:31,515 the cash ba in the cash basis, which most not all AmLaw firms operate. 179 00:10:31,515 --> 00:10:35,115 There are some very big firms at the top of the AmLaw that, uh, are 180 00:10:35,115 --> 00:10:40,215 on an accrual basis, which shocked me honestly, because that's a. 181 00:10:41,115 --> 00:10:45,344 Interesting proposition when, you know, there are, there are pretty 182 00:10:45,555 --> 00:10:51,885 massive tax implications to pay taxes on work that has been delivered 183 00:10:51,885 --> 00:10:53,235 and invoiced but hasn't been. 184 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:53,520 Mm-hmm. 185 00:10:53,655 --> 00:10:55,064 The cash hasn't been collected. 186 00:10:55,515 --> 00:10:55,724 Right. 187 00:10:55,724 --> 00:10:58,275 Um, it evens out over the years. 188 00:10:58,334 --> 00:10:58,724 Right. 189 00:10:58,730 --> 00:11:05,145 Um, things that are, um, cash that hasn't been collected at the end of one year. 190 00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:11,250 Happen the following year, and overall it evens out, but cash basis accounting 191 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,150 and, and the law firm partnership model is really optimized for profit 192 00:11:15,150 --> 00:11:22,650 taking and it makes the whole concept of r and d and allocating capital to 193 00:11:22,650 --> 00:11:24,600 that, to those efforts a struggle. 194 00:11:24,605 --> 00:11:25,080 Do, do you agree? 195 00:11:26,130 --> 00:11:26,550 Yes. 196 00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:29,940 I, I think that, that the partnership model is, is basically 197 00:11:29,940 --> 00:11:31,350 designed to pass through. 198 00:11:31,845 --> 00:11:36,285 Uh, the profits to the partners every year, and then they pay the taxes on it. 199 00:11:36,285 --> 00:11:40,185 So that's part of the, you know, the interesting challenge, I think with some 200 00:11:40,185 --> 00:11:45,345 of these new AI native law firms that are starting up, thinking about how to 201 00:11:45,345 --> 00:11:50,475 capitalize differently instead of being a partnership, but more so corporation 202 00:11:50,475 --> 00:11:53,595 and having a value on the shares of. 203 00:11:54,030 --> 00:11:59,010 Stock, if you will, in the, uh, in the law firm is an interesting way 204 00:11:59,010 --> 00:12:03,810 because you can, you can then ask, the firm grows value those shares, 205 00:12:03,810 --> 00:12:07,829 and if somebody ends up exiting, they sell their shares and they sell 206 00:12:07,829 --> 00:12:11,099 them at whatever the valuation is or whatever the rules of the corporation 207 00:12:11,099 --> 00:12:13,365 are, it gives them incentives to. 208 00:12:13,959 --> 00:12:19,630 Add to the shareholder value, add to the overall value of the organization, and 209 00:12:19,630 --> 00:12:22,209 give some opportunity for profit and exit. 210 00:12:22,569 --> 00:12:25,900 Um, you know, I know one of the biggest challenges of partnerships 211 00:12:25,959 --> 00:12:29,800 in law firms that's, you know, from a practical sense is that the most senior 212 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,720 people in the firm have the strongest say and, uh, the biggest, uh, the 213 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,670 biggest ownership in the partnership. 214 00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:38,260 And they. 215 00:12:38,615 --> 00:12:41,945 Are okay with things changing the day after they leave, you know, 216 00:12:41,945 --> 00:12:43,535 and retire so that you know. 217 00:12:43,565 --> 00:12:46,115 But until then, they don't necessarily want to go through that. 218 00:12:46,115 --> 00:12:48,425 They'd rather just continue to get their profits the way 219 00:12:48,425 --> 00:12:49,655 they have all, all the time. 220 00:12:50,564 --> 00:12:50,985 Yeah. 221 00:12:51,015 --> 00:12:57,015 If, if, if a capital project, if the break even on a capital project extends 222 00:12:57,015 --> 00:13:01,365 beyond a stakeholder's retirement horizon, why would they vote for it? 223 00:13:01,420 --> 00:13:01,770 Right? 224 00:13:01,775 --> 00:13:01,875 Right. 225 00:13:01,935 --> 00:13:03,735 It's, it's only gonna cost them money. 226 00:13:04,155 --> 00:13:11,985 So that is a big challenge that I, I don't know how firms. 227 00:13:12,390 --> 00:13:17,939 Really dig themselves out of that dynamic because, you know, and another 228 00:13:17,939 --> 00:13:21,750 dynamic related to leadership at law firms is a lot of leaders got 229 00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:23,339 there by being the best at lawyering. 230 00:13:24,510 --> 00:13:24,810 Right. 231 00:13:24,810 --> 00:13:27,510 Or the best at relationships and selling, right? 232 00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:28,230 Yeah. 233 00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:33,089 Which I would in include in the, the broader bucket of lawyering, right? 234 00:13:33,089 --> 00:13:33,180 Yes. 235 00:13:33,180 --> 00:13:36,360 Not just delivering the legal work, but yeah, you gotta go sell it and keep the 236 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,060 client happy and all that sort of stuff. 237 00:13:39,089 --> 00:13:39,990 And, um. 238 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,600 That doesn't always make you the best leader. 239 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:43,830 Right, right. 240 00:13:43,980 --> 00:13:49,320 Um, so yeah, like what do you see as the, the future state? 241 00:13:50,190 --> 00:13:54,120 Um, is this model sustainable, a partnership model, cash basis? 242 00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:57,270 You know, people at the top of the. 243 00:13:58,349 --> 00:14:03,420 Like seniority spectrum, calling the shots with a retirement horizon. 244 00:14:03,420 --> 00:14:07,949 Very much insight like, I dunno, is this a sustainable model in this next, in 245 00:14:07,949 --> 00:14:09,719 this future state we're headed towards? 246 00:14:09,930 --> 00:14:12,180 I, you know, I've been thinking about things, 'cause I've got 247 00:14:12,180 --> 00:14:13,260 an engineering background. 248 00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:17,010 I've been thinking about a lot of this because it's so unpredictable right 249 00:14:17,010 --> 00:14:21,209 now in terms of systems analysis and looking at the, the broader system. 250 00:14:21,209 --> 00:14:24,599 So I do believe that there are some things that are going to change. 251 00:14:24,965 --> 00:14:27,815 You know, interpretation of unauthorized practice of law. 252 00:14:28,115 --> 00:14:30,305 I think that's an area that that could give. 253 00:14:30,305 --> 00:14:35,345 And if that gives, that changes a lot in terms of what the viable structures 254 00:14:35,345 --> 00:14:37,145 are going to look like for law firms. 255 00:14:37,445 --> 00:14:40,535 I also think that managed services organizations are going 256 00:14:40,535 --> 00:14:42,905 to be, you know, more prominent. 257 00:14:42,965 --> 00:14:46,745 And one of the areas that I think that it needs to be teased out a little 258 00:14:46,745 --> 00:14:52,835 bit more is the line between advice, you know, and legal information. 259 00:14:53,105 --> 00:14:53,675 I think. 260 00:14:54,030 --> 00:14:56,790 You know, the medical profession used to go to a doctor, you 261 00:14:56,790 --> 00:14:59,370 know, or a doctor would make house calls even back in the day. 262 00:14:59,430 --> 00:15:01,680 And there wasn't a lot of specialization. 263 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,860 There wasn't a lot of, um, discerning what. 264 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,040 Really you needed medical advice for, and I think those 265 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,140 analogies play into the law too. 266 00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:14,219 Uh, you have x-ray technicians that will make sure that your 267 00:15:14,219 --> 00:15:15,630 x-ray was taken properly. 268 00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:17,969 Then you have a different technician that reviews the 269 00:15:17,969 --> 00:15:19,439 outcome of that and the output. 270 00:15:19,439 --> 00:15:22,829 You have physician's assistants that can now prescribe medicine. 271 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:24,089 There's like one. 272 00:15:24,525 --> 00:15:28,155 1 million lawyers, or one, one in 17 healthcare workers 273 00:15:28,155 --> 00:15:29,265 is actually a doctor now. 274 00:15:29,715 --> 00:15:33,645 Um, so there's a very small percentage of those, and they're very 275 00:15:33,645 --> 00:15:37,785 specialized doing work, you know, on, you know, brain surgery versus, 276 00:15:38,115 --> 00:15:39,555 you know, being a pediatrician. 277 00:15:39,735 --> 00:15:43,455 So there's a broad, you know, spectrum of specialization there. 278 00:15:43,725 --> 00:15:46,905 And I don't think that law has done that in the same way. 279 00:15:47,445 --> 00:15:48,525 And if anything. 280 00:15:49,439 --> 00:15:54,060 The, the regulations around, you know, a, b, a five, four and five five, and 281 00:15:54,060 --> 00:15:58,500 as they've been deployed, you know, by state Supreme Courts that has kind of 282 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:03,510 created these, these barriers where you don't even get close to the edge of legal 283 00:16:03,510 --> 00:16:08,100 advice versus legal information to the point that like individual consumers, 284 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:09,630 how would they know what the law is? 285 00:16:09,870 --> 00:16:14,640 Um, you know, unless they had access to the, the stack of books that 286 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,015 are on the bookshelf at the law firm and knew how to read those. 287 00:16:18,705 --> 00:16:21,225 You know, so my first entrepreneurial venture, I 288 00:16:21,225 --> 00:16:22,875 started a collection agency, okay. 289 00:16:22,875 --> 00:16:25,965 Before I was old enough to drink 1993. 290 00:16:26,565 --> 00:16:31,545 And, uh, how it started was my mom owned, uh, a restaurant in downtown 291 00:16:31,545 --> 00:16:33,015 Raleigh, and during the day. 292 00:16:34,090 --> 00:16:37,900 She was from Philadelphia, so we had a hogie shop and I was delivery, 293 00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:41,650 boy, I used to deliver all to the state employees during the day. 294 00:16:41,650 --> 00:16:46,270 And then at night there's probably like six, seven colleges in Raleigh, uh, NC 295 00:16:46,270 --> 00:16:48,760 State, Meredith College, Shaw University. 296 00:16:49,210 --> 00:16:52,420 Anyway, both of those sets of people. 297 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,070 Kind of live paycheck to paycheck, and they bounce a lot of checks. 298 00:16:56,070 --> 00:16:56,160 Mm-hmm. 299 00:16:56,665 --> 00:17:01,470 So I was a junior at UNC Chapel Hill right down the road, and my mom kind 300 00:17:01,470 --> 00:17:06,300 of put me in charge of collecting these checks and I, I was making money, uh, 301 00:17:06,329 --> 00:17:08,190 doing it, you know, part-time job. 302 00:17:08,190 --> 00:17:10,200 I was making like six, 800 bucks a week. 303 00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:14,610 So I quit school for a year, started this business, and then went back 304 00:17:14,610 --> 00:17:15,810 and finished my degree at night. 305 00:17:16,470 --> 00:17:19,470 But, um, I went and learned all the statutes myself. 306 00:17:19,470 --> 00:17:20,490 I still remember 'em. 307 00:17:20,550 --> 00:17:21,900 Um, uh. 308 00:17:22,349 --> 00:17:27,900 5 21 0.6. So it's a criminal offense in North Carolina to, uh, bounce a check. 309 00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:34,290 And then there's a civil statute, um, 6 21 0.3 that allows for trouble damages. 310 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,940 If you sue somebody in civil court, you can get trouble your damages. 311 00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:39,510 Wow. 312 00:17:39,570 --> 00:17:41,670 The amount, three times the amount of the check. 313 00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:46,560 And, you know, I just kind of figured it out again, had no legal background 314 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,030 and made a successful business. 315 00:17:49,215 --> 00:17:56,415 But yeah, you know, small business people and consumers who aren't as, um, 316 00:17:56,805 --> 00:18:05,265 savvy or determined, it's a struggle to really get, learn, navigate the system. 317 00:18:06,735 --> 00:18:10,605 I think one practical example of that is, I think the first time I really 318 00:18:10,605 --> 00:18:14,445 was involved in creating a playbook for, uh, the company I was working 319 00:18:14,445 --> 00:18:17,235 for on how to negotiate contracts. 320 00:18:17,235 --> 00:18:18,675 And so we, we came up with what. 321 00:18:20,715 --> 00:18:25,245 Template for our contracts because we're getting negotiation pushback in a 322 00:18:25,245 --> 00:18:28,125 number of different areas and how things were one sided shouldn't have been. 323 00:18:28,485 --> 00:18:30,975 And we came up with what's our, what's our fallback and what's our 324 00:18:30,975 --> 00:18:32,595 fallback from there and everything. 325 00:18:32,895 --> 00:18:37,455 And it was a lot of legal input and legal advice at the upfront. 326 00:18:37,725 --> 00:18:39,585 But once you had that document. 327 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,590 You know, a salesperson could go through and navigate through a fair 328 00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:48,120 amount of the negotiation before you needed business advice first. 329 00:18:48,330 --> 00:18:52,350 And then there were a few exceptions where you needed legal advice and 330 00:18:52,350 --> 00:18:55,470 you needed to bring the lawyer back in to, to work through something. 331 00:18:55,470 --> 00:18:59,160 But you know, we even got down to the path of like, okay, when dealing 332 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,640 with limitations of liability, well we'll give on gross negligence. 333 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,440 Pass number three, because most states in New York, which was what we were 334 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,760 contracting in, you can't, you know, you, you have unlimited damages and 335 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,830 unlimited liability for gross negligence. 336 00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:16,620 So it really wasn't a give, but it was optically a give. 337 00:19:16,740 --> 00:19:21,540 And that was part of the, the business strategy that we used based upon that. 338 00:19:21,780 --> 00:19:22,860 And that's a good example. 339 00:19:22,860 --> 00:19:25,890 I think you can have a lawyer involved every step of the way, every 340 00:19:25,890 --> 00:19:27,840 negotiation, which isn't efficient. 341 00:19:28,110 --> 00:19:31,050 Or you can design a process legal. 342 00:19:32,385 --> 00:19:35,955 Let's the business run and then manage the exceptions where you 343 00:19:35,955 --> 00:19:39,855 need the lawyer and the legal advice on the backend when those occur. 344 00:19:40,875 --> 00:19:41,055 Yeah. 345 00:19:41,055 --> 00:19:41,685 Interesting. 346 00:19:41,685 --> 00:19:48,645 You, you brought up, um, a BA model rule five four, which is the, the addresses, 347 00:19:48,645 --> 00:19:55,815 the non-legal ownership that creates a barrier for external capital to 348 00:19:55,875 --> 00:19:58,305 participate in any sort of fee sharing. 349 00:19:58,365 --> 00:20:00,945 And as a result of that. 350 00:20:01,875 --> 00:20:09,524 There are workarounds in place, which are MSOs as an example, and I've 351 00:20:09,524 --> 00:20:13,574 actually seen some of the proposals. 352 00:20:14,175 --> 00:20:17,024 Uh, there's a, they, they fall on a pretty wide spectrum. 353 00:20:17,595 --> 00:20:22,695 Um, I've seen where there is a legitimate MSO being stood up. 354 00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:27,060 Where they take care of many of the back office functions and deliver 355 00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:28,860 some economies of scale around that. 356 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,620 And then they're, they're, that's one end of the spectrum. 357 00:20:31,620 --> 00:20:35,760 The other end of the spectrum, it's just a way for to, to get money 358 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,440 out of the firm for the partners. 359 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:37,530 Right. 360 00:20:37,980 --> 00:20:42,990 And uh, I got, a friend of mine owns a 50 attorney law firm and he 361 00:20:42,990 --> 00:20:46,020 shared this with me and I looked at it, I was like, wow, there's 362 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,050 real, this is purely just a way to. 363 00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:53,460 Um, inject capital and get some participation externally. 364 00:20:53,670 --> 00:20:56,610 I mean, is this a, this seems like a bandaid. 365 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:00,900 Is this a long-term approach we're gonna see here? 366 00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:04,530 I don't have a real crystal ball on this one, but I, I think that, 367 00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:05,765 you know, start with observation. 368 00:21:07,290 --> 00:21:12,240 Intuit and TurboTax is something that people tend to be familiar with as, as 369 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,600 a, uh, a way to prepare your own taxes. 370 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,880 And if you go to A-A-C-P-A to have your taxes done, you're probably using either 371 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,830 a Thomson Reuters, a Walters Klu, or an Intuit professional grade version of 372 00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:27,180 a product that's similar to TurboTax. 373 00:21:27,930 --> 00:21:31,170 Um, they're just using it behind the scenes and so. 374 00:21:31,710 --> 00:21:37,590 The point that I wanna make here is, is that those technologies are interpreting. 375 00:21:38,324 --> 00:21:42,915 Tax law, um, law, tying it in with facts, and then creating a tax return 376 00:21:42,945 --> 00:21:45,824 for compliance because everybody has to comply and pay their taxes. 377 00:21:46,155 --> 00:21:48,465 Um, it's, it's a narrow area. 378 00:21:48,764 --> 00:21:51,195 It's very limited in its regulation. 379 00:21:51,195 --> 00:21:53,715 The IRS requires, um, that. 380 00:21:54,010 --> 00:21:58,810 Any tax software product actually create the, the proper e-file format so it 381 00:21:58,810 --> 00:22:04,060 doesn't get a file, doesn't get rejected, but there's not a lot of regulation on, 382 00:22:04,420 --> 00:22:06,340 you know, tax software companies at all. 383 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,740 And that's something that. 384 00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:14,670 Other industries can do, whether it's manufacturing or you know, medical 385 00:22:14,670 --> 00:22:20,940 profession or or tax, where you can have a third party organization invest 386 00:22:20,940 --> 00:22:25,800 in a vendor solution that can be benefited by all players in the market. 387 00:22:26,460 --> 00:22:28,440 And legally you can't do that. 388 00:22:29,399 --> 00:22:32,790 It's there's, this is why you're getting these areas of bending and working around 389 00:22:32,790 --> 00:22:37,290 right now because ownership capital. 390 00:22:38,719 --> 00:22:41,750 Contribute, all the investors in it are lawyers. 391 00:22:41,959 --> 00:22:43,550 I guess that could theoretically work. 392 00:22:43,820 --> 00:22:49,399 You know, a, a law firm or a corporation that wants to be a vendor can't do it 393 00:22:49,399 --> 00:22:53,090 because they would have to be a law firm and governed by legal rules because they 394 00:22:53,090 --> 00:22:56,360 might be advising, you know, on the law. 395 00:22:56,719 --> 00:22:58,520 And I think that's the, the big issue. 396 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,340 So right now I feel like these are workarounds, but I also think that 397 00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:05,360 there's a fair amount of pressure right now building to, you know. 398 00:23:05,790 --> 00:23:08,645 Uh, adjust the UPL enforcement. 399 00:23:09,824 --> 00:23:14,264 It may be more non-enforcement than it is actual enforcement because so much 400 00:23:14,564 --> 00:23:16,875 is going on, especially with open ai. 401 00:23:16,995 --> 00:23:20,715 I think they just, you know, created open AI medical, and I don't you, 402 00:23:21,044 --> 00:23:25,665 you can use chat GBT to plead a case in court right now and their, you 403 00:23:25,665 --> 00:23:29,290 know, stories on NBC news and other things where, you know, individuals 404 00:23:29,564 --> 00:23:34,094 have done that and, and have won, uh, cases where they're being evicted from 405 00:23:34,094 --> 00:23:35,895 their home and other things like that. 406 00:23:36,275 --> 00:23:38,315 That's a very common thing right now. 407 00:23:38,315 --> 00:23:44,855 And I think when you get that practical usage of technology, it 408 00:23:44,885 --> 00:23:49,475 becomes more of a political issue than a a legal enforcement issue. 409 00:23:49,805 --> 00:23:53,495 And I do think there are legitimate questions of can technology, especially 410 00:23:53,495 --> 00:23:56,435 predictive LLM type technologies. 411 00:23:59,975 --> 00:24:00,335 Yeah. 412 00:24:05,145 --> 00:24:09,165 Like the, there's been a complete lack of enforcement with respect 413 00:24:09,165 --> 00:24:10,995 to generative AI and mm-hmm. 414 00:24:11,235 --> 00:24:12,645 What it's delivering. 415 00:24:13,275 --> 00:24:20,475 And, um, it would be a PR nightmare for the bar to go try to enforce. 416 00:24:21,015 --> 00:24:24,105 And, uh, I've had this debate with somebody on a LinkedIn thread. 417 00:24:24,195 --> 00:24:24,675 Um. 418 00:24:25,635 --> 00:24:27,885 They, they have done this in the past. 419 00:24:27,885 --> 00:24:29,115 They have gone after. 420 00:24:29,505 --> 00:24:33,795 But I think what's different about this time is the ubiquity of the technology. 421 00:24:33,795 --> 00:24:33,885 Mm-hmm. 422 00:24:34,155 --> 00:24:35,565 It's not an isolated case. 423 00:24:35,925 --> 00:24:38,805 It would be very unpopular. 424 00:24:39,389 --> 00:24:47,189 For if a group of well-to-do, you know, or, or, or a industry group representing 425 00:24:47,189 --> 00:24:52,050 a bunch of, well-to-do lawyers, decided to go attack chat, GPT, you know, 426 00:24:52,050 --> 00:24:57,090 open AI and anthropic and these model providers because of, and, and further 427 00:24:57,090 --> 00:25:00,570 limit access, I think there would be pitchforks and torches if that happened. 428 00:25:00,810 --> 00:25:01,080 Right. 429 00:25:01,274 --> 00:25:03,659 And I, and I think that's part of it too, when you get into 430 00:25:03,659 --> 00:25:05,189 the political aspect of it. 431 00:25:05,940 --> 00:25:10,620 You're, if you go after an individual, the individual is gonna be enjoined to 432 00:25:10,620 --> 00:25:14,790 open AI or philanthropic or whatever The large language model provider was, 433 00:25:14,790 --> 00:25:19,620 was using this, and so now there's big money That's also then attached to 434 00:25:19,980 --> 00:25:24,870 this in what I would call industrial revolution, is AI industrial revolution 435 00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:26,685 that's occurring right now for which. 436 00:25:27,379 --> 00:25:31,010 You know, the Biden administration and the current administration have, you 437 00:25:31,010 --> 00:25:35,600 know, adjusted policies, recognizing that it's strategically important for us 438 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,270 to control computing power and to have the energy and the water and everything 439 00:25:41,270 --> 00:25:46,280 else to be able to scale up massively large data centers to win the ai. 440 00:25:47,129 --> 00:25:51,689 Revolution if you'll, so I think there's a lot of things like that that are playing 441 00:25:51,780 --> 00:25:57,270 together and harmonizing where, you know, in my, the next article that I'm, uh, 442 00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:02,610 just submitted is really about how UPL is bending right now under the, the physical 443 00:26:02,610 --> 00:26:05,129 pressure of all these forces right now. 444 00:26:05,129 --> 00:26:06,429 And that's the thing that's gonna have to give. 445 00:26:07,575 --> 00:26:08,175 Hundred percent. 446 00:26:08,175 --> 00:26:08,415 Yeah. 447 00:26:08,415 --> 00:26:11,025 I think especially with this administration there, 448 00:26:11,085 --> 00:26:12,645 it would be very difficult. 449 00:26:13,035 --> 00:26:17,565 There, there's a lot of headwinds towards enforcement around that. 450 00:26:18,225 --> 00:26:25,035 Um, so, you know, we, we, there are a lot of what I see as, as headwinds 451 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,905 for firms, especially in big law. 452 00:26:28,935 --> 00:26:29,140 You know, they. 453 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:33,150 I've jokingly called, and I didn't make this term up, but 454 00:26:33,180 --> 00:26:34,620 you know, big law is hotel. 455 00:26:34,770 --> 00:26:36,030 It's a hotel for lawyers. 456 00:26:36,150 --> 00:26:36,240 Yeah. 457 00:26:36,510 --> 00:26:41,220 Um, you know, the, the lateral mobility and, you know, the ability 458 00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:45,630 for a, a lawyer to take his book of business with him or her across 459 00:26:45,630 --> 00:26:48,330 the street is, is somewhat unique. 460 00:26:48,330 --> 00:26:52,500 Like, um, it doesn't exist in most other industries, but because of the 461 00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:56,160 A BA rules that, um, require that. 462 00:26:56,925 --> 00:26:59,595 That lawyers act in the best interest of their clients. 463 00:26:59,835 --> 00:27:05,205 They, the, the firm really can't lay claim to those relationships, and they 464 00:27:05,415 --> 00:27:07,274 most often go with the lawyers, right? 465 00:27:07,274 --> 00:27:11,415 But that cre, that creates headwinds for capital investment, right? 466 00:27:11,415 --> 00:27:16,425 So if I'm not, if I'm not invested even as a partner, if I'm not invested 467 00:27:16,845 --> 00:27:23,835 fully in my relationship with this law firm and there's a capital. 468 00:27:24,405 --> 00:27:29,865 Expense or investment that needs to be made, I'm not likely to vote on it. 469 00:27:29,865 --> 00:27:31,905 I don't know if I'm gonna be here in three years. 470 00:27:31,910 --> 00:27:32,355 Right, right. 471 00:27:32,355 --> 00:27:37,155 I mean, how do you see the, how do you see that dynamic impacting 472 00:27:37,155 --> 00:27:40,754 firm's ability to like make big investments in things like tech? 473 00:27:41,175 --> 00:27:41,595 Right. 474 00:27:41,835 --> 00:27:45,015 Well, being in South Florida right now, I think about hurricanes a little bit. 475 00:27:45,015 --> 00:27:48,315 And you know, if the wind blows in the right direction and just the 476 00:27:48,315 --> 00:27:52,005 right way, it can knock and find the vulnerability in the structure. 477 00:27:52,005 --> 00:27:54,705 And I think that if you think of law firms. 478 00:27:55,605 --> 00:27:56,745 As structure. 479 00:27:56,985 --> 00:28:00,705 I think there are some ways that the wind can blow that could be pretty dangerous. 480 00:28:00,975 --> 00:28:04,514 And you know, I just was reading, uh, somebody noted I 481 00:28:04,514 --> 00:28:05,774 was talking about somebody Dr. 482 00:28:05,835 --> 00:28:11,475 This morning and, um, you know, they basically acquired 24 partners from, uh, 483 00:28:11,625 --> 00:28:14,325 uh, McDermott Will, uh, in the last week. 484 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,760 And one of the attorneys, one of the articles I was reading about 485 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,080 it afterwards was mentioning that Decker's a good platform for them. 486 00:28:23,439 --> 00:28:28,000 Um, which I think really kind of speaks to the hoteling and the, the power that 487 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,010 the attorneys have over the platform of the shell that that enables them to work 488 00:28:33,010 --> 00:28:34,929 together and provides that infrastructure. 489 00:28:34,929 --> 00:28:38,679 So I think there is a potential that law firms. 490 00:28:38,935 --> 00:28:41,935 If the wind blows in a particular direction, you know, you could 491 00:28:41,935 --> 00:28:46,135 see more firms start to, you know, unwind if you will. 492 00:28:46,495 --> 00:28:51,235 It's a result of, you know, changes with AI and technology and rethinking 493 00:28:51,655 --> 00:28:55,405 structures, and who should do what work and what work really requires advice. 494 00:28:56,475 --> 00:28:56,745 Yeah. 495 00:28:56,745 --> 00:29:01,425 You know, there was the McGlinchy uh, wind down that was announced recently. 496 00:29:01,425 --> 00:29:01,514 Mm-hmm. 497 00:29:01,905 --> 00:29:05,564 And I'm, I don't know, is that a, is that a canary in the coal mine? 498 00:29:05,564 --> 00:29:12,044 We didn't, they didn't, you know, no, no reasons were that I saw were disclosed 499 00:29:12,044 --> 00:29:15,195 publicly as to the motivation for it. 500 00:29:15,199 --> 00:29:19,094 But, um, you know, by, and, and they were outside the AM law. 501 00:29:19,155 --> 00:29:20,205 Uh, maybe, maybe. 502 00:29:21,135 --> 00:29:21,765 Attorneys. 503 00:29:21,945 --> 00:29:22,035 Mm-hmm. 504 00:29:22,545 --> 00:29:23,055 Ish. 505 00:29:23,445 --> 00:29:28,155 But you know, is that, I honestly see that I call that mid law. 506 00:29:28,185 --> 00:29:34,545 I know many vendors it, it's smaller than that, but for us as a segment, that's 507 00:29:34,545 --> 00:29:36,405 kind of like what we consider mid law. 508 00:29:36,885 --> 00:29:46,695 I would say that 100 to 400 attorney range feels especially vulnerable to me because. 509 00:29:47,325 --> 00:29:51,405 I think that, um, you know, they're not getting usually the bet the 510 00:29:51,405 --> 00:29:53,775 company, you know, matters, right? 511 00:29:53,775 --> 00:29:55,935 That's going to the mostly am law firms. 512 00:29:56,655 --> 00:30:01,545 There's a, they have fewer resources and capabilities, right? 513 00:30:01,545 --> 00:30:04,845 They don't have the same, you know, big KM teams. 514 00:30:04,845 --> 00:30:07,515 In fact, most don't have KM teams at all. 515 00:30:08,055 --> 00:30:12,525 Um, and they have less partner capital. 516 00:30:12,795 --> 00:30:14,625 To, to deploy. 517 00:30:14,805 --> 00:30:18,705 I don't know, but some people disagree with me on this, but, uh, I think there's 518 00:30:18,705 --> 00:30:20,025 a lot, a lot of ways to look at it. 519 00:30:20,025 --> 00:30:23,355 But I think on, on the smaller end of the spectrum, you know, 520 00:30:23,355 --> 00:30:25,215 it's, uh, they're speedboats. 521 00:30:25,215 --> 00:30:28,905 They have the ability to pivot quickly and try new things and take risks. 522 00:30:29,475 --> 00:30:33,255 And then at the top of the market, uh, yeah, they're big oil tankers, 523 00:30:33,435 --> 00:30:35,505 but they also have a lot of resources. 524 00:30:35,505 --> 00:30:37,945 So it feels like the middle of the market might. 525 00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:42,810 Might have more challenges with a tech in a tech transformation. 526 00:30:42,810 --> 00:30:43,830 Is that how you view it? 527 00:30:45,705 --> 00:30:50,025 I'm not sure how much the tech piece really is the factor. 528 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,205 I, I tend to think of it from a client perspective and 529 00:30:53,205 --> 00:30:54,735 define the market that way. 530 00:30:55,065 --> 00:30:59,235 So using, using the analogy of tax and accounting, since I haven't been 531 00:30:59,235 --> 00:31:03,975 exclusively in, in law my entire career, I spent a decent amount of time there. 532 00:31:03,975 --> 00:31:05,805 And accounting firms, you have the. 533 00:31:13,515 --> 00:31:16,155 Of serving multinational corporations. 534 00:31:16,545 --> 00:31:19,305 Then, you know, it's been a little while since I've looked at the 535 00:31:19,305 --> 00:31:23,805 numbers, but the next 30 or so are really national in scope. 536 00:31:23,835 --> 00:31:28,695 They're here to serve the needs, the US domestic needs of. 537 00:31:29,415 --> 00:31:33,135 You know, a national company or the US domestic needs of a corporation. 538 00:31:33,495 --> 00:31:36,345 And then you get below that and you start to get into regionals. 539 00:31:36,405 --> 00:31:40,905 And regionals have been bought up by others that are trying to expand 540 00:31:40,905 --> 00:31:44,385 their national footprint, and it's kind of like an hourglass model. 541 00:31:44,385 --> 00:31:47,505 When you look at the total number of accountants you've got. 542 00:31:47,689 --> 00:31:49,460 A lot at the high end of the market. 543 00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:53,030 Then you have this narrow area, like an hour class, and then you go down 544 00:31:53,030 --> 00:31:56,210 and you have the smaller ones that are dealing with local, small businesses 545 00:31:56,210 --> 00:31:59,870 that really are never gonna work outside of, you know, uh, Columbus, 546 00:31:59,870 --> 00:32:02,540 Ohio, or Tallahassee, Florida. 547 00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:04,879 It's just, that's, that's kind of where they're at. 548 00:32:05,149 --> 00:32:09,679 So I look at it that way, and I think these mid law regional firms 549 00:32:09,679 --> 00:32:14,149 like McGlinchy have, you know, as long as things are relatively static 550 00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:16,010 in their market and who they serve. 551 00:32:16,455 --> 00:32:21,495 They're gonna be okay, but you, you know, look at Walmart, look at, look 552 00:32:21,495 --> 00:32:26,445 at the consolidation across, you know, international organizations, 553 00:32:26,895 --> 00:32:31,305 retail, manufacturing, you know the number of companies that are 554 00:32:31,305 --> 00:32:32,955 that kind of regional kind of. 555 00:32:33,020 --> 00:32:34,700 Footprint, I think are shrinking. 556 00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:36,650 I think that's the real issue. 557 00:32:36,650 --> 00:32:40,160 And when that happens, then you have to take your speedboat and decide how 558 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,540 do you leverage the strengths of your speedboat and find out can you be more 559 00:32:44,540 --> 00:32:48,650 effective at transactional work and pivot and give more, you know, uh, 560 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,639 focused customer service to those, or do you know the court system. 561 00:32:52,935 --> 00:32:57,915 Exceptionally well so that any big law firm that's gonna go to San Antonio and 562 00:32:57,915 --> 00:33:02,385 has to, you know, plead a case, is gonna come to you to help because you're the 563 00:33:02,385 --> 00:33:04,544 ones that know the courts in San Antonio. 564 00:33:04,935 --> 00:33:09,375 Um, those are the sorts of things that I think, you know, strategically mid law 565 00:33:09,375 --> 00:33:10,965 firms are gonna need to think through. 566 00:33:11,235 --> 00:33:13,784 They're probably gonna wanna be fast followers on technology. 567 00:33:13,784 --> 00:33:16,605 I would let big law do the learning. 568 00:33:17,595 --> 00:33:21,765 Organized in teacher IT department, in the rescue firm to be 569 00:33:21,765 --> 00:33:23,805 understanding what works and why. 570 00:33:24,105 --> 00:33:28,995 Is it, you know, is it the optics and politics of saying, Hey, look, look, we've 571 00:33:28,995 --> 00:33:33,885 got Lara or rv, or you know, look what we did with, with, um, uh, co-counsel. 572 00:33:34,815 --> 00:33:39,945 Or is it something where there's like legitimate value and, and be prepared 573 00:33:39,945 --> 00:33:42,045 to deploy successful solutions quickly? 574 00:33:43,515 --> 00:33:43,695 Yeah. 575 00:33:43,695 --> 00:33:46,665 If you're in the speedboat, stay away from the coast of Venezuela. 576 00:33:49,005 --> 00:33:50,175 Things could end badly. 577 00:33:50,625 --> 00:33:51,615 Um, yeah. 578 00:33:51,615 --> 00:33:54,645 You know, it's, and, and the, the account, that's a really good, I, I 579 00:33:54,645 --> 00:33:58,245 think that, you know, the consulting slash accounting world is the 580 00:33:58,245 --> 00:34:00,255 closest adjacent industry to legal. 581 00:34:00,255 --> 00:34:00,375 Mm-hmm. 582 00:34:00,795 --> 00:34:02,415 And vastly different. 583 00:34:03,030 --> 00:34:04,110 Dynamics there. 584 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:10,170 Uh, in terms of, you know, the big four combined revenue is about 240 billion. 585 00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:15,449 Um, if you add up all of the revenue, the AMLO 100, it's about 160 billion. 586 00:34:15,449 --> 00:34:15,540 Mm-hmm. 587 00:34:15,870 --> 00:34:17,880 That's basically Deloitte and ey. 588 00:34:18,779 --> 00:34:19,049 Right. 589 00:34:19,049 --> 00:34:23,489 Two firms equal the revenue of a hundred law of the top 100 law firms. 590 00:34:23,819 --> 00:34:24,060 Right. 591 00:34:24,060 --> 00:34:27,120 And um, if you look at, you know, there's the big four and 592 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:32,040 everybody else, I think it's Grant Thornton is single digits, right. 593 00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:35,549 KPMG's at the bottom of the big four at 45 billion. 594 00:34:35,939 --> 00:34:41,100 And then, um, grant Thornton, I think is Thor ddo, rsm, glads type. 595 00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:42,149 Yeah. 596 00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:43,859 All single digit billion. 597 00:34:43,859 --> 00:34:47,879 So it's like I could see the market moving. 598 00:34:48,435 --> 00:34:54,194 That way in terms of, you know, and the, the, the biggest players in the 599 00:34:54,194 --> 00:34:58,035 space, and I guess, you know, the, the, that mid tier two, the Grant Thorntons 600 00:34:58,035 --> 00:34:59,265 of the world, they do this also. 601 00:34:59,265 --> 00:35:02,865 It's, you know, it's tax advisory and consulting. 602 00:35:03,075 --> 00:35:03,404 Yes. 603 00:35:03,495 --> 00:35:04,484 Um, right. 604 00:35:04,484 --> 00:35:09,225 It's not just a single, um, it's not just a single focus, or, I'm 605 00:35:09,225 --> 00:35:11,625 sorry, audit, tax advisory and audit. 606 00:35:11,625 --> 00:35:11,714 Right. 607 00:35:12,075 --> 00:35:12,495 Um. 608 00:35:13,410 --> 00:35:13,620 Yeah. 609 00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:13,920 I don't know. 610 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,910 Do you see, I, I feel like the, the market is right for consolidation. 611 00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:20,339 Do you, do you feel that it is, 612 00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:27,990 I don't know how much it's gonna consolidate in big law at this point, 613 00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:30,120 but I do think that mid law is. 614 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,810 Get squeezed a little bit more and they're gonna have to figure out how to focus. 615 00:35:33,810 --> 00:35:38,040 And if they can't focus, maybe they become the San Antonio or 616 00:35:38,220 --> 00:35:43,830 you know, south Texas, you know, regional arm of an AM law 200 firm. 617 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:45,720 I think those things will happen. 618 00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:48,480 So I definitely think there'll be consolidation from that standpoint. 619 00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:52,230 Um, I also think that, that there's the bigger forces of 620 00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:53,670 things moving in-house too. 621 00:35:53,700 --> 00:35:57,840 So that's, you know, that's another area where if more work goes in, and I'm 622 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,790 even hearing of a, you know, handful. 623 00:36:00,009 --> 00:36:03,819 You know, larger corporations, bringing some in-house litigators in, which I 624 00:36:03,819 --> 00:36:07,750 thought was very interesting because to me that's very bespoke and something 625 00:36:07,750 --> 00:36:09,279 where, you know, it's a distraction. 626 00:36:09,279 --> 00:36:12,700 You're getting sued, don't, you know, to the point of distractions, 627 00:36:12,970 --> 00:36:14,080 that's not something you wanna do. 628 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,990 But if you have enough of it, it's repeatable that you 629 00:36:16,990 --> 00:36:18,910 can handle that in-house. 630 00:36:18,910 --> 00:36:19,690 Maybe you do. 631 00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:23,799 So those are some of the, the factors that I think are, are very intriguing. 632 00:36:23,799 --> 00:36:27,100 And there's some interesting facet, like with. 633 00:36:28,590 --> 00:36:35,100 P, W, C and E both in in the accounting space when work kept going inhouse 634 00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:39,540 and in-house and inhouse for tax work, which trend for decades. 635 00:36:40,650 --> 00:36:43,320 PWC bought GEs tax departments. 636 00:36:43,770 --> 00:36:43,830 Yeah. 637 00:36:44,850 --> 00:36:49,710 And ENY bought Duke Energy's tax department and basically said, you know, 638 00:36:49,740 --> 00:36:51,540 we'll, we'll take care of all your issues. 639 00:36:51,540 --> 00:36:54,390 We'll do it for less money and we'll do it better than what you could do inhouse. 640 00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:57,180 And they onboarded those, those people and they got rebadged, 641 00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:59,700 this PWC or EY employees. 642 00:37:00,060 --> 00:37:04,560 I think one of the very interesting things, it's like a, um, a follow 643 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,370 on force that may play through here is what's stopping an AM law. 644 00:37:09,135 --> 00:37:13,905 Hundred firm from going and approaching one of their larger clients and saying, 645 00:37:13,905 --> 00:37:17,385 look, you got 150 in-house attorneys here. 646 00:37:17,925 --> 00:37:20,115 We'll take that over for you. 647 00:37:20,625 --> 00:37:24,405 We'll guarantee that we'll cut your expenses for 20%. 648 00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:29,040 Based on your projections for the next five years, um, and will just be your 649 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,960 outsourced legal department in total. 650 00:37:31,290 --> 00:37:35,370 Um, I think that would be a very provocative and interesting thing to see 651 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,270 play out, especially as the law firms start to figure out how to separate the 652 00:37:39,270 --> 00:37:43,020 managed services and the information side of things from the advice. 653 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,980 Um, I think if too much work goes in-house, I could see that 654 00:37:46,980 --> 00:37:50,310 sort of thing playing out, you know, as a, a kind of pause. 655 00:37:50,655 --> 00:37:54,705 Um, because there's, there's political and there's personal implications to 656 00:37:54,705 --> 00:37:56,565 those things, not just the economics. 657 00:37:57,690 --> 00:37:58,080 Yeah. 658 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,130 You know, um, and another, I think maybe for opposing force to 659 00:38:02,130 --> 00:38:07,560 consolidation is law firms don't scale very well, which is why, you know, 660 00:38:07,650 --> 00:38:09,900 we have k and e at the top at mm-hmm. 661 00:38:10,140 --> 00:38:11,340 Eight and a half billion. 662 00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:14,850 And that wouldn't even qualify you to be in the Fortune 500 if you were public. 663 00:38:14,850 --> 00:38:14,940 Right. 664 00:38:15,660 --> 00:38:18,540 They don't scale very well because of the bespoke nature 665 00:38:18,990 --> 00:38:20,970 and the lack of consistency. 666 00:38:21,630 --> 00:38:22,650 Um, and the. 667 00:38:23,205 --> 00:38:30,195 Um, increased lateral mobility of partners and it's just a hard business 668 00:38:30,615 --> 00:38:34,365 to scale when everything is bespoke. 669 00:38:34,365 --> 00:38:39,945 But what we're, there is a large tranche of legal work that is 670 00:38:40,635 --> 00:38:47,295 going to move to a FA and once that happens, so it's about 20% right now. 671 00:38:47,775 --> 00:38:51,525 Um, I could see that getting into the mid forties. 672 00:38:52,334 --> 00:38:53,354 Uh, over time. 673 00:38:53,685 --> 00:38:53,834 Right? 674 00:38:53,834 --> 00:38:58,604 And once that happens, then efficiency is really gonna be a focus. 675 00:38:58,935 --> 00:39:02,444 And when that happens, these law firms are gonna have to operate differently, and 676 00:39:02,444 --> 00:39:05,595 then economies of scale may materialize. 677 00:39:05,595 --> 00:39:05,654 Yeah. 678 00:39:05,774 --> 00:39:06,435 Would you agree? 679 00:39:07,064 --> 00:39:07,245 Yeah. 680 00:39:07,245 --> 00:39:11,745 I think that's the real critical question, is these managed services organizations, 681 00:39:11,745 --> 00:39:13,439 how labor intensive are they? 682 00:39:14,180 --> 00:39:15,600 If if they are. 683 00:39:16,365 --> 00:39:22,065 Minimally labor intensive and you can get, you know, a, a task to be 90% automated 684 00:39:22,185 --> 00:39:25,125 with technology and 10% with, with staff. 685 00:39:25,455 --> 00:39:27,435 I think you can get economies of scale. 686 00:39:27,495 --> 00:39:32,685 It gets 50 50 or, or there's a limit in terms of how much you can do with 687 00:39:32,685 --> 00:39:37,694 technology and then to get the next, you know, the next, uh, client or 688 00:39:37,694 --> 00:39:40,845 to do the next, uh, batch of work. 689 00:39:41,085 --> 00:39:41,355 It's. 690 00:39:42,060 --> 00:39:46,379 It's gonna another person, whether you're a 50 person managed services 691 00:39:46,379 --> 00:39:51,540 firm, or a 50,000 person managed services firm, then it becomes something where 692 00:39:51,540 --> 00:39:56,069 the barriers to entry are low and you could have others play through. 693 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,839 But I do feel that, you know, just like the PWCs are so 694 00:40:00,990 --> 00:40:02,460 large that you know the big. 695 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,230 Big four or big, um, you know, could you see a roll up of managed 696 00:40:07,230 --> 00:40:11,910 services organizations where you end up with, uh, you know, uh, some of 697 00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:16,050 those consolidating in such a way that they do actually leverage scale 698 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,010 even if scaling isn't perfect and there is a, a labor component to it. 699 00:40:21,404 --> 00:40:21,855 Yeah. 700 00:40:21,855 --> 00:40:26,384 I, man, I, I really feel like the liberalization movement is going 701 00:40:26,384 --> 00:40:28,544 to get traction here in the us. 702 00:40:28,575 --> 00:40:28,634 Yeah. 703 00:40:29,055 --> 00:40:32,924 You know, we've, we've seen some capitulation like in Utah with their 704 00:40:32,924 --> 00:40:36,134 sandbox, Arizona is still going strong. 705 00:40:36,734 --> 00:40:41,984 Um, I feel like that is an inevitability and there's still 706 00:40:41,984 --> 00:40:44,085 a lot of resistance to it today. 707 00:40:44,565 --> 00:40:48,194 I actually think that will shift as well, because. 708 00:40:49,335 --> 00:40:55,005 As, as firms have to invest more in tech, both in people, in, you know, the 709 00:40:55,005 --> 00:40:59,265 technology and infrastructure itself, they're going to need to be able to pull. 710 00:41:00,314 --> 00:41:04,634 Talent from the Silicon Valley, you know, the Amazons and the Metas of the world. 711 00:41:04,904 --> 00:41:10,064 How do you do that in a, in a, in a world where stock options are, are customary? 712 00:41:10,125 --> 00:41:10,245 Yeah. 713 00:41:10,245 --> 00:41:15,015 And you can't, you can't, you can't give stock options, um, 714 00:41:15,044 --> 00:41:16,710 to a non-lawyer in a law firm. 715 00:41:17,479 --> 00:41:20,479 So there has to, I mean, there's ways to, you know, phantom equity and the, 716 00:41:21,049 --> 00:41:22,250 you know, things that you can do. 717 00:41:22,250 --> 00:41:26,870 But, um, I think that's a key limitation to the, the partnership model and, 718 00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:28,729 and why things will be liberalized. 719 00:41:28,939 --> 00:41:33,229 And then the investment mechanism, the, the MSO is, it's, it's kind 720 00:41:33,229 --> 00:41:38,120 of messy in how they, um, the governance model that they use to 721 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,504 protect their investment and what. 722 00:41:40,125 --> 00:41:44,325 Goes way in the practice side versus the, so I don't know. 723 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,895 I I, it, it feels like, what's your take on, I mean, 'cause 724 00:41:47,895 --> 00:41:48,975 this has already happened. 725 00:41:49,245 --> 00:41:54,315 Yeah, it happened almost 20 years ago in the UK with the Legal Services Act 726 00:41:54,675 --> 00:41:57,195 and I don't know when it happened in Australia, but it's happened there. 727 00:41:57,195 --> 00:42:01,305 And no, there's been no massive breach of. 728 00:42:01,980 --> 00:42:02,970 Responsibility. 729 00:42:02,970 --> 00:42:05,040 There's been some bumps in the roads, but there's been bumps 730 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,960 in the roads here too, right? 731 00:42:07,230 --> 00:42:11,460 I think with ai, some of the question is gonna be what, what is the goal of 732 00:42:11,460 --> 00:42:13,950 regulation and why did it exist before? 733 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,030 Uh, which might be uncomfortable in some situations for, you know, the, 734 00:42:18,030 --> 00:42:21,120 the legal industry to look and say, why did we require independence? 735 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:22,680 Why did we do all these things? 736 00:42:23,275 --> 00:42:25,705 And I think. 737 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,960 I keep coming back to the DNA of innovation in America. 738 00:42:31,290 --> 00:42:36,300 You know, we have been an act first, regulate second, you know, type of, 739 00:42:36,420 --> 00:42:39,120 um, country and mentality for forever. 740 00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:43,230 Um, whether that was, you know, Rockefeller getting blocked 741 00:42:43,230 --> 00:42:43,975 from being able to ship. 742 00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:49,500 Kerosene and oil, you know, to his refineries or to the destinations. 743 00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:53,310 And he just started building pipelines, you know, uh, no, no 744 00:42:53,310 --> 00:42:54,750 consideration of anything else. 745 00:42:54,750 --> 00:42:56,310 And then regulation comes later. 746 00:42:56,550 --> 00:43:00,420 Or if it's, you know, more recently with Uber, you know, Uber didn't 747 00:43:00,420 --> 00:43:03,780 stop and wait and raise their hand and say, Hey, can we have permission 748 00:43:03,780 --> 00:43:05,395 to, you know, like pick up people. 749 00:43:06,355 --> 00:43:09,145 In New York City, it, it kind of competes with the taxi 750 00:43:09,145 --> 00:43:10,405 medallion system or whatever. 751 00:43:10,405 --> 00:43:11,665 No, they just went and did it. 752 00:43:12,115 --> 00:43:15,895 And, you know, when there was a groundswell of popular, you know, 753 00:43:15,895 --> 00:43:20,665 adoption and approval of the service, you know, the regulators had to 754 00:43:20,665 --> 00:43:22,645 respond and they were being reactive. 755 00:43:22,705 --> 00:43:24,475 And I think that's gonna be the way it's gonna be. 756 00:43:24,475 --> 00:43:27,370 Even with, with these sorts of changes with DPL. 757 00:43:27,930 --> 00:43:30,120 And, you know, more, more broadly. 758 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,820 So I think that's the, the big factor to me that's gonna 759 00:43:33,270 --> 00:43:35,070 cause this to be teased out. 760 00:43:35,070 --> 00:43:38,580 And then, you know, law firms are gonna have that, you know, that, 761 00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:43,320 that challenge of managed services or corporations doing things. 762 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,670 And there's gonna have to be a little bit more thought on what is legal 763 00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:50,100 advice, what is the appropriate way to. 764 00:43:51,570 --> 00:43:55,530 To manage and organize, to be able to take advantage of capital, to 765 00:43:55,530 --> 00:43:59,760 be able to separate things out that are going to be easily substituted 766 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,080 with technology and where is the legal advice that really needs to be 767 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,690 protected and is distinctly human. 768 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:08,340 Yeah. 769 00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:09,900 You know what's interesting is. 770 00:44:10,935 --> 00:44:17,835 Europe is largely in the uk, are largely regulation first and they've, they 771 00:44:17,835 --> 00:44:19,875 liberalized, uh, the legal market. 772 00:44:19,875 --> 00:44:19,935 Yeah. 773 00:44:20,115 --> 00:44:21,315 Almost 20 years ago. 774 00:44:21,645 --> 00:44:21,915 Right? 775 00:44:22,755 --> 00:44:27,105 So why are we still holding on to this antiquated model? 776 00:44:27,945 --> 00:44:30,675 Um, yeah, it's a head scratcher. 777 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,350 I mean, I have to be careful 'cause I'm looking at this more from the systems 778 00:44:34,350 --> 00:44:35,820 perspective because I'm not a lawyer. 779 00:44:35,820 --> 00:44:35,910 Mm-hmm. 780 00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:40,320 But just trying to look at it and understand I, you know, I look at it 781 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,650 and say, there's pressures here that are gonna push this over the edge. 782 00:44:43,650 --> 00:44:49,110 And, and it'll probably be more about non-enforcement, except in areas 783 00:44:49,110 --> 00:44:52,590 where there are a clear, you know, if somebody's misrepresenting themselves and 784 00:44:52,590 --> 00:44:54,420 saying, Hey, I'm an attorney, trust me. 785 00:44:54,780 --> 00:44:59,040 Um, you know, those things will continue to be clearly out of bounds. 786 00:44:59,759 --> 00:45:02,490 But I think that we're gonna have to figure out where's the steady 787 00:45:02,490 --> 00:45:05,910 state and let's supply and demand and creativity and innovation. 788 00:45:06,330 --> 00:45:09,900 Figure out where the edges are and then regulate around those new edges. 789 00:45:10,770 --> 00:45:11,220 Yeah. 790 00:45:11,250 --> 00:45:11,580 Okay. 791 00:45:11,580 --> 00:45:14,009 Well, you said something, we're almost outta time, but I wanted 792 00:45:14,009 --> 00:45:18,330 to touch on this one last topic, which is value-based pricing. 793 00:45:18,330 --> 00:45:19,950 And you said supply and demand and mm-hmm. 794 00:45:20,190 --> 00:45:23,130 Uh, there's a relationship there that I think doesn't get talked about enough. 795 00:45:23,730 --> 00:45:25,200 You know, I've, I've, I've heard it. 796 00:45:25,815 --> 00:45:29,775 Time and time again that value-based pricing is the answer to this 797 00:45:30,525 --> 00:45:35,325 AI conundrum and like that's not the end of the conversation. 798 00:45:35,325 --> 00:45:37,065 That's the beginning of the conversation. 799 00:45:37,335 --> 00:45:37,425 Sure. 800 00:45:37,425 --> 00:45:39,570 Because actually value-based pricing is still. 801 00:45:40,365 --> 00:45:42,645 Subject to the laws of supply and demand. 802 00:45:42,915 --> 00:45:46,694 In other words, you can't say, well, I this, you know, I, I've 803 00:45:46,694 --> 00:45:49,334 used this example in the podcast before, but I think it's a good one. 804 00:45:49,725 --> 00:45:54,584 I had a, uh, I had a leak in a sewer pipe in a wall in my basement, and 805 00:45:54,944 --> 00:46:00,705 the plumbing company came out and gave me a quote, a flat fee to fix it. 806 00:46:01,004 --> 00:46:01,814 And it was about. 807 00:46:02,205 --> 00:46:06,734 I don't know, $2,500 and they did that. 808 00:46:06,825 --> 00:46:12,314 I'm assuming based on a cost calculation and some sort of margin that they had 809 00:46:12,314 --> 00:46:17,625 built in, at no time did they say, well, you know, the value of this sewer pipe 810 00:46:17,625 --> 00:46:22,350 not leaking into your basement is worth $40,000, so I'm gonna charge you 10. 811 00:46:23,295 --> 00:46:26,235 The reason that they didn't do that is because they know I'll pick up the phone 812 00:46:26,235 --> 00:46:30,735 and call another plumber who'll come out and give me a more reasonable approach. 813 00:46:30,735 --> 00:46:31,035 Right? 814 00:46:31,035 --> 00:46:38,565 So we can't just like, as, uh, try to attack, get fi fixated on a percentage 815 00:46:38,565 --> 00:46:41,925 of the value delivered because you still have, we still have the 816 00:46:41,925 --> 00:46:44,565 competitive dynamics in the marketplace. 817 00:46:44,925 --> 00:46:45,465 So, I don't know. 818 00:46:45,465 --> 00:46:49,395 What is your, what are your thoughts on value-based pricing 819 00:46:49,425 --> 00:46:51,735 and how we go about attacking that? 820 00:46:52,795 --> 00:46:57,464 I. I would add one thing to your analogy, which is the do it yourself angle, which 821 00:46:57,464 --> 00:47:01,154 if you had the tools and you were willing to go out and, you know, get the right 822 00:47:01,154 --> 00:47:05,805 acetylene, blow torch and you knew how to do things, that's another substitute. 823 00:47:06,345 --> 00:47:10,904 I think of things from, uh, Michael Porter, who was a Harvard professor. 824 00:47:10,904 --> 00:47:15,645 Uh, and he had a, a model called Porter's Model, which basically looked at the basic 825 00:47:15,825 --> 00:47:21,794 relative power of, of suppliers and you know, and the buying power of the buyers. 826 00:47:22,125 --> 00:47:22,694 And then. 827 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,410 One of the key things with new entrance into the market and then substitutes. 828 00:47:26,410 --> 00:47:31,660 So I look at this and say a lot of this is going to be driven from a cost basis 829 00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:34,000 when a corporation can do work in-house. 830 00:47:34,300 --> 00:47:38,680 So if you can do it yourself in-house and do that reliably, 831 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,300 and it's not a distraction that undermines value-based pricing, um. 832 00:47:43,795 --> 00:47:46,855 I think another angle on it, because I think one of the best areas where 833 00:47:46,855 --> 00:47:51,565 there is value-based pricing is, you know, going to a, uh, a white shoe 834 00:47:51,565 --> 00:47:56,305 law firm or a, you know, a big law firm to do a big m and a transaction. 835 00:47:56,755 --> 00:47:59,725 Nobody cares what the expense was. 836 00:47:59,725 --> 00:48:04,705 If it's within a benchmark, uh, for the actual legal fees to complete the 837 00:48:04,705 --> 00:48:09,385 acquisition of a company, they just wanna know that the acquisition was successful 838 00:48:09,385 --> 00:48:10,885 and that it didn't get screwed up. 839 00:48:11,940 --> 00:48:15,210 Concerned about, well, we, we spent too much money here and went over budget. 840 00:48:15,630 --> 00:48:19,380 Um, and one of the reasons is because that's the value is insurance. 841 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,010 You know, you, you've got the best minds working on this to make sure 842 00:48:23,010 --> 00:48:24,960 that the deal doesn't go sideways. 843 00:48:25,290 --> 00:48:28,710 Um, my question is what if technology. 844 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:34,380 Go through and provide a better demonstrable outcome where, or a 845 00:48:34,380 --> 00:48:38,880 transaction where you end up with, you know, fewer holdbacks, um, 846 00:48:39,090 --> 00:48:43,500 better, more sound due diligence than what you can get from a big law. 847 00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:45,690 Does that take away the insurance aspect? 848 00:48:45,690 --> 00:48:49,410 And then all of a sudden there's a different competition 849 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,660 for what is defined as value. 850 00:48:51,660 --> 00:48:55,920 And, you know, it becomes the standard of what a technology enabled. 851 00:48:56,270 --> 00:49:00,500 Firm can do that's more effective than just the, you know, the brand 852 00:49:00,500 --> 00:49:02,090 name that you're willing to pay for. 853 00:49:03,170 --> 00:49:07,490 Yeah, that's, that's a really good point about the kind of the DIY and how 854 00:49:07,490 --> 00:49:16,250 that relates also to the pricing model, that viability in the marketplace. 855 00:49:16,250 --> 00:49:16,610 Yeah, right. 856 00:49:16,610 --> 00:49:23,970 It's, it's how much, how much cost or margin is a. Buyer willing to 857 00:49:23,970 --> 00:49:27,780 accept before they decide to pull the work in-house and deal with 858 00:49:27,780 --> 00:49:29,850 all the inefficiencies, right? 859 00:49:29,850 --> 00:49:33,540 If you're Coca-Cola or Bank of America, your core competency is 860 00:49:33,540 --> 00:49:36,450 not delivering legal work, right? 861 00:49:36,540 --> 00:49:41,820 Um, so you're going to be less effective than somebody whose sole 862 00:49:41,820 --> 00:49:47,130 focus is that, but when the pain, there is a threshold where the pain 863 00:49:47,130 --> 00:49:50,220 gets exceeds, you're gonna deal with. 864 00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:53,490 Inefficiencies of doing the work inhouse. 865 00:49:53,490 --> 00:49:54,720 So yeah, that's a really good point. 866 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:55,230 Yeah. 867 00:49:57,150 --> 00:49:57,540 Closing. 868 00:50:04,065 --> 00:50:06,944 They need to manage their risk from a fiduciary perspective. 869 00:50:06,944 --> 00:50:09,795 So they're gonna ask questions about how are you using ai? 870 00:50:09,795 --> 00:50:12,555 What risk are you putting in, introducing to my company? 871 00:50:12,884 --> 00:50:17,415 But in a law firm, answering those questions are kind of giving the roadmap 872 00:50:17,415 --> 00:50:20,535 on the how, uh, how to do it in-house. 873 00:50:20,865 --> 00:50:26,384 And so I do think that a corporation that's maybe very IP intensive and files 874 00:50:26,384 --> 00:50:29,865 a lot of patents, you know, they may want to take more of that work in-house 875 00:50:29,865 --> 00:50:31,634 because it's strategic to what they do. 876 00:50:31,634 --> 00:50:34,455 Whereas another company that's, that's a distraction because 877 00:50:34,455 --> 00:50:37,904 they, they file a patent once in a blue moon and it's bespoke work. 878 00:50:37,904 --> 00:50:40,275 They're just gonna leave that, you know, externally. 879 00:50:40,575 --> 00:50:42,765 So I think you're gonna see some patterns like that where. 880 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,339 You know, as more work gets automated and the processes are figured out by the law 881 00:50:47,339 --> 00:50:52,259 firms and by the vendors like Harvey, Lara and others, you're going to see some of 882 00:50:52,259 --> 00:50:58,620 that work then move in-house is, do you, do you feel like some of these technology 883 00:50:59,190 --> 00:51:05,580 platforms that could be a, a Trojan horse essentially, where, you know, um. 884 00:51:06,285 --> 00:51:11,295 They develop the know-how and the, and the capabilities to deliver legal, legal 885 00:51:11,295 --> 00:51:16,695 work and end up, I mean, the valuations certainly point to, they almost have 886 00:51:16,695 --> 00:51:18,465 to do that to make investors ha Yeah. 887 00:51:18,465 --> 00:51:22,965 They have to displace law firm revenue to make their their investors. 888 00:51:23,415 --> 00:51:25,395 Hole on those valuations. 889 00:51:25,395 --> 00:51:28,365 Yeah, I think it would be foolish not to at least go through the mental 890 00:51:28,365 --> 00:51:30,435 exercise of are they Trojan horses? 891 00:51:30,435 --> 00:51:32,265 And I'll give OpenAI as an example. 892 00:51:32,685 --> 00:51:36,134 I use OpenAI, you know, for my contracting. 893 00:51:36,585 --> 00:51:40,035 And you know, I mean, I'll use a lawyer if I really need to, but 894 00:51:40,305 --> 00:51:44,265 OpenAI chat, GBT will come back and tell me, well, this is an unfair. 895 00:51:44,685 --> 00:51:45,375 Agreement. 896 00:51:45,465 --> 00:51:46,815 These are the one-sided areas. 897 00:51:46,815 --> 00:51:48,375 It will redline the areas. 898 00:51:48,375 --> 00:51:52,575 It will explain to me the legal issues and why it's important to me, and it 899 00:51:52,575 --> 00:51:59,175 will also suggest reasons and ways to go about negotiating those, those changes 900 00:51:59,175 --> 00:52:00,915 so that I can achieve a better outcome. 901 00:52:01,370 --> 00:52:06,440 I've never had a lawyer do that in-house or in my personal world, do that. 902 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,890 And I think that the point there is, is that by being in the middle and 903 00:52:09,890 --> 00:52:13,100 having that big picture, you can grab the best practices from all these 904 00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:16,850 different areas to make something that's actually better, um, because 905 00:52:16,850 --> 00:52:18,710 you've got a broader viewpoint. 906 00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:21,920 So if Harvey and Lara are thinking about how to serve corporates, 907 00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,220 which they're, um, I would think that they're going to know those 908 00:52:25,220 --> 00:52:27,020 things and be able to, to take that. 909 00:52:27,385 --> 00:52:29,995 You know, that knowledge and build something that might actually be 910 00:52:30,235 --> 00:52:33,745 better and more powerful than, you know, the individual firms that 911 00:52:33,745 --> 00:52:35,125 think they've got their secret sauce. 912 00:52:35,125 --> 00:52:37,315 It's really worked very well for them for a long time. 913 00:52:38,275 --> 00:52:39,145 That's a really good point. 914 00:52:39,685 --> 00:52:40,825 Well, we'll have to leave it there. 915 00:52:40,825 --> 00:52:42,235 It was a great conversation, Ken. 916 00:52:42,235 --> 00:52:45,655 I knew it would be, um, you've been around the industry a long 917 00:52:45,655 --> 00:52:48,835 time and, and have just a ton of great thought, so I appreciate. 918 00:52:49,455 --> 00:52:52,904 Spending a little time with us, how do people find more, more about kind of what 919 00:52:52,904 --> 00:52:55,185 you do and, and, and that sort of stuff? 920 00:52:55,245 --> 00:52:55,575 Sure. 921 00:52:55,575 --> 00:52:59,685 So, uh, Ken Crutchfield on LinkedIn, uh, spring forward 922 00:52:59,685 --> 00:53:02,234 consulting.com is my website. 923 00:53:02,234 --> 00:53:03,404 You can find me there. 924 00:53:03,795 --> 00:53:09,524 Um, but I also do articles for Bob Ambrogi and Law Next and on Above the Law. 925 00:53:09,524 --> 00:53:13,004 So those are other areas that you can follow me and, and see, uh, 926 00:53:13,004 --> 00:53:14,475 what I'm writing and thinking about. 927 00:53:15,405 --> 00:53:16,875 But thank you so much for having me, Ted. 928 00:53:16,875 --> 00:53:18,075 This was a great conversation. 929 00:53:18,075 --> 00:53:21,285 Really enjoyed it, loved the, the, the flow and the ability to just 930 00:53:21,285 --> 00:53:22,575 kind of riff off of each other. 931 00:53:23,175 --> 00:53:23,715 Totally. 932 00:53:23,715 --> 00:53:23,955 Yeah. 933 00:53:23,955 --> 00:53:26,625 It was, it was, it was a, it was a good time, for sure. 934 00:53:27,045 --> 00:53:29,655 Alright, uh, Ken, well I appreciate your time and look forward to 935 00:53:29,655 --> 00:53:30,945 seeing you at the next event. 936 00:53:31,245 --> 00:53:32,385 Alright, very good. 937 00:53:32,475 --> 00:53:32,895 Take care. 938 00:53:33,705 --> 00:53:34,845 Alright, bye-bye bye. 939 00:53:34,935 --> 00:53:37,185 Thanks for listening to Legal Innovation Spotlight. 940 00:53:37,725 --> 00:53:41,205 If you found value in this chat, hit the subscribe button to be notified 941 00:53:41,205 --> 00:53:42,705 when we release new episodes. 942 00:53:43,185 --> 00:53:45,884 We'd also really appreciate it if you could take a moment to rate 943 00:53:45,884 --> 00:53:48,555 us and leave us a review wherever you're listening right now. 944 00:53:49,095 --> 00:53:51,825 Your feedback helps us provide you with top-notch content. 00:00:02,100 Mr. Crushfield, how are you this afternoon? 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:03,270 I'm doing wonderful. 3 00:00:03,270 --> 00:00:04,110 How are you, Ted? 4 00:00:04,740 --> 00:00:05,640 I'm doing great. 5 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:06,660 I'm doing great. 6 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:09,300 We're, uh, we're just digging out of the snow here. 7 00:00:09,690 --> 00:00:14,700 This is, um, late January and I think the whole country had some, some weather, 8 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:17,940 but, uh, you're in sunny Florida, correct? 9 00:00:18,005 --> 00:00:18,810 I, I did. 10 00:00:18,810 --> 00:00:22,200 We dodged, my wife and I decided to test the Snowbirding thing with 11 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,300 the independent advisory work, so we bailed out about a week ago and 12 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:29,370 came down to Lauderdale and it's. 13 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:30,540 Great weather. 14 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:35,460 It was 84 yesterday while everybody was getting pummeled and uh, you know, a 15 00:00:35,460 --> 00:00:37,110 little cooler today, but I'll take it. 16 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:38,970 Good for you man. 17 00:00:38,970 --> 00:00:39,690 Good for you. 18 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,769 Um, well let's, uh, let's, let's get you introduced. 19 00:00:43,769 --> 00:00:47,099 Um, you and I have have bumped into each other throughout the years. 20 00:00:47,099 --> 00:00:49,950 We had a great conversation at TLTF and I was like, man, we gotta get 21 00:00:49,950 --> 00:00:53,460 you on the podcast 'cause you're a wealth of knowledge in this space. 22 00:00:53,460 --> 00:00:57,480 So, um, why don't you tell everybody who you are, what you do, where you do it. 23 00:00:57,885 --> 00:00:58,095 Sure. 24 00:00:58,095 --> 00:00:58,905 So I'm, I'm Ken. 25 00:00:58,905 --> 00:01:01,964 I live in Alexandria, Virginia right now, right outside of dc. 26 00:01:02,324 --> 00:01:04,394 I am an independent advisor. 27 00:01:04,394 --> 00:01:08,804 I work with legal tech startups, uh, helping advise them on product market 28 00:01:08,804 --> 00:01:14,685 fit, so product strategy, market strategy, basically how to, uh, raise money 29 00:01:14,685 --> 00:01:17,085 and then how to scale and make money. 30 00:01:17,414 --> 00:01:18,945 Those are the, the core things I do. 31 00:01:18,945 --> 00:01:22,335 I also work with a few other, you know, uh, larger corporations too. 32 00:01:22,725 --> 00:01:26,445 Uh, but I've been independent since June when I left Walters Klu. 33 00:01:26,990 --> 00:01:33,470 I've been around the market in since 1982, so coming up on 44 years, 34 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,330 um, when I first stumbled into LexiNexis back in Dayton, Ohio as 35 00:01:38,330 --> 00:01:40,039 I was, uh, looking for internships. 36 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,110 So you've been around a while? 37 00:01:42,410 --> 00:01:42,890 Yes. 38 00:01:43,515 --> 00:01:49,244 You've seen a lot of, uh, you've seen a lot of cycles and, um, I've been around, 39 00:01:49,574 --> 00:01:52,485 uh, less than half of that in legal. 40 00:01:52,755 --> 00:01:57,074 Um, I got started in right around the time of the Great Recession, which was 41 00:01:57,074 --> 00:02:01,130 a hell of a time to start working with law firms, but it all worked out, so Wow. 42 00:02:01,149 --> 00:02:01,369 Uh. 43 00:02:02,009 --> 00:02:02,759 Made it through. 44 00:02:03,690 --> 00:02:07,800 Um, well, you and I had a conversation in, in Austin. 45 00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:08,549 Mm-hmm. 46 00:02:08,789 --> 00:02:14,700 And I think we, we shared some common beliefs and, you know, one of the 47 00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:16,230 things that, that we talked about. 48 00:02:17,535 --> 00:02:20,385 Was, you know, as part of this transformation. 49 00:02:20,775 --> 00:02:21,614 I see. 50 00:02:21,795 --> 00:02:25,635 So we have, uh, I think we have 50 4:00 AM law clients to date. 51 00:02:25,635 --> 00:02:29,475 So we, one out of every 4:00 AM law 200 firms use us. 52 00:02:30,045 --> 00:02:35,415 And so we get across, but I've worked with more than half, half the AM law probably. 53 00:02:36,540 --> 00:02:39,030 Approaching three quarters at this point, but Right. 54 00:02:39,239 --> 00:02:43,530 I've seen a good cross-sectional view of inside law firms, how they 55 00:02:43,530 --> 00:02:45,420 operate, what's similar, what's not. 56 00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:51,959 And what I'm seeing now is I'm seeing a kind of a bifurcation of firms 57 00:02:52,019 --> 00:02:59,370 that are kind of going all in and really embracing this opportunity. 58 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:02,399 And some firms that are just stuck. 59 00:03:02,820 --> 00:03:02,910 Mm-hmm. 60 00:03:03,149 --> 00:03:05,070 And the ones that seem stuck. 61 00:03:05,715 --> 00:03:11,084 Seem to be over-indexing on ROI is what it looks like to me. 62 00:03:11,655 --> 00:03:14,745 And I have a theory that I'd love to get your take on. 63 00:03:15,405 --> 00:03:19,515 Um, I think that ROI is a very important concept, right? 64 00:03:19,605 --> 00:03:24,495 Um, they teach us this in business school and investors. 65 00:03:24,930 --> 00:03:29,700 You know, pay close attention to ROI and return on invested capital 66 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:30,930 and, and all these sorts of things. 67 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:41,910 But when you're in a state of disruption over-indexing on ROI and locking down the 68 00:03:41,910 --> 00:03:46,109 pocketbook can be, can set you behind. 69 00:03:46,109 --> 00:03:47,609 And I feel like. 70 00:03:48,329 --> 00:03:49,980 This is what I'd love to get your take on. 71 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:56,489 A lot of the r in ROI return is, is learning some of these firms, 72 00:03:56,519 --> 00:04:01,500 you know, getting out there, trying some things, experimenting, um, 73 00:04:02,459 --> 00:04:08,100 exposing the practice to these new ways of, uh, conducting business. 74 00:04:08,190 --> 00:04:11,940 Um, are you seeing that bifurcation and what is your. 75 00:04:12,990 --> 00:04:16,050 What are, what are your thoughts on, on ROI at this stage in the game? 76 00:04:16,260 --> 00:04:16,469 Yeah. 77 00:04:16,469 --> 00:04:19,529 I think for corporations it makes a lot of sense because better, 78 00:04:19,529 --> 00:04:23,190 faster, cheaper is part of the DNA of of being on a corporation. 79 00:04:23,580 --> 00:04:26,760 Law firms, especially when you're billing by the hour, it's, it's hard 80 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:32,100 to measure ROI, um, because the more effective, the more efficient you are. 81 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:32,790 The. 82 00:04:33,229 --> 00:04:35,719 Less money you might make if you're charging by the hour. 83 00:04:35,719 --> 00:04:40,070 So I view this as a, an issue of competitiveness. 84 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:41,840 How do you stay competitive? 85 00:04:42,140 --> 00:04:45,349 And that, that creates some conundrums that I'm sure we'll talk about a little 86 00:04:45,349 --> 00:04:47,780 later in, in this, uh, in this podcast. 87 00:04:47,780 --> 00:04:51,935 But one of those is, you know, you don't wanna be so far out ahead. 88 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:56,670 Um, you're outside of the herd, but you also don't want to be left behind 89 00:04:56,670 --> 00:05:00,719 and be, you know, left, uh, you know, for the, you don't wanna be the gazelle 90 00:05:00,719 --> 00:05:02,190 that gets, uh, eaten by the lion. 91 00:05:02,430 --> 00:05:06,360 So there is a little bit of this herd mentality where it's really important 92 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,730 to be able to quickly respond. 93 00:05:09,030 --> 00:05:11,670 And one example I I remember hearing was a, um. 94 00:05:12,195 --> 00:05:16,695 Uh, AM 10 firm who was doing a lot of work with machine learning. 95 00:05:16,695 --> 00:05:20,565 They've been doing that for a while, and client asked specifically for a 96 00:05:20,565 --> 00:05:24,015 task to be done that way and the other. 97 00:05:24,750 --> 00:05:29,010 Uh, am law firm that was being evaluated did not have that skillset. 98 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:33,299 So guess who got the business and who didn't and who was calling in to learn 99 00:05:33,299 --> 00:05:35,039 how to do machine learning the next day. 100 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,840 Um, that's the sort of example that I see when I think about ROI. 101 00:05:40,229 --> 00:05:43,799 Um, when you think about you going down a little bit further, maybe into mid 102 00:05:44,580 --> 00:05:50,580 law, I think there are, there, there are some important factors to consider. 103 00:05:51,615 --> 00:05:55,094 Uh, recognizing that you're technology users, law firms should 104 00:05:55,094 --> 00:05:58,844 be technology users as opposed to technology creators in general. 105 00:05:59,265 --> 00:06:03,555 And so from that standpoint, if you have your IT department wanting to go off 106 00:06:03,555 --> 00:06:07,485 and build things that are not necessary, that's not particularly effective. 107 00:06:07,485 --> 00:06:11,205 I think being, uh, prepared to be a fast follower, it is something that is, is an 108 00:06:11,205 --> 00:06:14,055 important part of the DNA of a law firm. 109 00:06:14,055 --> 00:06:16,935 If you're gonna be responsive, especially if you're not one of the largest. 110 00:06:17,925 --> 00:06:19,755 Yeah, well you're speaking my language there. 111 00:06:19,755 --> 00:06:22,035 I talk build versus buy all the time. 112 00:06:22,095 --> 00:06:27,675 In the context of what we do at info dash, which we, we are a legal 113 00:06:27,675 --> 00:06:31,695 intranet and internet provider on the legal intranet side. 114 00:06:31,785 --> 00:06:34,905 We have no competition, um, other than. 115 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,320 Firms wanting to do custom dev. 116 00:06:37,860 --> 00:06:37,950 Mm-hmm. 117 00:06:38,190 --> 00:06:45,210 And I can tell you that nine out of 10 times roughly, this is anecdotal, but 118 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:52,980 I've seen a lot of it in my almost 20 years of helping firms go down this path. 119 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:54,900 It usually ends badly. 120 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:02,220 And where things go sideways is they're able to estimate the initial effort to. 121 00:07:03,030 --> 00:07:06,510 Um, get things up and running a minimum viable product. 122 00:07:06,810 --> 00:07:12,480 Usually not great at that, but like within a, a reasonable margin, 20, 30%. 123 00:07:12,660 --> 00:07:17,505 Sometimes it goes four x I've seen that too, but, um, where, where, 124 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:23,370 but where I think they struggle in evaluating the TCO of doing a 125 00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:26,490 custom project is in the support. 126 00:07:26,940 --> 00:07:31,919 The maintenance, the training, the change management, the enhancements. 127 00:07:32,430 --> 00:07:37,229 And if I can get in front of a firm before they make, before they get pot 128 00:07:37,229 --> 00:07:41,400 committed, I'm usually successful in showing why that doesn't make sense. 129 00:07:42,060 --> 00:07:42,570 Um, but. 130 00:07:43,140 --> 00:07:46,739 Amazingly, and it sounds like you've seen some of that too. 131 00:07:47,130 --> 00:07:52,080 Firms still march down that path all the time, and a lot 132 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,340 of times end up in a ditch. 133 00:07:53,669 --> 00:07:53,969 Right? 134 00:07:54,419 --> 00:07:58,679 I think, I mean, if you're an IT person, you, you want to do things that are 135 00:07:58,679 --> 00:08:03,000 interesting that, uh, advance your resume and advance your experience. 136 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,539 So there is a desire to want to do things yourself, especially 137 00:08:06,539 --> 00:08:07,434 when you look at it and say. 138 00:08:07,950 --> 00:08:11,640 I could do that even though, you know, just like with info dash, if you have 139 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:17,789 54 big wall clients, um, you know, you've done that 54 times for that 140 00:08:17,940 --> 00:08:22,109 segment of the market and you know the support issues, you know, the pitfalls. 141 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,669 Whereas that firm doing it on their own is doing something that's 142 00:08:27,330 --> 00:08:30,840 bespoke to them, not something that's in their core competency. 143 00:08:31,049 --> 00:08:34,409 And while they may be able to do it, it's probably a bit of a distraction, 144 00:08:34,439 --> 00:08:36,120 even if they are successful. 145 00:08:36,870 --> 00:08:37,169 Yeah. 146 00:08:37,169 --> 00:08:39,989 You know, I always go back to what is the highest and best use 147 00:08:39,989 --> 00:08:41,729 of your technology team's time. 148 00:08:41,969 --> 00:08:42,059 Mm-hmm. 149 00:08:42,299 --> 00:08:46,680 I would argue that rebuilding off the shelf tools is near the bottom 150 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:52,410 of that list, and what's at the top of that list are things that you can 151 00:08:52,410 --> 00:08:56,790 do to differentiate, to do something different than your competition. 152 00:08:57,089 --> 00:09:00,900 But rebuilding off the shelf tools, it's never cheaper ever. 153 00:09:00,900 --> 00:09:03,540 I mean, if you're gonna build a like for like. 154 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:07,350 It's just the economics aren't there, right? 155 00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:08,850 It doesn't, it doesn't make sense. 156 00:09:08,850 --> 00:09:12,510 So unless you're trying to do something totally unique, which in the in internet 157 00:09:12,510 --> 00:09:16,950 next rent world, like there's not, the universe is small, it's solved. 158 00:09:16,950 --> 00:09:18,240 We've solved these problems. 159 00:09:18,810 --> 00:09:24,810 Um, but yeah, I still see, I still see firms go down that path and you know, 160 00:09:24,810 --> 00:09:28,620 I always try and flag, Hey, is this the highest and best use of your time? 161 00:09:29,250 --> 00:09:30,780 Your, your tech team's time? 162 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:33,840 And like what happens when people leave because. 163 00:09:34,245 --> 00:09:36,105 It's not just law firms that struggle with this. 164 00:09:36,105 --> 00:09:40,334 I mean, even us as a technology company, keeping things fully 165 00:09:40,334 --> 00:09:46,365 documented, you know, to current state is documentation is always lagging. 166 00:09:46,425 --> 00:09:46,605 Right. 167 00:09:47,295 --> 00:09:52,214 It's a, it's a juggling act with resources as to how much you allocate towards 168 00:09:52,214 --> 00:09:54,615 what, but law firms really struggle. 169 00:09:54,615 --> 00:09:57,915 And then somebody key leaves and, you know, the, the firm gets left holding 170 00:09:57,915 --> 00:10:02,625 the bag or something breaks and, um, well, and documentation's overhead. 171 00:10:03,285 --> 00:10:04,814 Documentation is overhead. 172 00:10:04,845 --> 00:10:07,725 It's something that isn't necessarily valued in, you 173 00:10:07,725 --> 00:10:09,314 know, by clients of a law firm. 174 00:10:09,375 --> 00:10:14,535 Anything that is, you know, not billable or not directly tied to 175 00:10:14,535 --> 00:10:17,235 billable work, that that becomes something that gets traded off. 176 00:10:17,235 --> 00:10:20,324 If push comes shove, hundred percent, and you know. 177 00:10:21,915 --> 00:10:26,055 Something else you and I talked about is the partnership model and 178 00:10:26,055 --> 00:10:31,515 the cash ba in the cash basis, which most not all AmLaw firms operate. 179 00:10:31,515 --> 00:10:35,115 There are some very big firms at the top of the AmLaw that, uh, are 180 00:10:35,115 --> 00:10:40,215 on an accrual basis, which shocked me honestly, because that's a. 181 00:10:41,115 --> 00:10:45,344 Interesting proposition when, you know, there are, there are pretty 182 00:10:45,555 --> 00:10:51,885 massive tax implications to pay taxes on work that has been delivered 183 00:10:51,885 --> 00:10:53,235 and invoiced but hasn't been. 184 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:53,520 Mm-hmm. 185 00:10:53,655 --> 00:10:55,064 The cash hasn't been collected. 186 00:10:55,515 --> 00:10:55,724 Right. 187 00:10:55,724 --> 00:10:58,275 Um, it evens out over the years. 188 00:10:58,334 --> 00:10:58,724 Right. 189 00:10:58,730 --> 00:11:05,145 Um, things that are, um, cash that hasn't been collected at the end of one year. 190 00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:11,250 Happen the following year, and overall it evens out, but cash basis accounting 191 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,150 and, and the law firm partnership model is really optimized for profit 192 00:11:15,150 --> 00:11:22,650 taking and it makes the whole concept of r and d and allocating capital to 193 00:11:22,650 --> 00:11:24,600 that, to those efforts a struggle. 194 00:11:24,605 --> 00:11:25,080 Do, do you agree? 195 00:11:26,130 --> 00:11:26,550 Yes. 196 00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:29,940 I, I think that, that the partnership model is, is basically 197 00:11:29,940 --> 00:11:31,350 designed to pass through. 198 00:11:31,845 --> 00:11:36,285 Uh, the profits to the partners every year, and then they pay the taxes on it. 199 00:11:36,285 --> 00:11:40,185 So that's part of the, you know, the interesting challenge, I think with some 200 00:11:40,185 --> 00:11:45,345 of these new AI native law firms that are starting up, thinking about how to 201 00:11:45,345 --> 00:11:50,475 capitalize differently instead of being a partnership, but more so corporation 202 00:11:50,475 --> 00:11:53,595 and having a value on the shares of. 203 00:11:54,030 --> 00:11:59,010 Stock, if you will, in the, uh, in the law firm is an interesting way 204 00:11:59,010 --> 00:12:03,810 because you can, you can then ask, the firm grows value those shares, 205 00:12:03,810 --> 00:12:07,829 and if somebody ends up exiting, they sell their shares and they sell 206 00:12:07,829 --> 00:12:11,099 them at whatever the valuation is or whatever the rules of the corporation 207 00:12:11,099 --> 00:12:13,365 are, it gives them incentives to. 208 00:12:13,959 --> 00:12:19,630 Add to the shareholder value, add to the overall value of the organization, and 209 00:12:19,630 --> 00:12:22,209 give some opportunity for profit and exit. 210 00:12:22,569 --> 00:12:25,900 Um, you know, I know one of the biggest challenges of partnerships 211 00:12:25,959 --> 00:12:29,800 in law firms that's, you know, from a practical sense is that the most senior 212 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,720 people in the firm have the strongest say and, uh, the biggest, uh, the 213 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,670 biggest ownership in the partnership. 214 00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:38,260 And they. 215 00:12:38,615 --> 00:12:41,945 Are okay with things changing the day after they leave, you know, 216 00:12:41,945 --> 00:12:43,535 and retire so that you know. 217 00:12:43,565 --> 00:12:46,115 But until then, they don't necessarily want to go through that. 218 00:12:46,115 --> 00:12:48,425 They'd rather just continue to get their profits the way 219 00:12:48,425 --> 00:12:49,655 they have all, all the time. 220 00:12:50,564 --> 00:12:50,985 Yeah. 221 00:12:51,015 --> 00:12:57,015 If, if, if a capital project, if the break even on a capital project extends 222 00:12:57,015 --> 00:13:01,365 beyond a stakeholder's retirement horizon, why would they vote for it? 223 00:13:01,420 --> 00:13:01,770 Right? 224 00:13:01,775 --> 00:13:01,875 Right. 225 00:13:01,935 --> 00:13:03,735 It's, it's only gonna cost them money. 226 00:13:04,155 --> 00:13:11,985 So that is a big challenge that I, I don't know how firms. 227 00:13:12,390 --> 00:13:17,939 Really dig themselves out of that dynamic because, you know, and another 228 00:13:17,939 --> 00:13:21,750 dynamic related to leadership at law firms is a lot of leaders got 229 00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:23,339 there by being the best at lawyering. 230 00:13:24,510 --> 00:13:24,810 Right. 231 00:13:24,810 --> 00:13:27,510 Or the best at relationships and selling, right? 232 00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:28,230 Yeah. 233 00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:33,089 Which I would in include in the, the broader bucket of lawyering, right? 234 00:13:33,089 --> 00:13:33,180 Yes. 235 00:13:33,180 --> 00:13:36,360 Not just delivering the legal work, but yeah, you gotta go sell it and keep the 236 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,060 client happy and all that sort of stuff. 237 00:13:39,089 --> 00:13:39,990 And, um. 238 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,600 That doesn't always make you the best leader. 239 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:43,830 Right, right. 240 00:13:43,980 --> 00:13:49,320 Um, so yeah, like what do you see as the, the future state? 241 00:13:50,190 --> 00:13:54,120 Um, is this model sustainable, a partnership model, cash basis? 242 00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:57,270 You know, people at the top of the. 243 00:13:58,349 --> 00:14:03,420 Like seniority spectrum, calling the shots with a retirement horizon. 244 00:14:03,420 --> 00:14:07,949 Very much insight like, I dunno, is this a sustainable model in this next, in 245 00:14:07,949 --> 00:14:09,719 this future state we're headed towards? 246 00:14:09,930 --> 00:14:12,180 I, you know, I've been thinking about things, 'cause I've got 247 00:14:12,180 --> 00:14:13,260 an engineering background. 248 00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:17,010 I've been thinking about a lot of this because it's so unpredictable right 249 00:14:17,010 --> 00:14:21,209 now in terms of systems analysis and looking at the, the broader system. 250 00:14:21,209 --> 00:14:24,599 So I do believe that there are some things that are going to change. 251 00:14:24,965 --> 00:14:27,815 You know, interpretation of unauthorized practice of law. 252 00:14:28,115 --> 00:14:30,305 I think that's an area that that could give. 253 00:14:30,305 --> 00:14:35,345 And if that gives, that changes a lot in terms of what the viable structures 254 00:14:35,345 --> 00:14:37,145 are going to look like for law firms. 255 00:14:37,445 --> 00:14:40,535 I also think that managed services organizations are going 256 00:14:40,535 --> 00:14:42,905 to be, you know, more prominent. 257 00:14:42,965 --> 00:14:46,745 And one of the areas that I think that it needs to be teased out a little 258 00:14:46,745 --> 00:14:52,835 bit more is the line between advice, you know, and legal information. 259 00:14:53,105 --> 00:14:53,675 I think. 260 00:14:54,030 --> 00:14:56,790 You know, the medical profession used to go to a doctor, you 261 00:14:56,790 --> 00:14:59,370 know, or a doctor would make house calls even back in the day. 262 00:14:59,430 --> 00:15:01,680 And there wasn't a lot of specialization. 263 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,860 There wasn't a lot of, um, discerning what. 264 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,040 Really you needed medical advice for, and I think those 265 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,140 analogies play into the law too. 266 00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:14,219 Uh, you have x-ray technicians that will make sure that your 267 00:15:14,219 --> 00:15:15,630 x-ray was taken properly. 268 00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:17,969 Then you have a different technician that reviews the 269 00:15:17,969 --> 00:15:19,439 outcome of that and the output. 270 00:15:19,439 --> 00:15:22,829 You have physician's assistants that can now prescribe medicine. 271 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:24,089 There's like one. 272 00:15:24,525 --> 00:15:28,155 1 million lawyers, or one, one in 17 healthcare workers 273 00:15:28,155 --> 00:15:29,265 is actually a doctor now. 274 00:15:29,715 --> 00:15:33,645 Um, so there's a very small percentage of those, and they're very 275 00:15:33,645 --> 00:15:37,785 specialized doing work, you know, on, you know, brain surgery versus, 276 00:15:38,115 --> 00:15:39,555 you know, being a pediatrician. 277 00:15:39,735 --> 00:15:43,455 So there's a broad, you know, spectrum of specialization there. 278 00:15:43,725 --> 00:15:46,905 And I don't think that law has done that in the same way. 279 00:15:47,445 --> 00:15:48,525 And if anything. 280 00:15:49,439 --> 00:15:54,060 The, the regulations around, you know, a, b, a five, four and five five, and 281 00:15:54,060 --> 00:15:58,500 as they've been deployed, you know, by state Supreme Courts that has kind of 282 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:03,510 created these, these barriers where you don't even get close to the edge of legal 283 00:16:03,510 --> 00:16:08,100 advice versus legal information to the point that like individual consumers, 284 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:09,630 how would they know what the law is? 285 00:16:09,870 --> 00:16:14,640 Um, you know, unless they had access to the, the stack of books that 286 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,015 are on the bookshelf at the law firm and knew how to read those. 287 00:16:18,705 --> 00:16:21,225 You know, so my first entrepreneurial venture, I 288 00:16:21,225 --> 00:16:22,875 started a collection agency, okay. 289 00:16:22,875 --> 00:16:25,965 Before I was old enough to drink 1993. 290 00:16:26,565 --> 00:16:31,545 And, uh, how it started was my mom owned, uh, a restaurant in downtown 291 00:16:31,545 --> 00:16:33,015 Raleigh, and during the day. 292 00:16:34,090 --> 00:16:37,900 She was from Philadelphia, so we had a hogie shop and I was delivery, 293 00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:41,650 boy, I used to deliver all to the state employees during the day. 294 00:16:41,650 --> 00:16:46,270 And then at night there's probably like six, seven colleges in Raleigh, uh, NC 295 00:16:46,270 --> 00:16:48,760 State, Meredith College, Shaw University. 296 00:16:49,210 --> 00:16:52,420 Anyway, both of those sets of people. 297 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,070 Kind of live paycheck to paycheck, and they bounce a lot of checks. 298 00:16:56,070 --> 00:16:56,160 Mm-hmm. 299 00:16:56,665 --> 00:17:01,470 So I was a junior at UNC Chapel Hill right down the road, and my mom kind 300 00:17:01,470 --> 00:17:06,300 of put me in charge of collecting these checks and I, I was making money, uh, 301 00:17:06,329 --> 00:17:08,190 doing it, you know, part-time job. 302 00:17:08,190 --> 00:17:10,200 I was making like six, 800 bucks a week. 303 00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:14,610 So I quit school for a year, started this business, and then went back 304 00:17:14,610 --> 00:17:15,810 and finished my degree at night. 305 00:17:16,470 --> 00:17:19,470 But, um, I went and learned all the statutes myself. 306 00:17:19,470 --> 00:17:20,490 I still remember 'em. 307 00:17:20,550 --> 00:17:21,900 Um, uh. 308 00:17:22,349 --> 00:17:27,900 5 21 0.6. So it's a criminal offense in North Carolina to, uh, bounce a check. 309 00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:34,290 And then there's a civil statute, um, 6 21 0.3 that allows for trouble damages. 310 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,940 If you sue somebody in civil court, you can get trouble your damages. 311 00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:39,510 Wow. 312 00:17:39,570 --> 00:17:41,670 The amount, three times the amount of the check. 313 00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:46,560 And, you know, I just kind of figured it out again, had no legal background 314 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,030 and made a successful business. 315 00:17:49,215 --> 00:17:56,415 But yeah, you know, small business people and consumers who aren't as, um, 316 00:17:56,805 --> 00:18:05,265 savvy or determined, it's a struggle to really get, learn, navigate the system. 317 00:18:06,735 --> 00:18:10,605 I think one practical example of that is, I think the first time I really 318 00:18:10,605 --> 00:18:14,445 was involved in creating a playbook for, uh, the company I was working 319 00:18:14,445 --> 00:18:17,235 for on how to negotiate contracts. 320 00:18:17,235 --> 00:18:18,675 And so we, we came up with what. 321 00:18:20,715 --> 00:18:25,245 Template for our contracts because we're getting negotiation pushback in a 322 00:18:25,245 --> 00:18:28,125 number of different areas and how things were one sided shouldn't have been. 323 00:18:28,485 --> 00:18:30,975 And we came up with what's our, what's our fallback and what's our 324 00:18:30,975 --> 00:18:32,595 fallback from there and everything. 325 00:18:32,895 --> 00:18:37,455 And it was a lot of legal input and legal advice at the upfront. 326 00:18:37,725 --> 00:18:39,585 But once you had that document. 327 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,590 You know, a salesperson could go through and navigate through a fair 328 00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:48,120 amount of the negotiation before you needed business advice first. 329 00:18:48,330 --> 00:18:52,350 And then there were a few exceptions where you needed legal advice and 330 00:18:52,350 --> 00:18:55,470 you needed to bring the lawyer back in to, to work through something. 331 00:18:55,470 --> 00:18:59,160 But you know, we even got down to the path of like, okay, when dealing 332 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,640 with limitations of liability, well we'll give on gross negligence. 333 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,440 Pass number three, because most states in New York, which was what we were 334 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,760 contracting in, you can't, you know, you, you have unlimited damages and 335 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,830 unlimited liability for gross negligence. 336 00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:16,620 So it really wasn't a give, but it was optically a give. 337 00:19:16,740 --> 00:19:21,540 And that was part of the, the business strategy that we used based upon that. 338 00:19:21,780 --> 00:19:22,860 And that's a good example. 339 00:19:22,860 --> 00:19:25,890 I think you can have a lawyer involved every step of the way, every 340 00:19:25,890 --> 00:19:27,840 negotiation, which isn't efficient. 341 00:19:28,110 --> 00:19:31,050 Or you can design a process legal. 342 00:19:32,385 --> 00:19:35,955 Let's the business run and then manage the exceptions where you 343 00:19:35,955 --> 00:19:39,855 need the lawyer and the legal advice on the backend when those occur. 344 00:19:40,875 --> 00:19:41,055 Yeah. 345 00:19:41,055 --> 00:19:41,685 Interesting. 346 00:19:41,685 --> 00:19:48,645 You, you brought up, um, a BA model rule five four, which is the, the addresses, 347 00:19:48,645 --> 00:19:55,815 the non-legal ownership that creates a barrier for external capital to 348 00:19:55,875 --> 00:19:58,305 participate in any sort of fee sharing. 349 00:19:58,365 --> 00:20:00,945 And as a result of that. 350 00:20:01,875 --> 00:20:09,524 There are workarounds in place, which are MSOs as an example, and I've 351 00:20:09,524 --> 00:20:13,574 actually seen some of the proposals. 352 00:20:14,175 --> 00:20:17,024 Uh, there's a, they, they fall on a pretty wide spectrum. 353 00:20:17,595 --> 00:20:22,695 Um, I've seen where there is a legitimate MSO being stood up. 354 00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:27,060 Where they take care of many of the back office functions and deliver 355 00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:28,860 some economies of scale around that. 356 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,620 And then they're, they're, that's one end of the spectrum. 357 00:20:31,620 --> 00:20:35,760 The other end of the spectrum, it's just a way for to, to get money 358 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,440 out of the firm for the partners. 359 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:37,530 Right. 360 00:20:37,980 --> 00:20:42,990 And uh, I got, a friend of mine owns a 50 attorney law firm and he 361 00:20:42,990 --> 00:20:46,020 shared this with me and I looked at it, I was like, wow, there's 362 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,050 real, this is purely just a way to. 363 00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:53,460 Um, inject capital and get some participation externally. 364 00:20:53,670 --> 00:20:56,610 I mean, is this a, this seems like a bandaid. 365 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:00,900 Is this a long-term approach we're gonna see here? 366 00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:04,530 I don't have a real crystal ball on this one, but I, I think that, 367 00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:05,765 you know, start with observation. 368 00:21:07,290 --> 00:21:12,240 Intuit and TurboTax is something that people tend to be familiar with as, as 369 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,600 a, uh, a way to prepare your own taxes. 370 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,880 And if you go to A-A-C-P-A to have your taxes done, you're probably using either 371 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,830 a Thomson Reuters, a Walters Klu, or an Intuit professional grade version of 372 00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:27,180 a product that's similar to TurboTax. 373 00:21:27,930 --> 00:21:31,170 Um, they're just using it behind the scenes and so. 374 00:21:31,710 --> 00:21:37,590 The point that I wanna make here is, is that those technologies are interpreting. 375 00:21:38,324 --> 00:21:42,915 Tax law, um, law, tying it in with facts, and then creating a tax return 376 00:21:42,945 --> 00:21:45,824 for compliance because everybody has to comply and pay their taxes. 377 00:21:46,155 --> 00:21:48,465 Um, it's, it's a narrow area. 378 00:21:48,764 --> 00:21:51,195 It's very limited in its regulation. 379 00:21:51,195 --> 00:21:53,715 The IRS requires, um, that. 380 00:21:54,010 --> 00:21:58,810 Any tax software product actually create the, the proper e-file format so it 381 00:21:58,810 --> 00:22:04,060 doesn't get a file, doesn't get rejected, but there's not a lot of regulation on, 382 00:22:04,420 --> 00:22:06,340 you know, tax software companies at all. 383 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,740 And that's something that. 384 00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:14,670 Other industries can do, whether it's manufacturing or you know, medical 385 00:22:14,670 --> 00:22:20,940 profession or or tax, where you can have a third party organization invest 386 00:22:20,940 --> 00:22:25,800 in a vendor solution that can be benefited by all players in the market. 387 00:22:26,460 --> 00:22:28,440 And legally you can't do that. 388 00:22:29,399 --> 00:22:32,790 It's there's, this is why you're getting these areas of bending and working around 389 00:22:32,790 --> 00:22:37,290 right now because ownership capital. 390 00:22:38,719 --> 00:22:41,750 Contribute, all the investors in it are lawyers. 391 00:22:41,959 --> 00:22:43,550 I guess that could theoretically work. 392 00:22:43,820 --> 00:22:49,399 You know, a, a law firm or a corporation that wants to be a vendor can't do it 393 00:22:49,399 --> 00:22:53,090 because they would have to be a law firm and governed by legal rules because they 394 00:22:53,090 --> 00:22:56,360 might be advising, you know, on the law. 395 00:22:56,719 --> 00:22:58,520 And I think that's the, the big issue. 396 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,340 So right now I feel like these are workarounds, but I also think that 397 00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:05,360 there's a fair amount of pressure right now building to, you know. 398 00:23:05,790 --> 00:23:08,645 Uh, adjust the UPL enforcement. 399 00:23:09,824 --> 00:23:14,264 It may be more non-enforcement than it is actual enforcement because so much 400 00:23:14,564 --> 00:23:16,875 is going on, especially with open ai. 401 00:23:16,995 --> 00:23:20,715 I think they just, you know, created open AI medical, and I don't you, 402 00:23:21,044 --> 00:23:25,665 you can use chat GBT to plead a case in court right now and their, you 403 00:23:25,665 --> 00:23:29,290 know, stories on NBC news and other things where, you know, individuals 404 00:23:29,564 --> 00:23:34,094 have done that and, and have won, uh, cases where they're being evicted from 405 00:23:34,094 --> 00:23:35,895 their home and other things like that. 406 00:23:36,275 --> 00:23:38,315 That's a very common thing right now. 407 00:23:38,315 --> 00:23:44,855 And I think when you get that practical usage of technology, it 408 00:23:44,885 --> 00:23:49,475 becomes more of a political issue than a a legal enforcement issue. 409 00:23:49,805 --> 00:23:53,495 And I do think there are legitimate questions of can technology, especially 410 00:23:53,495 --> 00:23:56,435 predictive LLM type technologies. 411 00:23:59,975 --> 00:24:00,335 Yeah. 412 00:24:05,145 --> 00:24:09,165 Like the, there's been a complete lack of enforcement with respect 413 00:24:09,165 --> 00:24:10,995 to generative AI and mm-hmm. 414 00:24:11,235 --> 00:24:12,645 What it's delivering. 415 00:24:13,275 --> 00:24:20,475 And, um, it would be a PR nightmare for the bar to go try to enforce. 416 00:24:21,015 --> 00:24:24,105 And, uh, I've had this debate with somebody on a LinkedIn thread. 417 00:24:24,195 --> 00:24:24,675 Um. 418 00:24:25,635 --> 00:24:27,885 They, they have done this in the past. 419 00:24:27,885 --> 00:24:29,115 They have gone after. 420 00:24:29,505 --> 00:24:33,795 But I think what's different about this time is the ubiquity of the technology. 421 00:24:33,795 --> 00:24:33,885 Mm-hmm. 422 00:24:34,155 --> 00:24:35,565 It's not an isolated case. 423 00:24:35,925 --> 00:24:38,805 It would be very unpopular. 424 00:24:39,389 --> 00:24:47,189 For if a group of well-to-do, you know, or, or, or a industry group representing 425 00:24:47,189 --> 00:24:52,050 a bunch of, well-to-do lawyers, decided to go attack chat, GPT, you know, 426 00:24:52,050 --> 00:24:57,090 open AI and anthropic and these model providers because of, and, and further 427 00:24:57,090 --> 00:25:00,570 limit access, I think there would be pitchforks and torches if that happened. 428 00:25:00,810 --> 00:25:01,080 Right. 429 00:25:01,274 --> 00:25:03,659 And I, and I think that's part of it too, when you get into 430 00:25:03,659 --> 00:25:05,189 the political aspect of it. 431 00:25:05,940 --> 00:25:10,620 You're, if you go after an individual, the individual is gonna be enjoined to 432 00:25:10,620 --> 00:25:14,790 open AI or philanthropic or whatever The large language model provider was, 433 00:25:14,790 --> 00:25:19,620 was using this, and so now there's big money That's also then attached to 434 00:25:19,980 --> 00:25:24,870 this in what I would call industrial revolution, is AI industrial revolution 435 00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:26,685 that's occurring right now for which. 436 00:25:27,379 --> 00:25:31,010 You know, the Biden administration and the current administration have, you 437 00:25:31,010 --> 00:25:35,600 know, adjusted policies, recognizing that it's strategically important for us 438 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,270 to control computing power and to have the energy and the water and everything 439 00:25:41,270 --> 00:25:46,280 else to be able to scale up massively large data centers to win the ai. 440 00:25:47,129 --> 00:25:51,689 Revolution if you'll, so I think there's a lot of things like that that are playing 441 00:25:51,780 --> 00:25:57,270 together and harmonizing where, you know, in my, the next article that I'm, uh, 442 00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:02,610 just submitted is really about how UPL is bending right now under the, the physical 443 00:26:02,610 --> 00:26:05,129 pressure of all these forces right now. 444 00:26:05,129 --> 00:26:06,429 And that's the thing that's gonna have to give. 445 00:26:07,575 --> 00:26:08,175 Hundred percent. 446 00:26:08,175 --> 00:26:08,415 Yeah. 447 00:26:08,415 --> 00:26:11,025 I think especially with this administration there, 448 00:26:11,085 --> 00:26:12,645 it would be very difficult. 449 00:26:13,035 --> 00:26:17,565 There, there's a lot of headwinds towards enforcement around that. 450 00:26:18,225 --> 00:26:25,035 Um, so, you know, we, we, there are a lot of what I see as, as headwinds 451 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,905 for firms, especially in big law. 452 00:26:28,935 --> 00:26:29,140 You know, they. 453 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:33,150 I've jokingly called, and I didn't make this term up, but 454 00:26:33,180 --> 00:26:34,620 you know, big law is hotel. 455 00:26:34,770 --> 00:26:36,030 It's a hotel for lawyers. 456 00:26:36,150 --> 00:26:36,240 Yeah. 457 00:26:36,510 --> 00:26:41,220 Um, you know, the, the lateral mobility and, you know, the ability 458 00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:45,630 for a, a lawyer to take his book of business with him or her across 459 00:26:45,630 --> 00:26:48,330 the street is, is somewhat unique. 460 00:26:48,330 --> 00:26:52,500 Like, um, it doesn't exist in most other industries, but because of the 461 00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:56,160 A BA rules that, um, require that. 462 00:26:56,925 --> 00:26:59,595 That lawyers act in the best interest of their clients. 463 00:26:59,835 --> 00:27:05,205 They, the, the firm really can't lay claim to those relationships, and they 464 00:27:05,415 --> 00:27:07,274 most often go with the lawyers, right? 465 00:27:07,274 --> 00:27:11,415 But that cre, that creates headwinds for capital investment, right? 466 00:27:11,415 --> 00:27:16,425 So if I'm not, if I'm not invested even as a partner, if I'm not invested 467 00:27:16,845 --> 00:27:23,835 fully in my relationship with this law firm and there's a capital. 468 00:27:24,405 --> 00:27:29,865 Expense or investment that needs to be made, I'm not likely to vote on it. 469 00:27:29,865 --> 00:27:31,905 I don't know if I'm gonna be here in three years. 470 00:27:31,910 --> 00:27:32,355 Right, right. 471 00:27:32,355 --> 00:27:37,155 I mean, how do you see the, how do you see that dynamic impacting 472 00:27:37,155 --> 00:27:40,754 firm's ability to like make big investments in things like tech? 473 00:27:41,175 --> 00:27:41,595 Right. 474 00:27:41,835 --> 00:27:45,015 Well, being in South Florida right now, I think about hurricanes a little bit. 475 00:27:45,015 --> 00:27:48,315 And you know, if the wind blows in the right direction and just the 476 00:27:48,315 --> 00:27:52,005 right way, it can knock and find the vulnerability in the structure. 477 00:27:52,005 --> 00:27:54,705 And I think that if you think of law firms. 478 00:27:55,605 --> 00:27:56,745 As structure. 479 00:27:56,985 --> 00:28:00,705 I think there are some ways that the wind can blow that could be pretty dangerous. 480 00:28:00,975 --> 00:28:04,514 And you know, I just was reading, uh, somebody noted I 481 00:28:04,514 --> 00:28:05,774 was talking about somebody Dr. 482 00:28:05,835 --> 00:28:11,475 This morning and, um, you know, they basically acquired 24 partners from, uh, 483 00:28:11,625 --> 00:28:14,325 uh, McDermott Will, uh, in the last week. 484 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,760 And one of the attorneys, one of the articles I was reading about 485 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,080 it afterwards was mentioning that Decker's a good platform for them. 486 00:28:23,439 --> 00:28:28,000 Um, which I think really kind of speaks to the hoteling and the, the power that 487 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,010 the attorneys have over the platform of the shell that that enables them to work 488 00:28:33,010 --> 00:28:34,929 together and provides that infrastructure. 489 00:28:34,929 --> 00:28:38,679 So I think there is a potential that law firms. 490 00:28:38,935 --> 00:28:41,935 If the wind blows in a particular direction, you know, you could 491 00:28:41,935 --> 00:28:46,135 see more firms start to, you know, unwind if you will. 492 00:28:46,495 --> 00:28:51,235 It's a result of, you know, changes with AI and technology and rethinking 493 00:28:51,655 --> 00:28:55,405 structures, and who should do what work and what work really requires advice. 494 00:28:56,475 --> 00:28:56,745 Yeah. 495 00:28:56,745 --> 00:29:01,425 You know, there was the McGlinchy uh, wind down that was announced recently. 496 00:29:01,425 --> 00:29:01,514 Mm-hmm. 497 00:29:01,905 --> 00:29:05,564 And I'm, I don't know, is that a, is that a canary in the coal mine? 498 00:29:05,564 --> 00:29:12,044 We didn't, they didn't, you know, no, no reasons were that I saw were disclosed 499 00:29:12,044 --> 00:29:15,195 publicly as to the motivation for it. 500 00:29:15,199 --> 00:29:19,094 But, um, you know, by, and, and they were outside the AM law. 501 00:29:19,155 --> 00:29:20,205 Uh, maybe, maybe. 502 00:29:21,135 --> 00:29:21,765 Attorneys. 503 00:29:21,945 --> 00:29:22,035 Mm-hmm. 504 00:29:22,545 --> 00:29:23,055 Ish. 505 00:29:23,445 --> 00:29:28,155 But you know, is that, I honestly see that I call that mid law. 506 00:29:28,185 --> 00:29:34,545 I know many vendors it, it's smaller than that, but for us as a segment, that's 507 00:29:34,545 --> 00:29:36,405 kind of like what we consider mid law. 508 00:29:36,885 --> 00:29:46,695 I would say that 100 to 400 attorney range feels especially vulnerable to me because. 509 00:29:47,325 --> 00:29:51,405 I think that, um, you know, they're not getting usually the bet the 510 00:29:51,405 --> 00:29:53,775 company, you know, matters, right? 511 00:29:53,775 --> 00:29:55,935 That's going to the mostly am law firms. 512 00:29:56,655 --> 00:30:01,545 There's a, they have fewer resources and capabilities, right? 513 00:30:01,545 --> 00:30:04,845 They don't have the same, you know, big KM teams. 514 00:30:04,845 --> 00:30:07,515 In fact, most don't have KM teams at all. 515 00:30:08,055 --> 00:30:12,525 Um, and they have less partner capital. 516 00:30:12,795 --> 00:30:14,625 To, to deploy. 517 00:30:14,805 --> 00:30:18,705 I don't know, but some people disagree with me on this, but, uh, I think there's 518 00:30:18,705 --> 00:30:20,025 a lot, a lot of ways to look at it. 519 00:30:20,025 --> 00:30:23,355 But I think on, on the smaller end of the spectrum, you know, 520 00:30:23,355 --> 00:30:25,215 it's, uh, they're speedboats. 521 00:30:25,215 --> 00:30:28,905 They have the ability to pivot quickly and try new things and take risks. 522 00:30:29,475 --> 00:30:33,255 And then at the top of the market, uh, yeah, they're big oil tankers, 523 00:30:33,435 --> 00:30:35,505 but they also have a lot of resources. 524 00:30:35,505 --> 00:30:37,945 So it feels like the middle of the market might. 525 00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:42,810 Might have more challenges with a tech in a tech transformation. 526 00:30:42,810 --> 00:30:43,830 Is that how you view it? 527 00:30:45,705 --> 00:30:50,025 I'm not sure how much the tech piece really is the factor. 528 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,205 I, I tend to think of it from a client perspective and 529 00:30:53,205 --> 00:30:54,735 define the market that way. 530 00:30:55,065 --> 00:30:59,235 So using, using the analogy of tax and accounting, since I haven't been 531 00:30:59,235 --> 00:31:03,975 exclusively in, in law my entire career, I spent a decent amount of time there. 532 00:31:03,975 --> 00:31:05,805 And accounting firms, you have the. 533 00:31:13,515 --> 00:31:16,155 Of serving multinational corporations. 534 00:31:16,545 --> 00:31:19,305 Then, you know, it's been a little while since I've looked at the 535 00:31:19,305 --> 00:31:23,805 numbers, but the next 30 or so are really national in scope. 536 00:31:23,835 --> 00:31:28,695 They're here to serve the needs, the US domestic needs of. 537 00:31:29,415 --> 00:31:33,135 You know, a national company or the US domestic needs of a corporation. 538 00:31:33,495 --> 00:31:36,345 And then you get below that and you start to get into regionals. 539 00:31:36,405 --> 00:31:40,905 And regionals have been bought up by others that are trying to expand 540 00:31:40,905 --> 00:31:44,385 their national footprint, and it's kind of like an hourglass model. 541 00:31:44,385 --> 00:31:47,505 When you look at the total number of accountants you've got. 542 00:31:47,689 --> 00:31:49,460 A lot at the high end of the market. 543 00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:53,030 Then you have this narrow area, like an hour class, and then you go down 544 00:31:53,030 --> 00:31:56,210 and you have the smaller ones that are dealing with local, small businesses 545 00:31:56,210 --> 00:31:59,870 that really are never gonna work outside of, you know, uh, Columbus, 546 00:31:59,870 --> 00:32:02,540 Ohio, or Tallahassee, Florida. 547 00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:04,879 It's just, that's, that's kind of where they're at. 548 00:32:05,149 --> 00:32:09,679 So I look at it that way, and I think these mid law regional firms 549 00:32:09,679 --> 00:32:14,149 like McGlinchy have, you know, as long as things are relatively static 550 00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:16,010 in their market and who they serve. 551 00:32:16,455 --> 00:32:21,495 They're gonna be okay, but you, you know, look at Walmart, look at, look 552 00:32:21,495 --> 00:32:26,445 at the consolidation across, you know, international organizations, 553 00:32:26,895 --> 00:32:31,305 retail, manufacturing, you know the number of companies that are 554 00:32:31,305 --> 00:32:32,955 that kind of regional kind of. 555 00:32:33,020 --> 00:32:34,700 Footprint, I think are shrinking. 556 00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:36,650 I think that's the real issue. 557 00:32:36,650 --> 00:32:40,160 And when that happens, then you have to take your speedboat and decide how 558 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,540 do you leverage the strengths of your speedboat and find out can you be more 559 00:32:44,540 --> 00:32:48,650 effective at transactional work and pivot and give more, you know, uh, 560 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,639 focused customer service to those, or do you know the court system. 561 00:32:52,935 --> 00:32:57,915 Exceptionally well so that any big law firm that's gonna go to San Antonio and 562 00:32:57,915 --> 00:33:02,385 has to, you know, plead a case, is gonna come to you to help because you're the 563 00:33:02,385 --> 00:33:04,544 ones that know the courts in San Antonio. 564 00:33:04,935 --> 00:33:09,375 Um, those are the sorts of things that I think, you know, strategically mid law 565 00:33:09,375 --> 00:33:10,965 firms are gonna need to think through. 566 00:33:11,235 --> 00:33:13,784 They're probably gonna wanna be fast followers on technology. 567 00:33:13,784 --> 00:33:16,605 I would let big law do the learning. 568 00:33:17,595 --> 00:33:21,765 Organized in teacher IT department, in the rescue firm to be 569 00:33:21,765 --> 00:33:23,805 understanding what works and why. 570 00:33:24,105 --> 00:33:28,995 Is it, you know, is it the optics and politics of saying, Hey, look, look, we've 571 00:33:28,995 --> 00:33:33,885 got Lara or rv, or you know, look what we did with, with, um, uh, co-counsel. 572 00:33:34,815 --> 00:33:39,945 Or is it something where there's like legitimate value and, and be prepared 573 00:33:39,945 --> 00:33:42,045 to deploy successful solutions quickly? 574 00:33:43,515 --> 00:33:43,695 Yeah. 575 00:33:43,695 --> 00:33:46,665 If you're in the speedboat, stay away from the coast of Venezuela. 576 00:33:49,005 --> 00:33:50,175 Things could end badly. 577 00:33:50,625 --> 00:33:51,615 Um, yeah. 578 00:33:51,615 --> 00:33:54,645 You know, it's, and, and the, the account, that's a really good, I, I 579 00:33:54,645 --> 00:33:58,245 think that, you know, the consulting slash accounting world is the 580 00:33:58,245 --> 00:34:00,255 closest adjacent industry to legal. 581 00:34:00,255 --> 00:34:00,375 Mm-hmm. 582 00:34:00,795 --> 00:34:02,415 And vastly different. 583 00:34:03,030 --> 00:34:04,110 Dynamics there. 584 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:10,170 Uh, in terms of, you know, the big four combined revenue is about 240 billion. 585 00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:15,449 Um, if you add up all of the revenue, the AMLO 100, it's about 160 billion. 586 00:34:15,449 --> 00:34:15,540 Mm-hmm. 587 00:34:15,870 --> 00:34:17,880 That's basically Deloitte and ey. 588 00:34:18,779 --> 00:34:19,049 Right. 589 00:34:19,049 --> 00:34:23,489 Two firms equal the revenue of a hundred law of the top 100 law firms. 590 00:34:23,819 --> 00:34:24,060 Right. 591 00:34:24,060 --> 00:34:27,120 And um, if you look at, you know, there's the big four and 592 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:32,040 everybody else, I think it's Grant Thornton is single digits, right. 593 00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:35,549 KPMG's at the bottom of the big four at 45 billion. 594 00:34:35,939 --> 00:34:41,100 And then, um, grant Thornton, I think is Thor ddo, rsm, glads type. 595 00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:42,149 Yeah. 596 00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:43,859 All single digit billion. 597 00:34:43,859 --> 00:34:47,879 So it's like I could see the market moving. 598 00:34:48,435 --> 00:34:54,194 That way in terms of, you know, and the, the, the biggest players in the 599 00:34:54,194 --> 00:34:58,035 space, and I guess, you know, the, the, that mid tier two, the Grant Thorntons 600 00:34:58,035 --> 00:34:59,265 of the world, they do this also. 601 00:34:59,265 --> 00:35:02,865 It's, you know, it's tax advisory and consulting. 602 00:35:03,075 --> 00:35:03,404 Yes. 603 00:35:03,495 --> 00:35:04,484 Um, right. 604 00:35:04,484 --> 00:35:09,225 It's not just a single, um, it's not just a single focus, or, I'm 605 00:35:09,225 --> 00:35:11,625 sorry, audit, tax advisory and audit. 606 00:35:11,625 --> 00:35:11,714 Right. 607 00:35:12,075 --> 00:35:12,495 Um. 608 00:35:13,410 --> 00:35:13,620 Yeah. 609 00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:13,920 I don't know. 610 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,910 Do you see, I, I feel like the, the market is right for consolidation. 611 00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:20,339 Do you, do you feel that it is, 612 00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:27,990 I don't know how much it's gonna consolidate in big law at this point, 613 00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:30,120 but I do think that mid law is. 614 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,810 Get squeezed a little bit more and they're gonna have to figure out how to focus. 615 00:35:33,810 --> 00:35:38,040 And if they can't focus, maybe they become the San Antonio or 616 00:35:38,220 --> 00:35:43,830 you know, south Texas, you know, regional arm of an AM law 200 firm. 617 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:45,720 I think those things will happen. 618 00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:48,480 So I definitely think there'll be consolidation from that standpoint. 619 00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:52,230 Um, I also think that, that there's the bigger forces of 620 00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:53,670 things moving in-house too. 621 00:35:53,700 --> 00:35:57,840 So that's, you know, that's another area where if more work goes in, and I'm 622 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,790 even hearing of a, you know, handful. 623 00:36:00,009 --> 00:36:03,819 You know, larger corporations, bringing some in-house litigators in, which I 624 00:36:03,819 --> 00:36:07,750 thought was very interesting because to me that's very bespoke and something 625 00:36:07,750 --> 00:36:09,279 where, you know, it's a distraction. 626 00:36:09,279 --> 00:36:12,700 You're getting sued, don't, you know, to the point of distractions, 627 00:36:12,970 --> 00:36:14,080 that's not something you wanna do. 628 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,990 But if you have enough of it, it's repeatable that you 629 00:36:16,990 --> 00:36:18,910 can handle that in-house. 630 00:36:18,910 --> 00:36:19,690 Maybe you do. 631 00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:23,799 So those are some of the, the factors that I think are, are very intriguing. 632 00:36:23,799 --> 00:36:27,100 And there's some interesting facet, like with. 633 00:36:28,590 --> 00:36:35,100 P, W, C and E both in in the accounting space when work kept going inhouse 634 00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:39,540 and in-house and inhouse for tax work, which trend for decades. 635 00:36:40,650 --> 00:36:43,320 PWC bought GEs tax departments. 636 00:36:43,770 --> 00:36:43,830 Yeah. 637 00:36:44,850 --> 00:36:49,710 And ENY bought Duke Energy's tax department and basically said, you know, 638 00:36:49,740 --> 00:36:51,540 we'll, we'll take care of all your issues. 639 00:36:51,540 --> 00:36:54,390 We'll do it for less money and we'll do it better than what you could do inhouse. 640 00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:57,180 And they onboarded those, those people and they got rebadged, 641 00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:59,700 this PWC or EY employees. 642 00:37:00,060 --> 00:37:04,560 I think one of the very interesting things, it's like a, um, a follow 643 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,370 on force that may play through here is what's stopping an AM law. 644 00:37:09,135 --> 00:37:13,905 Hundred firm from going and approaching one of their larger clients and saying, 645 00:37:13,905 --> 00:37:17,385 look, you got 150 in-house attorneys here. 646 00:37:17,925 --> 00:37:20,115 We'll take that over for you. 647 00:37:20,625 --> 00:37:24,405 We'll guarantee that we'll cut your expenses for 20%. 648 00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:29,040 Based on your projections for the next five years, um, and will just be your 649 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,960 outsourced legal department in total. 650 00:37:31,290 --> 00:37:35,370 Um, I think that would be a very provocative and interesting thing to see 651 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,270 play out, especially as the law firms start to figure out how to separate the 652 00:37:39,270 --> 00:37:43,020 managed services and the information side of things from the advice. 653 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,980 Um, I think if too much work goes in-house, I could see that 654 00:37:46,980 --> 00:37:50,310 sort of thing playing out, you know, as a, a kind of pause. 655 00:37:50,655 --> 00:37:54,705 Um, because there's, there's political and there's personal implications to 656 00:37:54,705 --> 00:37:56,565 those things, not just the economics. 657 00:37:57,690 --> 00:37:58,080 Yeah. 658 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,130 You know, um, and another, I think maybe for opposing force to 659 00:38:02,130 --> 00:38:07,560 consolidation is law firms don't scale very well, which is why, you know, 660 00:38:07,650 --> 00:38:09,900 we have k and e at the top at mm-hmm. 661 00:38:10,140 --> 00:38:11,340 Eight and a half billion. 662 00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:14,850 And that wouldn't even qualify you to be in the Fortune 500 if you were public. 663 00:38:14,850 --> 00:38:14,940 Right. 664 00:38:15,660 --> 00:38:18,540 They don't scale very well because of the bespoke nature 665 00:38:18,990 --> 00:38:20,970 and the lack of consistency. 666 00:38:21,630 --> 00:38:22,650 Um, and the. 667 00:38:23,205 --> 00:38:30,195 Um, increased lateral mobility of partners and it's just a hard business 668 00:38:30,615 --> 00:38:34,365 to scale when everything is bespoke. 669 00:38:34,365 --> 00:38:39,945 But what we're, there is a large tranche of legal work that is 670 00:38:40,635 --> 00:38:47,295 going to move to a FA and once that happens, so it's about 20% right now. 671 00:38:47,775 --> 00:38:51,525 Um, I could see that getting into the mid forties. 672 00:38:52,334 --> 00:38:53,354 Uh, over time. 673 00:38:53,685 --> 00:38:53,834 Right? 674 00:38:53,834 --> 00:38:58,604 And once that happens, then efficiency is really gonna be a focus. 675 00:38:58,935 --> 00:39:02,444 And when that happens, these law firms are gonna have to operate differently, and 676 00:39:02,444 --> 00:39:05,595 then economies of scale may materialize. 677 00:39:05,595 --> 00:39:05,654 Yeah. 678 00:39:05,774 --> 00:39:06,435 Would you agree? 679 00:39:07,064 --> 00:39:07,245 Yeah. 680 00:39:07,245 --> 00:39:11,745 I think that's the real critical question, is these managed services organizations, 681 00:39:11,745 --> 00:39:13,439 how labor intensive are they? 682 00:39:14,180 --> 00:39:15,600 If if they are. 683 00:39:16,365 --> 00:39:22,065 Minimally labor intensive and you can get, you know, a, a task to be 90% automated 684 00:39:22,185 --> 00:39:25,125 with technology and 10% with, with staff. 685 00:39:25,455 --> 00:39:27,435 I think you can get economies of scale. 686 00:39:27,495 --> 00:39:32,685 It gets 50 50 or, or there's a limit in terms of how much you can do with 687 00:39:32,685 --> 00:39:37,694 technology and then to get the next, you know, the next, uh, client or 688 00:39:37,694 --> 00:39:40,845 to do the next, uh, batch of work. 689 00:39:41,085 --> 00:39:41,355 It's. 690 00:39:42,060 --> 00:39:46,379 It's gonna another person, whether you're a 50 person managed services 691 00:39:46,379 --> 00:39:51,540 firm, or a 50,000 person managed services firm, then it becomes something where 692 00:39:51,540 --> 00:39:56,069 the barriers to entry are low and you could have others play through. 693 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,839 But I do feel that, you know, just like the PWCs are so 694 00:40:00,990 --> 00:40:02,460 large that you know the big. 695 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,230 Big four or big, um, you know, could you see a roll up of managed 696 00:40:07,230 --> 00:40:11,910 services organizations where you end up with, uh, you know, uh, some of 697 00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:16,050 those consolidating in such a way that they do actually leverage scale 698 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,010 even if scaling isn't perfect and there is a, a labor component to it. 699 00:40:21,404 --> 00:40:21,855 Yeah. 700 00:40:21,855 --> 00:40:26,384 I, man, I, I really feel like the liberalization movement is going 701 00:40:26,384 --> 00:40:28,544 to get traction here in the us. 702 00:40:28,575 --> 00:40:28,634 Yeah. 703 00:40:29,055 --> 00:40:32,924 You know, we've, we've seen some capitulation like in Utah with their 704 00:40:32,924 --> 00:40:36,134 sandbox, Arizona is still going strong. 705 00:40:36,734 --> 00:40:41,984 Um, I feel like that is an inevitability and there's still 706 00:40:41,984 --> 00:40:44,085 a lot of resistance to it today. 707 00:40:44,565 --> 00:40:48,194 I actually think that will shift as well, because. 708 00:40:49,335 --> 00:40:55,005 As, as firms have to invest more in tech, both in people, in, you know, the 709 00:40:55,005 --> 00:40:59,265 technology and infrastructure itself, they're going to need to be able to pull. 710 00:41:00,314 --> 00:41:04,634 Talent from the Silicon Valley, you know, the Amazons and the Metas of the world. 711 00:41:04,904 --> 00:41:10,064 How do you do that in a, in a, in a world where stock options are, are customary? 712 00:41:10,125 --> 00:41:10,245 Yeah. 713 00:41:10,245 --> 00:41:15,015 And you can't, you can't, you can't give stock options, um, 714 00:41:15,044 --> 00:41:16,710 to a non-lawyer in a law firm. 715 00:41:17,479 --> 00:41:20,479 So there has to, I mean, there's ways to, you know, phantom equity and the, 716 00:41:21,049 --> 00:41:22,250 you know, things that you can do. 717 00:41:22,250 --> 00:41:26,870 But, um, I think that's a key limitation to the, the partnership model and, 718 00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:28,729 and why things will be liberalized. 719 00:41:28,939 --> 00:41:33,229 And then the investment mechanism, the, the MSO is, it's, it's kind 720 00:41:33,229 --> 00:41:38,120 of messy in how they, um, the governance model that they use to 721 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,504 protect their investment and what. 722 00:41:40,125 --> 00:41:44,325 Goes way in the practice side versus the, so I don't know. 723 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,895 I I, it, it feels like, what's your take on, I mean, 'cause 724 00:41:47,895 --> 00:41:48,975 this has already happened. 725 00:41:49,245 --> 00:41:54,315 Yeah, it happened almost 20 years ago in the UK with the Legal Services Act 726 00:41:54,675 --> 00:41:57,195 and I don't know when it happened in Australia, but it's happened there. 727 00:41:57,195 --> 00:42:01,305 And no, there's been no massive breach of. 728 00:42:01,980 --> 00:42:02,970 Responsibility. 729 00:42:02,970 --> 00:42:05,040 There's been some bumps in the roads, but there's been bumps 730 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,960 in the roads here too, right? 731 00:42:07,230 --> 00:42:11,460 I think with ai, some of the question is gonna be what, what is the goal of 732 00:42:11,460 --> 00:42:13,950 regulation and why did it exist before? 733 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,030 Uh, which might be uncomfortable in some situations for, you know, the, 734 00:42:18,030 --> 00:42:21,120 the legal industry to look and say, why did we require independence? 735 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:22,680 Why did we do all these things? 736 00:42:23,275 --> 00:42:25,705 And I think. 737 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,960 I keep coming back to the DNA of innovation in America. 738 00:42:31,290 --> 00:42:36,300 You know, we have been an act first, regulate second, you know, type of, 739 00:42:36,420 --> 00:42:39,120 um, country and mentality for forever. 740 00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:43,230 Um, whether that was, you know, Rockefeller getting blocked 741 00:42:43,230 --> 00:42:43,975 from being able to ship. 742 00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:49,500 Kerosene and oil, you know, to his refineries or to the destinations. 743 00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:53,310 And he just started building pipelines, you know, uh, no, no 744 00:42:53,310 --> 00:42:54,750 consideration of anything else. 745 00:42:54,750 --> 00:42:56,310 And then regulation comes later. 746 00:42:56,550 --> 00:43:00,420 Or if it's, you know, more recently with Uber, you know, Uber didn't 747 00:43:00,420 --> 00:43:03,780 stop and wait and raise their hand and say, Hey, can we have permission 748 00:43:03,780 --> 00:43:05,395 to, you know, like pick up people. 749 00:43:06,355 --> 00:43:09,145 In New York City, it, it kind of competes with the taxi 750 00:43:09,145 --> 00:43:10,405 medallion system or whatever. 751 00:43:10,405 --> 00:43:11,665 No, they just went and did it. 752 00:43:12,115 --> 00:43:15,895 And, you know, when there was a groundswell of popular, you know, 753 00:43:15,895 --> 00:43:20,665 adoption and approval of the service, you know, the regulators had to 754 00:43:20,665 --> 00:43:22,645 respond and they were being reactive. 755 00:43:22,705 --> 00:43:24,475 And I think that's gonna be the way it's gonna be. 756 00:43:24,475 --> 00:43:27,370 Even with, with these sorts of changes with DPL. 757 00:43:27,930 --> 00:43:30,120 And, you know, more, more broadly. 758 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,820 So I think that's the, the big factor to me that's gonna 759 00:43:33,270 --> 00:43:35,070 cause this to be teased out. 760 00:43:35,070 --> 00:43:38,580 And then, you know, law firms are gonna have that, you know, that, 761 00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:43,320 that challenge of managed services or corporations doing things. 762 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,670 And there's gonna have to be a little bit more thought on what is legal 763 00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:50,100 advice, what is the appropriate way to. 764 00:43:51,570 --> 00:43:55,530 To manage and organize, to be able to take advantage of capital, to 765 00:43:55,530 --> 00:43:59,760 be able to separate things out that are going to be easily substituted 766 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,080 with technology and where is the legal advice that really needs to be 767 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,690 protected and is distinctly human. 768 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:08,340 Yeah. 769 00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:09,900 You know what's interesting is. 770 00:44:10,935 --> 00:44:17,835 Europe is largely in the uk, are largely regulation first and they've, they 771 00:44:17,835 --> 00:44:19,875 liberalized, uh, the legal market. 772 00:44:19,875 --> 00:44:19,935 Yeah. 773 00:44:20,115 --> 00:44:21,315 Almost 20 years ago. 774 00:44:21,645 --> 00:44:21,915 Right? 775 00:44:22,755 --> 00:44:27,105 So why are we still holding on to this antiquated model? 776 00:44:27,945 --> 00:44:30,675 Um, yeah, it's a head scratcher. 777 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,350 I mean, I have to be careful 'cause I'm looking at this more from the systems 778 00:44:34,350 --> 00:44:35,820 perspective because I'm not a lawyer. 779 00:44:35,820 --> 00:44:35,910 Mm-hmm. 780 00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:40,320 But just trying to look at it and understand I, you know, I look at it 781 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,650 and say, there's pressures here that are gonna push this over the edge. 782 00:44:43,650 --> 00:44:49,110 And, and it'll probably be more about non-enforcement, except in areas 783 00:44:49,110 --> 00:44:52,590 where there are a clear, you know, if somebody's misrepresenting themselves and 784 00:44:52,590 --> 00:44:54,420 saying, Hey, I'm an attorney, trust me. 785 00:44:54,780 --> 00:44:59,040 Um, you know, those things will continue to be clearly out of bounds. 786 00:44:59,759 --> 00:45:02,490 But I think that we're gonna have to figure out where's the steady 787 00:45:02,490 --> 00:45:05,910 state and let's supply and demand and creativity and innovation. 788 00:45:06,330 --> 00:45:09,900 Figure out where the edges are and then regulate around those new edges. 789 00:45:10,770 --> 00:45:11,220 Yeah. 790 00:45:11,250 --> 00:45:11,580 Okay. 791 00:45:11,580 --> 00:45:14,009 Well, you said something, we're almost outta time, but I wanted 792 00:45:14,009 --> 00:45:18,330 to touch on this one last topic, which is value-based pricing. 793 00:45:18,330 --> 00:45:19,950 And you said supply and demand and mm-hmm. 794 00:45:20,190 --> 00:45:23,130 Uh, there's a relationship there that I think doesn't get talked about enough. 795 00:45:23,730 --> 00:45:25,200 You know, I've, I've, I've heard it. 796 00:45:25,815 --> 00:45:29,775 Time and time again that value-based pricing is the answer to this 797 00:45:30,525 --> 00:45:35,325 AI conundrum and like that's not the end of the conversation. 798 00:45:35,325 --> 00:45:37,065 That's the beginning of the conversation. 799 00:45:37,335 --> 00:45:37,425 Sure. 800 00:45:37,425 --> 00:45:39,570 Because actually value-based pricing is still. 801 00:45:40,365 --> 00:45:42,645 Subject to the laws of supply and demand. 802 00:45:42,915 --> 00:45:46,694 In other words, you can't say, well, I this, you know, I, I've 803 00:45:46,694 --> 00:45:49,334 used this example in the podcast before, but I think it's a good one. 804 00:45:49,725 --> 00:45:54,584 I had a, uh, I had a leak in a sewer pipe in a wall in my basement, and 805 00:45:54,944 --> 00:46:00,705 the plumbing company came out and gave me a quote, a flat fee to fix it. 806 00:46:01,004 --> 00:46:01,814 And it was about. 807 00:46:02,205 --> 00:46:06,734 I don't know, $2,500 and they did that. 808 00:46:06,825 --> 00:46:12,314 I'm assuming based on a cost calculation and some sort of margin that they had 809 00:46:12,314 --> 00:46:17,625 built in, at no time did they say, well, you know, the value of this sewer pipe 810 00:46:17,625 --> 00:46:22,350 not leaking into your basement is worth $40,000, so I'm gonna charge you 10. 811 00:46:23,295 --> 00:46:26,235 The reason that they didn't do that is because they know I'll pick up the phone 812 00:46:26,235 --> 00:46:30,735 and call another plumber who'll come out and give me a more reasonable approach. 813 00:46:30,735 --> 00:46:31,035 Right? 814 00:46:31,035 --> 00:46:38,565 So we can't just like, as, uh, try to attack, get fi fixated on a percentage 815 00:46:38,565 --> 00:46:41,925 of the value delivered because you still have, we still have the 816 00:46:41,925 --> 00:46:44,565 competitive dynamics in the marketplace. 817 00:46:44,925 --> 00:46:45,465 So, I don't know. 818 00:46:45,465 --> 00:46:49,395 What is your, what are your thoughts on value-based pricing 819 00:46:49,425 --> 00:46:51,735 and how we go about attacking that? 820 00:46:52,795 --> 00:46:57,464 I. I would add one thing to your analogy, which is the do it yourself angle, which 821 00:46:57,464 --> 00:47:01,154 if you had the tools and you were willing to go out and, you know, get the right 822 00:47:01,154 --> 00:47:05,805 acetylene, blow torch and you knew how to do things, that's another substitute. 823 00:47:06,345 --> 00:47:10,904 I think of things from, uh, Michael Porter, who was a Harvard professor. 824 00:47:10,904 --> 00:47:15,645 Uh, and he had a, a model called Porter's Model, which basically looked at the basic 825 00:47:15,825 --> 00:47:21,794 relative power of, of suppliers and you know, and the buying power of the buyers. 826 00:47:22,125 --> 00:47:22,694 And then. 827 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,410 One of the key things with new entrance into the market and then substitutes. 828 00:47:26,410 --> 00:47:31,660 So I look at this and say a lot of this is going to be driven from a cost basis 829 00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:34,000 when a corporation can do work in-house. 830 00:47:34,300 --> 00:47:38,680 So if you can do it yourself in-house and do that reliably, 831 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,300 and it's not a distraction that undermines value-based pricing, um. 832 00:47:43,795 --> 00:47:46,855 I think another angle on it, because I think one of the best areas where 833 00:47:46,855 --> 00:47:51,565 there is value-based pricing is, you know, going to a, uh, a white shoe 834 00:47:51,565 --> 00:47:56,305 law firm or a, you know, a big law firm to do a big m and a transaction. 835 00:47:56,755 --> 00:47:59,725 Nobody cares what the expense was. 836 00:47:59,725 --> 00:48:04,705 If it's within a benchmark, uh, for the actual legal fees to complete the 837 00:48:04,705 --> 00:48:09,385 acquisition of a company, they just wanna know that the acquisition was successful 838 00:48:09,385 --> 00:48:10,885 and that it didn't get screwed up. 839 00:48:11,940 --> 00:48:15,210 Concerned about, well, we, we spent too much money here and went over budget. 840 00:48:15,630 --> 00:48:19,380 Um, and one of the reasons is because that's the value is insurance. 841 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,010 You know, you, you've got the best minds working on this to make sure 842 00:48:23,010 --> 00:48:24,960 that the deal doesn't go sideways. 843 00:48:25,290 --> 00:48:28,710 Um, my question is what if technology. 844 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:34,380 Go through and provide a better demonstrable outcome where, or a 845 00:48:34,380 --> 00:48:38,880 transaction where you end up with, you know, fewer holdbacks, um, 846 00:48:39,090 --> 00:48:43,500 better, more sound due diligence than what you can get from a big law. 847 00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:45,690 Does that take away the insurance aspect? 848 00:48:45,690 --> 00:48:49,410 And then all of a sudden there's a different competition 849 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,660 for what is defined as value. 850 00:48:51,660 --> 00:48:55,920 And, you know, it becomes the standard of what a technology enabled. 851 00:48:56,270 --> 00:49:00,500 Firm can do that's more effective than just the, you know, the brand 852 00:49:00,500 --> 00:49:02,090 name that you're willing to pay for. 853 00:49:03,170 --> 00:49:07,490 Yeah, that's, that's a really good point about the kind of the DIY and how 854 00:49:07,490 --> 00:49:16,250 that relates also to the pricing model, that viability in the marketplace. 855 00:49:16,250 --> 00:49:16,610 Yeah, right. 856 00:49:16,610 --> 00:49:23,970 It's, it's how much, how much cost or margin is a. Buyer willing to 857 00:49:23,970 --> 00:49:27,780 accept before they decide to pull the work in-house and deal with 858 00:49:27,780 --> 00:49:29,850 all the inefficiencies, right? 859 00:49:29,850 --> 00:49:33,540 If you're Coca-Cola or Bank of America, your core competency is 860 00:49:33,540 --> 00:49:36,450 not delivering legal work, right? 861 00:49:36,540 --> 00:49:41,820 Um, so you're going to be less effective than somebody whose sole 862 00:49:41,820 --> 00:49:47,130 focus is that, but when the pain, there is a threshold where the pain 863 00:49:47,130 --> 00:49:50,220 gets exceeds, you're gonna deal with. 864 00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:53,490 Inefficiencies of doing the work inhouse. 865 00:49:53,490 --> 00:49:54,720 So yeah, that's a really good point. 866 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:55,230 Yeah. 867 00:49:57,150 --> 00:49:57,540 Closing. 868 00:50:04,065 --> 00:50:06,944 They need to manage their risk from a fiduciary perspective. 869 00:50:06,944 --> 00:50:09,795 So they're gonna ask questions about how are you using ai? 870 00:50:09,795 --> 00:50:12,555 What risk are you putting in, introducing to my company? 871 00:50:12,884 --> 00:50:17,415 But in a law firm, answering those questions are kind of giving the roadmap 872 00:50:17,415 --> 00:50:20,535 on the how, uh, how to do it in-house. 873 00:50:20,865 --> 00:50:26,384 And so I do think that a corporation that's maybe very IP intensive and files 874 00:50:26,384 --> 00:50:29,865 a lot of patents, you know, they may want to take more of that work in-house 875 00:50:29,865 --> 00:50:31,634 because it's strategic to what they do. 876 00:50:31,634 --> 00:50:34,455 Whereas another company that's, that's a distraction because 877 00:50:34,455 --> 00:50:37,904 they, they file a patent once in a blue moon and it's bespoke work. 878 00:50:37,904 --> 00:50:40,275 They're just gonna leave that, you know, externally. 879 00:50:40,575 --> 00:50:42,765 So I think you're gonna see some patterns like that where. 880 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,339 You know, as more work gets automated and the processes are figured out by the law 881 00:50:47,339 --> 00:50:52,259 firms and by the vendors like Harvey, Lara and others, you're going to see some of 882 00:50:52,259 --> 00:50:58,620 that work then move in-house is, do you, do you feel like some of these technology 883 00:50:59,190 --> 00:51:05,580 platforms that could be a, a Trojan horse essentially, where, you know, um. 884 00:51:06,285 --> 00:51:11,295 They develop the know-how and the, and the capabilities to deliver legal, legal 885 00:51:11,295 --> 00:51:16,695 work and end up, I mean, the valuations certainly point to, they almost have 886 00:51:16,695 --> 00:51:18,465 to do that to make investors ha Yeah. 887 00:51:18,465 --> 00:51:22,965 They have to displace law firm revenue to make their their investors. 888 00:51:23,415 --> 00:51:25,395 Hole on those valuations. 889 00:51:25,395 --> 00:51:28,365 Yeah, I think it would be foolish not to at least go through the mental 890 00:51:28,365 --> 00:51:30,435 exercise of are they Trojan horses? 891 00:51:30,435 --> 00:51:32,265 And I'll give OpenAI as an example. 892 00:51:32,685 --> 00:51:36,134 I use OpenAI, you know, for my contracting. 893 00:51:36,585 --> 00:51:40,035 And you know, I mean, I'll use a lawyer if I really need to, but 894 00:51:40,305 --> 00:51:44,265 OpenAI chat, GBT will come back and tell me, well, this is an unfair. 895 00:51:44,685 --> 00:51:45,375 Agreement. 896 00:51:45,465 --> 00:51:46,815 These are the one-sided areas. 897 00:51:46,815 --> 00:51:48,375 It will redline the areas. 898 00:51:48,375 --> 00:51:52,575 It will explain to me the legal issues and why it's important to me, and it 899 00:51:52,575 --> 00:51:59,175 will also suggest reasons and ways to go about negotiating those, those changes 900 00:51:59,175 --> 00:52:00,915 so that I can achieve a better outcome. 901 00:52:01,370 --> 00:52:06,440 I've never had a lawyer do that in-house or in my personal world, do that. 902 00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,890 And I think that the point there is, is that by being in the middle and 903 00:52:09,890 --> 00:52:13,100 having that big picture, you can grab the best practices from all these 904 00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:16,850 different areas to make something that's actually better, um, because 905 00:52:16,850 --> 00:52:18,710 you've got a broader viewpoint. 906 00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:21,920 So if Harvey and Lara are thinking about how to serve corporates, 907 00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,220 which they're, um, I would think that they're going to know those 908 00:52:25,220 --> 00:52:27,020 things and be able to, to take that. 909 00:52:27,385 --> 00:52:29,995 You know, that knowledge and build something that might actually be 910 00:52:30,235 --> 00:52:33,745 better and more powerful than, you know, the individual firms that 911 00:52:33,745 --> 00:52:35,125 think they've got their secret sauce. 912 00:52:35,125 --> 00:52:37,315 It's really worked very well for them for a long time. 913 00:52:38,275 --> 00:52:39,145 That's a really good point. 914 00:52:39,685 --> 00:52:40,825 Well, we'll have to leave it there. 915 00:52:40,825 --> 00:52:42,235 It was a great conversation, Ken. 916 00:52:42,235 --> 00:52:45,655 I knew it would be, um, you've been around the industry a long 917 00:52:45,655 --> 00:52:48,835 time and, and have just a ton of great thought, so I appreciate. 918 00:52:49,455 --> 00:52:52,904 Spending a little time with us, how do people find more, more about kind of what 919 00:52:52,904 --> 00:52:55,185 you do and, and, and that sort of stuff? 920 00:52:55,245 --> 00:52:55,575 Sure. 921 00:52:55,575 --> 00:52:59,685 So, uh, Ken Crutchfield on LinkedIn, uh, spring forward 922 00:52:59,685 --> 00:53:02,234 consulting.com is my website. 923 00:53:02,234 --> 00:53:03,404 You can find me there. 924 00:53:03,795 --> 00:53:09,524 Um, but I also do articles for Bob Ambrogi and Law Next and on Above the Law. 925 00:53:09,524 --> 00:53:13,004 So those are other areas that you can follow me and, and see, uh, 926 00:53:13,004 --> 00:53:14,475 what I'm writing and thinking about. 927 00:53:15,405 --> 00:53:16,875 But thank you so much for having me, Ted. 928 00:53:16,875 --> 00:53:18,075 This was a great conversation. 929 00:53:18,075 --> 00:53:21,285 Really enjoyed it, loved the, the, the flow and the ability to just 930 00:53:21,285 --> 00:53:22,575 kind of riff off of each other. 931 00:53:23,175 --> 00:53:23,715 Totally. 932 00:53:23,715 --> 00:53:23,955 Yeah. 933 00:53:23,955 --> 00:53:26,625 It was, it was, it was a, it was a good time, for sure. 934 00:53:27,045 --> 00:53:29,655 Alright, uh, Ken, well I appreciate your time and look forward to 935 00:53:29,655 --> 00:53:30,945 seeing you at the next event. 936 00:53:31,245 --> 00:53:32,385 Alright, very good. 937 00:53:32,475 --> 00:53:32,895 Take care. 938 00:53:33,705 --> 00:53:34,845 Alright, bye-bye bye. 939 00:53:34,935 --> 00:53:37,185 Thanks for listening to Legal Innovation Spotlight. 940 00:53:37,725 --> 00:53:41,205 If you found value in this chat, hit the subscribe button to be notified 941 00:53:41,205 --> 00:53:42,705 when we release new episodes. 942 00:53:43,185 --> 00:53:45,884 We'd also really appreciate it if you could take a moment to rate 943 00:53:45,884 --> 00:53:48,555 us and leave us a review wherever you're listening right now. 944 00:53:49,095 --> 00:53:51,825 Your feedback helps us provide you with top-notch content. -->