1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,220 Dr. Richard, thanks for joining today. 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:03,870 My pleasure, Ted. 3 00:00:03,870 --> 00:00:04,590 Good to be with you. 4 00:00:05,250 --> 00:00:09,480 Yeah, we've been trying to get this on the calendar now for over a year, and 5 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:14,285 that's largely my fault, but, um, it's great to finally make this thing happen. 6 00:00:15,540 --> 00:00:18,540 Likewise, 2026 maybe is the year for us, huh? 7 00:00:20,580 --> 00:00:23,250 So, um, we got a great agenda. 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,070 You know, I talk about your work all the time on the podcast. 9 00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:30,480 Your, your book lawyer brain, and a lot of the personality traits that 10 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:36,630 you've mapped out with in the legal space over decades, and it just 11 00:00:36,630 --> 00:00:38,640 connects so many dots and really helps. 12 00:00:39,404 --> 00:00:44,415 You know, people like me as a vendor who caters to the legal industry, 13 00:00:44,415 --> 00:00:50,055 understanding the psychology of our target audience and how they think, and, you 14 00:00:50,055 --> 00:00:54,105 know, what their biases are, what their strengths, what their weaknesses are. 15 00:00:54,194 --> 00:00:56,775 It really, it, it's really, really helpful. 16 00:00:56,775 --> 00:01:01,905 So, um, before we get into that, why don't, why don't we, uh, why don't you 17 00:01:02,084 --> 00:01:05,354 just introduce yourself, your, your background, what you're doing today, 18 00:01:05,354 --> 00:01:06,824 and, and then, and that sort of stuff. 19 00:01:07,410 --> 00:01:08,760 Sure, I'll be glad to do that. 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,550 I wanna start first by making a small correction. 21 00:01:11,940 --> 00:01:15,570 Um, I'm flattered that you mentioned my book Lawyer Brain, but I have not written 22 00:01:15,570 --> 00:01:20,580 that book yet, so I don't want your listeners to start burning up the lines 23 00:01:20,580 --> 00:01:22,500 at Amazon for a book that doesn't exist. 24 00:01:23,010 --> 00:01:23,400 Um. 25 00:01:24,570 --> 00:01:29,039 I, I have a book coming out in the spring called Thin Skin, why 26 00:01:29,039 --> 00:01:32,399 Lawyers Are So Low in Resilience and the New Science That Can Help. 27 00:01:32,460 --> 00:01:38,850 And I wrote a book in 2013 about lawyers finding better, uh, career paths for 28 00:01:38,850 --> 00:01:42,720 themselves by looking inward, figuring out what their career identity is. 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,729 So that was, uh, on the market. 30 00:01:44,729 --> 00:01:47,460 It's no longer pub, uh, no longer published. 31 00:01:48,420 --> 00:01:52,110 Uh, so this current book that's coming out is my second book. 32 00:01:52,110 --> 00:01:55,500 I wish I had written a book called Lawyer Brain, but uh, it doesn't exist. 33 00:01:55,860 --> 00:01:56,429 Oh, okay. 34 00:01:56,429 --> 00:01:56,880 Interesting. 35 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:57,420 Good to know. 36 00:01:57,810 --> 00:02:00,870 Uh, although if you found one, please let me know about it. 37 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:03,509 Uh. 38 00:02:04,095 --> 00:02:08,235 You know, it's possible that sleepwalking or sleep book writing is a thing. 39 00:02:09,345 --> 00:02:10,190 I will, we'll find out. 40 00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:11,235 So maybe I wrote it for you. 41 00:02:11,505 --> 00:02:12,525 Yeah, it's possible. 42 00:02:12,795 --> 00:02:17,715 Um, so background, I started out in a family of lawyers. 43 00:02:17,715 --> 00:02:19,335 My grandfather was a lawyer. 44 00:02:19,335 --> 00:02:21,735 My father, aunts, uncles, cousins. 45 00:02:22,245 --> 00:02:26,295 The family was filled with 'em, and it seemed like the only thing that I, a 46 00:02:26,295 --> 00:02:31,485 rational human being in my position would do for a career until I got to law school 47 00:02:31,485 --> 00:02:33,075 in day one, I really didn't like it. 48 00:02:33,225 --> 00:02:36,585 And I stuck it out, but it never got better. 49 00:02:37,095 --> 00:02:41,114 And not being a quitter, I tried lots of different jobs, just kept 50 00:02:41,114 --> 00:02:44,865 changing jobs every 12, 16, 18 months. 51 00:02:45,495 --> 00:02:48,975 And after doing this for a number of years, I finally just realized 52 00:02:49,215 --> 00:02:50,834 I'm banging my head against a wall. 53 00:02:50,834 --> 00:02:51,734 This is not right. 54 00:02:52,454 --> 00:02:56,475 And I stepped back and did some introspection and realized that the 55 00:02:56,475 --> 00:03:01,390 one theme that has always been on my own radar is working with people. 56 00:03:02,265 --> 00:03:07,185 And specifically psychology I, it seems to come naturally to me. 57 00:03:07,185 --> 00:03:08,805 I understand human dynamics. 58 00:03:09,945 --> 00:03:13,995 Kind of innately, um, I pick up things that other people don't. 59 00:03:14,355 --> 00:03:16,995 I'm interested in human dynamics. 60 00:03:17,505 --> 00:03:21,795 I'm interested in both individual psychology and groups, and I'm very 61 00:03:21,795 --> 00:03:24,225 passionate about peak performance. 62 00:03:24,225 --> 00:03:25,815 Well, how do you get the best out of people? 63 00:03:25,815 --> 00:03:30,525 What do you do to bring people from okay, and middling to, gee, 64 00:03:30,525 --> 00:03:31,905 I didn't believe I could do that. 65 00:03:32,430 --> 00:03:37,799 So I love the, the peak end of, uh, you know, bringing out the best in people. 66 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:44,730 And along the way, I, uh, partly when I was trying to figure out my own, uh, 67 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:50,820 path as I was leaving the law, I went through some career counseling with some, 68 00:03:50,910 --> 00:03:54,390 with a pair of brothers that were doing career counseling, two psychologists, 69 00:03:55,380 --> 00:03:57,030 and they gave me the Myers-Briggs. 70 00:03:58,170 --> 00:04:00,000 And they looked at the test scores. 71 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,470 They said, well, you know, you should be a lawyer. 72 00:04:01,470 --> 00:04:02,610 And I said, well, I am a lawyer. 73 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000 It's not, not very helpful to get that kind of feedback. 74 00:04:06,780 --> 00:04:09,810 And they then explained why they thought that was true. 75 00:04:09,810 --> 00:04:14,700 And I understood from their explanation it, it did fit in some ways. 76 00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:20,850 But the main takeaway from that story is not that I learned about my career, 77 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,260 but I fell in love with the tool. 78 00:04:23,430 --> 00:04:25,500 And I started using the Myers-Briggs. 79 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:26,580 I got certified in it. 80 00:04:26,580 --> 00:04:29,010 I started using it with people that I knew. 81 00:04:29,790 --> 00:04:31,770 I started testing clients. 82 00:04:31,830 --> 00:04:36,090 I started a, a career counseling practice, which took off. 83 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:41,460 Uh, it took off mainly because it was just the right timing. 84 00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:47,340 And one day I got a call from a reporter from Time Magazine who said, you know, um, 85 00:04:47,610 --> 00:04:51,120 we've heard about, you're doing this thing called career counseling for lawyers. 86 00:04:51,855 --> 00:04:54,915 If people keep coming to you, there must be some story there. 87 00:04:56,055 --> 00:05:00,915 And, and it was the story about the, uh, during the late 1980s, there was 88 00:05:00,915 --> 00:05:08,145 enormous lawyer dissatisfaction and, uh, that seemed to be fueling that practice. 89 00:05:09,075 --> 00:05:13,965 I used that career counseling practice to pay my way through graduate school when 90 00:05:13,965 --> 00:05:18,525 I earned my PhD, which I got in 1994. 91 00:05:19,275 --> 00:05:20,415 Um, and. 92 00:05:21,660 --> 00:05:26,550 Two years after that, uh, and my dissertation research was actually 93 00:05:26,550 --> 00:05:30,870 a nationwide study of lawyers and their Myers-Briggs types, 94 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:38,100 and I had, uh, received the, the endorsement of the American Bar 95 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:39,960 Association when I did that study. 96 00:05:40,860 --> 00:05:43,680 And they actually gave me access to their database so I could do a 97 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,530 statistically random sample of US lawyers. 98 00:05:47,100 --> 00:05:49,410 We had about 3000 lawyers in the study. 99 00:05:50,775 --> 00:05:55,005 And what I learned from that dissertation study is that the people 100 00:05:55,005 --> 00:05:58,545 who go into law are dramatically different from other people in 101 00:05:58,545 --> 00:06:00,375 very systematic, predictable ways. 102 00:06:00,975 --> 00:06:06,045 And those differences, those personality traits equip us to practice high 103 00:06:06,045 --> 00:06:11,055 quality law, but also impose some very, very steep challenges in. 104 00:06:12,045 --> 00:06:17,055 In terms of wellbeing, in terms of coping with change, in terms of, uh, 105 00:06:17,385 --> 00:06:19,545 overall ability to relate to others. 106 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,315 It, it just, it's a two-edged sword and that fascinated me. 107 00:06:25,245 --> 00:06:31,875 Two years after I earned my doctorate, some very, uh, serious researchers 108 00:06:32,175 --> 00:06:35,985 who had a lot of credibility published a series of articles. 109 00:06:36,555 --> 00:06:41,955 That challenge the scientific validity behind the Myers-Briggs. 110 00:06:42,735 --> 00:06:46,125 And it was somewhat controversial 'cause there were a lot of Myers-Briggs 111 00:06:46,125 --> 00:06:52,035 supporters and, and yet these scientists were, you know, laying it all out in 112 00:06:52,125 --> 00:06:54,345 scientific terms, what their position was. 113 00:06:55,395 --> 00:07:00,225 And my reaction to that was, I don't know if they're right or not, but I don't 114 00:07:00,225 --> 00:07:04,305 wanna use a tool in my professional work that's surrounded by that controversy. 115 00:07:05,369 --> 00:07:08,460 I wanted something a little more industrial strength, so I looked around 116 00:07:08,460 --> 00:07:13,859 for some other assessment tools that were seen by the corporate world as very 117 00:07:13,859 --> 00:07:19,500 credible, and I narrowed it down to two assessments, the Hogan and the Caliper. 118 00:07:19,919 --> 00:07:24,330 They're both extraordinarily well developed, very accurate, 119 00:07:24,570 --> 00:07:27,385 scientifically valid assessment tools. 120 00:07:28,380 --> 00:07:32,520 I chose the caliper because when I gave it to several hundred lawyers 121 00:07:33,030 --> 00:07:38,610 as kind of a test case, the feedback that they got, they found it much 122 00:07:38,610 --> 00:07:40,470 more useful than the Hogan feedback. 123 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,070 And so I, I put my eggs in that basket. 124 00:07:44,070 --> 00:07:47,640 I've now tested, I don't know, thousands of lawyers with 125 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,520 the caliper, and I use that. 126 00:07:51,750 --> 00:07:59,219 Cper data that, that personality profile of lawyers' personalities as the backbone 127 00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:04,290 of my tailored consulting work that I do with law firms and legal departments. 128 00:08:05,460 --> 00:08:08,219 Well, you mentioned a couple of things in there I found interesting and 129 00:08:08,219 --> 00:08:10,830 so I've, as I, we, we talked about. 130 00:08:11,610 --> 00:08:13,560 Before the, the call started here. 131 00:08:14,340 --> 00:08:19,470 Um, I've sold into the legal industry for almost 20 years, and I've been 132 00:08:19,470 --> 00:08:26,640 an entrepreneur for over 30 and had a lot of interactions with lawyers and, 133 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:32,460 um, in my experience you mentioned coping with change can be a challenge. 134 00:08:32,460 --> 00:08:32,550 Mm-hmm. 135 00:08:32,556 --> 00:08:37,140 And I think this is an extremely relevant topic right now. 136 00:08:37,710 --> 00:08:40,169 There's a lot of debate in. 137 00:08:40,740 --> 00:08:48,569 The industry about the future of law firms and like post transformation. 138 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,880 What does the industry look like Post AI transformation and one of the thing, 139 00:08:53,910 --> 00:08:58,200 one of the biggest challenges I see to law firms, making the leap from where 140 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,120 we are today to where we're gonna be in five years, whatever that looks like, 141 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:04,650 we know it's gonna look very different. 142 00:09:04,650 --> 00:09:06,210 We know it's gonna be tech enabled. 143 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:08,490 Is is the culture. 144 00:09:08,939 --> 00:09:15,209 In law firms is typically very resistant to change for a number of reasons. 145 00:09:15,270 --> 00:09:15,360 Mm-hmm. 146 00:09:15,599 --> 00:09:21,120 And it sounds like even kind of, um, beyond the culture of the firm, 147 00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:27,479 it's really down to the individual strengths and weaknesses of the, of the 148 00:09:27,479 --> 00:09:30,360 people who, who make up the law firm. 149 00:09:30,599 --> 00:09:35,939 How, how strong is that coping with change? 150 00:09:36,645 --> 00:09:41,685 Um, challenge is this one, like, I know you've got some quartiles or 151 00:09:41,685 --> 00:09:46,064 percentiles for certain attributes, but how strong is the resistance 152 00:09:46,064 --> 00:09:47,715 to change in the lawyer mindset? 153 00:09:48,375 --> 00:09:53,115 Well, let's, let's start with this, Ted, human beings resist change to begin with. 154 00:09:53,115 --> 00:09:54,615 Forget about lawyers for a second. 155 00:09:55,425 --> 00:09:58,515 We thrive on predictability. 156 00:09:59,324 --> 00:10:03,194 And the reason that we thrive on predictability is every human 157 00:10:03,194 --> 00:10:06,944 being has a circuit in our brain designed to protect us, which I 158 00:10:06,944 --> 00:10:08,925 informally call the threat circuitry. 159 00:10:09,854 --> 00:10:12,795 And the purpose of that threat circuitry is to scan our environment 160 00:10:12,795 --> 00:10:16,785 24 7, to detect if there's any threat to us that could hurt us or kill us. 161 00:10:17,714 --> 00:10:22,589 The mechanism that the brain uses to detect threat is change. 162 00:10:24,765 --> 00:10:27,135 So change is inherently the enemy. 163 00:10:27,225 --> 00:10:32,985 Change is inherently the thing that makes our amygdala, the organs in 164 00:10:32,985 --> 00:10:38,745 our brain that that scan for threat makes them fire off and go, uhoh, you 165 00:10:38,745 --> 00:10:43,185 better turn your attention to this, and it hijacks part of our attention. 166 00:10:43,575 --> 00:10:48,375 Now, the problem with hijacking our attention is that attention is a 167 00:10:48,375 --> 00:10:51,915 cognitive resource, and that's partly what lawyers rely on to do our work. 168 00:10:53,354 --> 00:10:57,255 If my job as I'm a gardener, yeah, losing a little cognitive resource 169 00:10:57,255 --> 00:10:58,395 isn't gonna hurt me that much. 170 00:10:58,395 --> 00:11:03,495 But if my practice is practicing law, if my job's practicing law and my threat 171 00:11:03,495 --> 00:11:08,114 circuit takes part of my cognitive resources to answer questions about 172 00:11:08,114 --> 00:11:12,375 what's the nature of the threat I'm facing and that sort of thing, I'm in trouble. 173 00:11:13,155 --> 00:11:15,885 And it doesn't tell you, it doesn't, you know, knock on your 174 00:11:15,885 --> 00:11:18,555 door and say, excuse me, Ted, I'm gonna borrow a pound of brain. 175 00:11:18,704 --> 00:11:20,805 It just takes it so. 176 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:27,480 What happens is we all end up feeling distracted and irritable and depleted 177 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,920 without knowing why, and we assign the cause to whatever The most convenient 178 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,520 thing in our environment is, you know, I'm working for the wrong firm, 179 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,620 or I don't like the, my boss or the work I have sucks, or whatever it is. 180 00:11:40,500 --> 00:11:41,819 And often we're wrong. 181 00:11:41,849 --> 00:11:43,410 It's not any of those things. 182 00:11:43,410 --> 00:11:49,170 It's I'm, I'm unhinged because my brain is worrying about some 183 00:11:49,170 --> 00:11:51,390 uncertainty that feels threatening. 184 00:11:52,170 --> 00:11:56,310 And then, and, and I'm still talking about people in general, not lawyers. 185 00:11:56,310 --> 00:11:59,790 So let's up the ante a little bit. 186 00:12:00,719 --> 00:12:06,055 Everything I said has been true for decades, but now we add to it. 187 00:12:06,990 --> 00:12:13,380 A world fueled by AI and technology in general that is accelerating the 188 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:15,600 pace of change to a fairly well. 189 00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:16,949 It's now a hockey stick. 190 00:12:16,949 --> 00:12:18,090 It's going up vertically. 191 00:12:18,990 --> 00:12:20,819 The uncertainty is increasing. 192 00:12:20,819 --> 00:12:25,890 We used to, you know, hear companies talk about doing five-year plans for planning. 193 00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:28,560 Now you're lucky if it's a six month plan. 194 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,120 'cause nobody knows what the future is gonna hold for us. 195 00:12:33,540 --> 00:12:35,490 And the same thing is true with individuals. 196 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,710 We're, we're constantly having to make readjustments and 197 00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:42,360 we're constantly off balance. 198 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:48,240 We're constantly, um, not getting what scientists call the homeostasis 199 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,710 that we need, the sense of equilibrium of I can relax because 200 00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:54,900 I'm in a predictable environment. 201 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:56,340 We don't have that anymore. 202 00:12:57,705 --> 00:13:01,455 That's baseline for people in general today because of all of 203 00:13:01,455 --> 00:13:02,775 the change that we're dealing with. 204 00:13:03,495 --> 00:13:08,355 Lawyers suffer more under such a circumstance than people in 205 00:13:08,355 --> 00:13:11,115 general do for a couple of reasons. 206 00:13:11,115 --> 00:13:15,645 One I already mentioned, which is that we're using our intellect as our 207 00:13:15,645 --> 00:13:20,595 main engine for practicing law, and it's that intellect that is partly 208 00:13:20,595 --> 00:13:25,545 hijacked by the amygdala to cope with the threat that it's detecting. 209 00:13:26,175 --> 00:13:26,985 Number two. 210 00:13:27,660 --> 00:13:32,580 My research over the years has identified seven atypical personality traits out of 211 00:13:32,580 --> 00:13:35,670 the 21 that the caliper profile measures. 212 00:13:36,510 --> 00:13:43,500 And when you look at any occupation, all 21 of those traits, an 213 00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:49,230 individual can score anywhere from one to 99% on each of the traits. 214 00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:50,130 So. 215 00:13:51,075 --> 00:13:52,155 Anything's possible. 216 00:13:52,755 --> 00:13:59,865 But when you take an average, like almost any other, uh, data of a similar type, 217 00:14:00,225 --> 00:14:03,585 you get a large enough sample and it's gonna start looking like a bell curve 218 00:14:03,585 --> 00:14:07,575 where the majority of the scores tend to be in the middle and fewer are out 219 00:14:07,575 --> 00:14:09,495 in the wings, really high in low scores. 220 00:14:09,495 --> 00:14:13,215 And that's what you see when you test any occupation. 221 00:14:13,215 --> 00:14:16,455 If we tested accountants or, or bus drivers. 222 00:14:17,505 --> 00:14:22,185 On each of the 21 traits, you'd see individual variation all over the map. 223 00:14:23,085 --> 00:14:28,485 And if you averaged the average bus driver scores on skepticism, the average bus 224 00:14:28,485 --> 00:14:35,025 driver scores on, uh, urgency, you'd see the bell curve with the average somewhere 225 00:14:35,025 --> 00:14:37,335 around 50, 40 something, 50 something. 226 00:14:37,755 --> 00:14:42,465 It'd be in the middle, and that'd be true for every one of the 21 traits, 227 00:14:42,675 --> 00:14:44,505 and that's true for every occupation. 228 00:14:45,285 --> 00:14:51,645 Sound of screeching brakes, Ted, but one, and that one is the legal profession. 229 00:14:51,885 --> 00:14:56,235 We have seven of the 21 that are below 40 or above 60. 230 00:14:56,235 --> 00:15:00,855 The average for that trait is below 40 or above 60, and six of those have 231 00:15:00,855 --> 00:15:05,415 been constant outliers since I started measuring these data in the nineties. 232 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:11,730 And one of them, empathy was always low, but never quite qualified as an outlier. 233 00:15:11,730 --> 00:15:16,980 But it's dropped below that solidly, um, for the last number of years, 234 00:15:17,130 --> 00:15:19,170 and there's a good reason for that. 235 00:15:19,170 --> 00:15:26,880 I'll come back to, but the point is, these seven traits, these atypical traits, equip 236 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,944 lawyers to practice high quality law. 237 00:15:28,944 --> 00:15:29,505 I'll give you an example. 238 00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:33,090 One of the biggest outlier traits is skepticism. 239 00:15:33,090 --> 00:15:35,760 The average skepticism for the public is 50%. 240 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:41,130 Skepticism is a trait that you could be, you know, it's, it's what it sounds like. 241 00:15:41,370 --> 00:15:46,590 A skeptical person is somebody who's vigilant about information and people. 242 00:15:47,655 --> 00:15:52,515 Vigilance about information makes you kind of go, well, you make an assertion. 243 00:15:52,515 --> 00:15:54,705 And I go, well, I'm not sure that's true, Ted. 244 00:15:55,395 --> 00:15:57,135 Uh, or what's your proof for that? 245 00:15:57,225 --> 00:15:59,325 Or I focus on the 5%. 246 00:15:59,325 --> 00:16:02,685 That's not true, even though there's 95% that is true. 247 00:16:03,285 --> 00:16:07,215 Or I start questioning things instead of accepting them and 248 00:16:07,215 --> 00:16:08,444 giving you the benefit of the doubt. 249 00:16:08,444 --> 00:16:09,375 That's skepticism. 250 00:16:09,375 --> 00:16:13,575 And then interpersonal skepticism is, what's your real agenda 251 00:16:13,575 --> 00:16:14,600 in asking me that question? 252 00:16:15,375 --> 00:16:15,645 Right. 253 00:16:15,645 --> 00:16:17,475 You start questioning somebody's motives. 254 00:16:18,285 --> 00:16:25,185 All of these mental gymnastics are helpful to a lawyer who wants to be a 255 00:16:25,185 --> 00:16:29,895 high quality practitioner because their job is to pre protect their clients, 256 00:16:30,075 --> 00:16:35,025 in many cases from future harms, in some cases, to repair existing harms. 257 00:16:35,595 --> 00:16:40,425 But we're always trying to ask questions about what could hurt our client. 258 00:16:41,295 --> 00:16:44,865 And what can we do to avoid those harms in the future? 259 00:16:45,045 --> 00:16:49,515 So skepticism is a very essential, necessary thing, and we're trained 260 00:16:49,515 --> 00:16:51,105 to think skeptically in law school. 261 00:16:51,615 --> 00:16:52,995 So that's a plus for us. 262 00:16:53,235 --> 00:16:53,865 Here's the problem. 263 00:16:55,230 --> 00:16:57,630 The training doesn't stop in law school. 264 00:16:57,930 --> 00:17:02,280 We get out into practice and every single day that we practice law, we're 265 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,230 exercising that skepticism muscle. 266 00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:07,350 We're using it, we're getting rewarded for it socially. 267 00:17:07,530 --> 00:17:09,630 We're getting rewarded for it economically. 268 00:17:09,870 --> 00:17:12,360 We're getting rewarded for it by having conversations with 269 00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:13,680 our colleagues that reinforce. 270 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,950 Yeah, that's a great way to think about great analysis of that case 271 00:17:16,950 --> 00:17:22,829 issue, and the skepticism pays off, and so it's a prized quality. 272 00:17:23,580 --> 00:17:26,160 Now the opposite of skepticism is trust. 273 00:17:27,180 --> 00:17:29,280 So what could possibly go wrong there? 274 00:17:30,030 --> 00:17:33,750 That means we're not really good at building and sustaining 275 00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:35,490 trust and trustworthiness. 276 00:17:35,970 --> 00:17:39,960 So all the other roles that we play, which happen to need trust. 277 00:17:40,665 --> 00:17:46,515 Leadership, supervision, mentoring colleague, rainmaking, client retention. 278 00:17:46,725 --> 00:17:48,795 They all require relationship building. 279 00:17:48,975 --> 00:17:50,415 They all require trust. 280 00:17:50,715 --> 00:17:55,005 And the more skeptical I am in any of those roles, the more I inhibit my 281 00:17:55,005 --> 00:17:59,625 effectiveness in that role, the more I, you know, mitigate any followership. 282 00:17:59,655 --> 00:18:04,065 If I'm in a leadership role, the more I make people untrustworthy of me. 283 00:18:04,065 --> 00:18:05,445 Oh, Larry's kind of skeptical. 284 00:18:05,445 --> 00:18:06,735 I'm not sure I'm gonna follow him. 285 00:18:07,575 --> 00:18:07,995 So. 286 00:18:08,745 --> 00:18:10,905 It works just the opposite in those roles. 287 00:18:11,745 --> 00:18:15,225 And if you're a lawyer in a leadership role, you've gotta, 288 00:18:15,285 --> 00:18:18,405 you know, you kind of got one hand in in fire and the other in ice. 289 00:18:18,915 --> 00:18:21,405 And you've gotta figure out, how do I be skeptical in this 290 00:18:21,405 --> 00:18:23,415 one role that is my lawyer role. 291 00:18:24,135 --> 00:18:27,225 And then how do I turn that off and become trusting in these other roles? 292 00:18:27,555 --> 00:18:29,325 And the short answer is, most don't. 293 00:18:30,345 --> 00:18:35,445 Most of us keep the skepticism in all of our roles and we pay a price for that. 294 00:18:36,510 --> 00:18:39,480 So change is one of the prices that we pay. 295 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:46,590 If I am highly skeptical, if I'm highly autonomous, if I'm very low 296 00:18:46,590 --> 00:18:50,550 on sociability, I'm not comfortable with disclosure and intimacy, 297 00:18:51,419 --> 00:18:52,770 I can be a very good lawyer. 298 00:18:53,610 --> 00:18:57,810 But when it comes to change that the things that help us cope with 299 00:18:57,810 --> 00:19:00,750 change, number one is relationships. 300 00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:04,500 People who have strong, authentic. 301 00:19:05,370 --> 00:19:12,240 Vulnerable relationships that are steady and, and the kind you can count on. 302 00:19:13,139 --> 00:19:15,780 It's like a, a, a dampening agent. 303 00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:21,659 It allows us to ride the wave with change and uncertainty and stay 304 00:19:21,659 --> 00:19:23,879 stable and feel psychologically safe. 305 00:19:23,879 --> 00:19:28,139 But people who are lonely, people who are isolated, don't have that 306 00:19:28,139 --> 00:19:33,899 cushion, and all of the lawyer traits to an extent undermine relationships. 307 00:19:34,754 --> 00:19:38,235 Who wants to hang out with a skeptical person, right? 308 00:19:38,264 --> 00:19:39,014 Start with that. 309 00:19:39,465 --> 00:19:42,615 Somebody who's highly autonomous, how's that gonna work in a relationship? 310 00:19:43,215 --> 00:19:46,185 You know, you wanna go, uh, Italian or Chinese? 311 00:19:46,185 --> 00:19:47,385 I think we should go Chinese. 312 00:19:47,385 --> 00:19:48,345 Well, I don't like Chinese. 313 00:19:48,345 --> 00:19:51,345 Well, we're going Chinese, right? 314 00:19:51,705 --> 00:19:55,245 Um, do you, do you, uh, how about urgency? 315 00:19:55,635 --> 00:19:59,445 I'm trying to speak and feel like you heard me and you. 316 00:19:59,879 --> 00:20:01,410 Cut me off in the middle of my sentence. 317 00:20:01,410 --> 00:20:02,490 'cause you're a smart person. 318 00:20:02,490 --> 00:20:03,870 You think you know where I'm going with it. 319 00:20:04,740 --> 00:20:08,610 Well, you may be right academically, but you've lost the relationship. 320 00:20:08,610 --> 00:20:10,350 I now feel dissed. 321 00:20:10,350 --> 00:20:14,580 I feel you haven't heard me and you've soured the relationship. 322 00:20:15,210 --> 00:20:18,510 The divorce rate for lawyers is one and a half times the general 323 00:20:18,510 --> 00:20:21,520 public's divorce rate, so Wow. 324 00:20:22,695 --> 00:20:25,305 I won't go through each of the seven traits, but you get the point. 325 00:20:25,305 --> 00:20:29,985 These traits work for practicing law, but they undercut our ability to 326 00:20:29,985 --> 00:20:35,925 form healthy relationships, which is one of the most important, uh, shock 327 00:20:35,925 --> 00:20:38,325 absorbers for coping with change. 328 00:20:38,835 --> 00:20:44,955 In addition, um, the, the ability to channel positive emotions 329 00:20:44,955 --> 00:20:46,335 is another shock absorber. 330 00:20:47,025 --> 00:20:50,445 People who are optimistic tend to cope with change far better 331 00:20:50,445 --> 00:20:51,855 than people who are pessimistic. 332 00:20:52,425 --> 00:20:56,475 Which end of that scale do you think people trained in skepticism end up on? 333 00:20:58,845 --> 00:20:59,265 That's good question. 334 00:20:59,265 --> 00:21:01,695 It kind of answers, it kind of answers itself, right? 335 00:21:01,725 --> 00:21:01,995 Yeah. 336 00:21:02,130 --> 00:21:08,055 The, the pessimism is the first cousin to skepticism, and so we 337 00:21:08,055 --> 00:21:12,615 tend to be suspicious of optimists, not only, not optimistic ourselves, 338 00:21:12,615 --> 00:21:14,235 but suspicious of optimists. 339 00:21:15,285 --> 00:21:16,605 What are you really after? 340 00:21:16,605 --> 00:21:17,025 Right? 341 00:21:18,255 --> 00:21:23,415 Um, and, and we call it, we don't say I'm pessimistic, we say I'm realistic. 342 00:21:25,125 --> 00:21:26,805 That's the euphemism that we always use. 343 00:21:27,345 --> 00:21:31,155 But what it really means is, and, and your brain knows that you're 344 00:21:31,155 --> 00:21:36,045 just using semantics to escape the truth here to your brain. 345 00:21:36,375 --> 00:21:40,245 'cause we have a way of telling whether you're optimistic or pessimistic. 346 00:21:40,515 --> 00:21:44,235 You can look in a lab at the hormones that your body's generating. 347 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:50,070 And if you're generating cortisol and neo epinephrine and the other 348 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,210 nasty chemicals come out when you're in the fight or flight mode, the 349 00:21:54,210 --> 00:21:57,840 what's called the sympathetic nervous system, those hormones are testable. 350 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,149 We can see when you're in a stressful mode. 351 00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:04,710 So you can say all you want, uh, I'm being realistic, but if you're 352 00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:09,330 producing cortisol, um, your brain thinks you're pessimistic. 353 00:22:10,545 --> 00:22:14,385 If you're producing endorphins and serotonin and oxytocin, your brain 354 00:22:14,385 --> 00:22:15,555 thinks you're being optimistic. 355 00:22:15,764 --> 00:22:17,145 That's what the bottom line is. 356 00:22:17,145 --> 00:22:18,825 What are the hormones that you're producing? 357 00:22:18,855 --> 00:22:24,764 It's a chemical equation, and so all the verbal ledger domain is irrelevant 358 00:22:25,545 --> 00:22:29,745 because your health depends on producing the hormones that are gonna be beneficial. 359 00:22:30,045 --> 00:22:32,080 People who produce positive hormones live longer. 360 00:22:33,014 --> 00:22:34,635 They have better lasting relationships. 361 00:22:34,635 --> 00:22:36,135 These things are all interconnected. 362 00:22:36,645 --> 00:22:40,334 They, they tend to be more resourceful in coping with change. 363 00:22:40,935 --> 00:22:43,935 They tend to have, uh, less absences from work. 364 00:22:43,935 --> 00:22:45,945 They get common colds less frequently. 365 00:22:45,975 --> 00:22:48,855 They tend to be happier overall in life satisfaction. 366 00:22:49,155 --> 00:22:53,925 There's a whole bunch of payoffs that happen when people are channeling positive 367 00:22:53,925 --> 00:22:56,024 emotions that produce positive hormones. 368 00:22:56,955 --> 00:22:59,620 Lawyers are really good at channeling negative hormones. 369 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:02,730 It doesn't have to be that way. 370 00:23:02,730 --> 00:23:05,550 There are ways, and part of what I tried to do in, in this book 371 00:23:05,550 --> 00:23:09,180 is to explain what are the things that are within your control. 372 00:23:09,180 --> 00:23:13,290 Even if you can't control the sources of change, you can control how you 373 00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:18,855 metabolize that change, how the effect lands on you, and you can metabolize 374 00:23:18,855 --> 00:23:23,430 it by having a more optimistic framework for looking at the change. 375 00:23:23,430 --> 00:23:27,000 You can metabolize it by building more relationships that are 376 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,440 shock absorbers and so forth. 377 00:23:29,715 --> 00:23:33,344 Has, uh, have you looked at the lifespan of lawyers? 378 00:23:33,824 --> 00:23:34,455 Is it lower? 379 00:23:34,544 --> 00:23:37,905 Uh, I don't, that'd be a really interesting research question. 380 00:23:37,965 --> 00:23:38,024 Yeah. 381 00:23:38,024 --> 00:23:39,524 I don't know any data on that. 382 00:23:41,294 --> 00:23:45,344 Yeah, I'm, I'm curious because the way you're describing sounds like 383 00:23:45,344 --> 00:23:50,175 there would be a potential correlation there between lifespan and these, 384 00:23:50,175 --> 00:23:52,004 this, this pessimistic mindset. 385 00:23:52,665 --> 00:23:55,815 There is in the general research, when you don't look at lawyers, but you look 386 00:23:55,815 --> 00:23:57,945 at research in the general population. 387 00:23:58,395 --> 00:24:02,625 Um, there are some studies, there's, there's one study, uh, that was 388 00:24:02,925 --> 00:24:07,965 very interesting study done in 1998 where they found, um, some notebooks 389 00:24:08,054 --> 00:24:11,745 that had been squirreled away by some cloistered nuns in Baltimore. 390 00:24:12,540 --> 00:24:16,679 And the scientists, social scientists came along and, and looked at these diaries 391 00:24:16,679 --> 00:24:23,129 and had graduate students go through the diaries and code the diaries for optimism 392 00:24:23,129 --> 00:24:25,770 and pessimism and for relationships. 393 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,870 And what they found is that the top quartile of the nuns, the most positive, 394 00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:36,240 optimistic nuns live 10 years longer than the most negative 10 years. 395 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,115 We're not talking like a month or two, we're talking 10 years difference. 396 00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:41,520 Wow. 397 00:24:41,550 --> 00:24:41,820 Yeah. 398 00:24:41,820 --> 00:24:44,820 It sounds like being a lawyer could be hazardous to your 399 00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:46,770 health and your marriage. 400 00:24:46,770 --> 00:24:47,280 It can be. 401 00:24:47,670 --> 00:24:48,000 Yeah. 402 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:48,390 It can be. 403 00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:52,830 There's, there's been studies in the last, uh, couple of decades, a 404 00:24:52,830 --> 00:24:56,220 couple recently, and then some, going back to the nineties and the early 405 00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:57,665 two thousands where they looked at. 406 00:24:58,305 --> 00:25:03,585 Depression lawyers are almost four times as depressed as the general population, 407 00:25:04,005 --> 00:25:05,685 one and a half times divorce rate. 408 00:25:05,685 --> 00:25:10,035 I've already mentioned there was a study in 2019 that showed that we 409 00:25:10,065 --> 00:25:15,555 were number 160 when they ranked least to most lonely occupations. 410 00:25:15,555 --> 00:25:17,745 We were the most lonely at a hundred 60th. 411 00:25:18,255 --> 00:25:18,645 Um. 412 00:25:19,395 --> 00:25:20,835 So there's lots of data. 413 00:25:20,985 --> 00:25:26,774 Uh, Patrick Krill did a study in 2016 about lawyer drinking, showing that we're 414 00:25:27,074 --> 00:25:31,155 off the charts, especially first 10 years out of school in terms of alcoholism. 415 00:25:31,935 --> 00:25:36,014 Um, so there's lots of indicia that the stress is affecting 416 00:25:36,014 --> 00:25:37,425 lawyers in a negative way. 417 00:25:38,790 --> 00:25:41,399 My whole point here is it doesn't have to be that way. 418 00:25:41,399 --> 00:25:45,480 There are tools that are available to us that can help us adjust 419 00:25:45,870 --> 00:25:47,760 how we cope with these stressors. 420 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,480 We can't control the stressor soars in many cases, but we definitely 421 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,200 can control our reaction to them, and that matters hugely. 422 00:25:57,090 --> 00:26:04,020 So the, um, I wrote a, a LinkedIn post about eight months ago, and I did what 423 00:26:04,020 --> 00:26:07,500 I thought was an interesting comparison and it, it seemed to get some traction. 424 00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:08,850 I think I tagged you in it. 425 00:26:09,390 --> 00:26:14,940 It was about, I took the five traits of an innovator as described by Mark Andreessen. 426 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:21,930 This wasn't a scientific, this wasn't scientific data he was articulating. 427 00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:24,660 It was anecdotal observations, but I think. 428 00:26:25,379 --> 00:26:30,929 If anybody knows what the traits of an innovator would look like, he'd, he'd 429 00:26:30,929 --> 00:26:36,030 be at the top of the list with, you know, his, he invented the web browser. 430 00:26:36,090 --> 00:26:40,860 He has arguably the most successful venture fund in Silicon Valley. 431 00:26:41,429 --> 00:26:47,189 Um, he talked about, uh, the five, his, um, five traits for an 432 00:26:47,189 --> 00:26:52,530 innovator are open, being open to many new kinds of ideas, not lawyers. 433 00:26:53,115 --> 00:26:55,965 High level of conscientiousness that is lawyers. 434 00:26:55,965 --> 00:26:56,685 Mm-hmm. 435 00:26:56,745 --> 00:26:58,635 High, high and disagreeableness. 436 00:26:58,665 --> 00:27:00,045 That's definitely lawyers. 437 00:27:00,525 --> 00:27:01,305 Uh, no, it's not high, 438 00:27:04,155 --> 00:27:08,530 high IQ lawyers and high in resilience, which is not lawyers. 439 00:27:08,535 --> 00:27:08,925 Not lawyers. 440 00:27:09,555 --> 00:27:09,765 Yeah. 441 00:27:09,795 --> 00:27:15,105 So, you know, so 60% alignment, 40% misalignment. 442 00:27:15,190 --> 00:27:15,610 Mm-hmm. 443 00:27:15,690 --> 00:27:16,810 And I talk a lot about. 444 00:27:18,105 --> 00:27:22,635 How I think that law firms, especially now, given where we're at, I was saying 445 00:27:22,635 --> 00:27:31,845 this pre ai, I think that law firms should really consider putting non-lawyers in the 446 00:27:31,845 --> 00:27:35,865 chief innovation roles that are driving innovation for a number of reasons. 447 00:27:36,225 --> 00:27:39,430 Um, first and foremost, it's um. 448 00:27:40,995 --> 00:27:47,145 You know, aside from just the personality traits, um, it's a, it's a, coming 449 00:27:47,145 --> 00:27:53,385 from different industries and having new ideas about an approach or, um, 450 00:27:53,655 --> 00:27:58,755 different experiences with, you know, technology and, and different sets of 451 00:27:58,755 --> 00:28:02,175 stakeholders and bringing new ideas, I think is a very healthy thing when 452 00:28:02,175 --> 00:28:03,615 you're talking about innovation. 453 00:28:04,215 --> 00:28:07,365 And if you look across the board. 454 00:28:07,814 --> 00:28:14,745 Um, I would say maybe one out of 10, uh, chief innovation officers are non-lawyers. 455 00:28:15,225 --> 00:28:15,314 Mm-hmm. 456 00:28:15,554 --> 00:28:19,155 Um, there's some really good ones that have gotten a lot of recognition, but 457 00:28:19,635 --> 00:28:23,804 I've been advocating for law firms to maybe think differently, especially 458 00:28:23,804 --> 00:28:29,024 as we enter into this era where legal services will be tech enabled. 459 00:28:29,054 --> 00:28:30,465 There will be a large component. 460 00:28:30,855 --> 00:28:32,895 I think that having those additional. 461 00:28:33,765 --> 00:28:35,715 Perspectives could add a lot of value. 462 00:28:36,075 --> 00:28:41,895 But you know, one, one thing that, one challenge that a non-lawyer has in that 463 00:28:41,895 --> 00:28:43,995 seat is they're not part of the guild. 464 00:28:44,565 --> 00:28:44,835 Right. 465 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:45,130 That's right. 466 00:28:45,130 --> 00:28:45,285 Right. 467 00:28:45,285 --> 00:28:46,815 They don't have the golden ring. 468 00:28:47,055 --> 00:28:51,825 And, um, and that creates some headwinds in terms of credibility, I 469 00:28:51,825 --> 00:28:54,555 think, because of their skepticism. 470 00:28:55,515 --> 00:28:56,235 Um, mm-hmm. 471 00:28:56,475 --> 00:29:02,445 So, I'm, I, my, I am predicting that as this industry transforms. 472 00:29:03,015 --> 00:29:04,455 We're gonna see more of that. 473 00:29:05,025 --> 00:29:05,655 Um. 474 00:29:06,014 --> 00:29:09,284 But I think that, so if I, if I could, um, I, I both agree with 475 00:29:09,284 --> 00:29:12,225 you and push back a little bit on one component of what you said. 476 00:29:12,735 --> 00:29:14,625 Um, actually two things. 477 00:29:14,745 --> 00:29:20,834 Um, I have a, a nitpick, uh, about the, the term non-lawyers, 478 00:29:20,865 --> 00:29:22,064 and I know that's not yours. 479 00:29:22,064 --> 00:29:25,754 It's used widely throughout the profession, but, um, it's kind of a 480 00:29:25,754 --> 00:29:27,435 chalk on the blackboard thing to me. 481 00:29:27,495 --> 00:29:31,064 And I think the reason that we use that term, that lawyers use it. 482 00:29:32,095 --> 00:29:35,215 Is because we're so low in resilience, low resilience, people 483 00:29:35,215 --> 00:29:37,315 feel a little insecure, right? 484 00:29:37,315 --> 00:29:38,365 And we feel won down. 485 00:29:38,635 --> 00:29:42,445 And one of the ways that you can feel a little bit more, you know, full 486 00:29:42,445 --> 00:29:47,065 of uh, stuff is if you can elevate yourself by putting other people down. 487 00:29:47,985 --> 00:29:50,534 And calling anyone who's not a lawyer. 488 00:29:50,534 --> 00:29:53,024 A non-lawyer is a way of elevating myself. 489 00:29:53,264 --> 00:29:56,475 You don't hear anyone in the medical profession talking about non-doctors. 490 00:29:56,475 --> 00:29:58,064 You don't go to the non-accountants. 491 00:29:58,125 --> 00:29:59,745 You don't go to the non-teacher. 492 00:30:00,314 --> 00:30:02,564 We're the only one that does that, and we're the only one 493 00:30:02,564 --> 00:30:04,574 that has a 90% low resilience. 494 00:30:05,024 --> 00:30:07,905 So it, it kind of fits the puzzle. 495 00:30:07,905 --> 00:30:09,375 So that's my, my nitpick. 496 00:30:09,375 --> 00:30:10,304 And it's not with you. 497 00:30:10,304 --> 00:30:13,155 It's, it's with the industry's use of that term. 498 00:30:13,159 --> 00:30:15,044 We, with you, we all kind of inhaled. 499 00:30:15,554 --> 00:30:16,485 The second thing is. 500 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,090 It's not so much people who aren't lawyers, but people who aren't 501 00:30:21,090 --> 00:30:24,990 typical lawyers because there are a lot of lawyers that have realized. 502 00:30:25,455 --> 00:30:27,735 This law thing is not my best fit. 503 00:30:28,185 --> 00:30:32,415 I'm gonna be better off at, at doing something with my 504 00:30:32,415 --> 00:30:33,795 skills that's a better fit. 505 00:30:34,125 --> 00:30:37,515 And I'll mention two people that I think you, you know, both or know of 506 00:30:37,515 --> 00:30:43,605 both, um, that are great examples of lawyers who are in this space that 507 00:30:43,635 --> 00:30:46,815 are so well suited to this one is Jen Leonard, you've already mentioned. 508 00:30:46,815 --> 00:30:46,905 Mm-hmm. 509 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,260 And Jen. 510 00:30:48,975 --> 00:30:51,735 You know, she's trained as a lawyer, but she doesn't have 511 00:30:51,735 --> 00:30:52,845 the typical lawyer skills. 512 00:30:52,845 --> 00:30:56,805 She has the perfect skills for being an expert in the innovation space, 513 00:30:57,135 --> 00:31:02,715 and she's using her best self to do her best work in this space. 514 00:31:02,925 --> 00:31:06,615 Um, and if we rule out lawyers, you would've lost somebody with her talent. 515 00:31:07,004 --> 00:31:10,185 And the other one is Terry Moders head, um, in Australia. 516 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,860 Although she's really a citizen of the world 'cause she's lived 517 00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:15,540 everywhere except on the moon. 518 00:31:15,630 --> 00:31:18,210 And I'm only saying that 'cause I think she hasn't lived on the moon. 519 00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:23,670 Um, Terry, if you're listening, let me know if you have, um, 'cause she's also 520 00:31:23,670 --> 00:31:26,640 another brilliant person like Jen who, um. 521 00:31:27,215 --> 00:31:30,875 You know, uh, she could probably have 10 lives and come back each 522 00:31:30,875 --> 00:31:34,595 time as an expert in something else 'cause she's so multi-talented. 523 00:31:35,195 --> 00:31:40,895 Um, but she has used her talents to go into the lawyer innovation space as well 524 00:31:41,195 --> 00:31:43,145 in a slightly different way from Jen. 525 00:31:43,145 --> 00:31:48,095 And they're both, um, doing remarkable, remarkable things 526 00:31:48,725 --> 00:31:50,225 that benefit our profession. 527 00:31:50,645 --> 00:31:51,510 So I think they should be. 528 00:31:51,870 --> 00:31:51,929 Yeah. 529 00:31:52,199 --> 00:31:57,090 Highlighted as lawyers who do that not, you know, not in the typical vein 530 00:31:57,090 --> 00:31:58,860 of, of what we think of as lawyers. 531 00:31:59,429 --> 00:31:59,610 Yeah. 532 00:31:59,610 --> 00:32:04,169 And maybe I should clarify what, what I'm advocating against is the requirement 533 00:32:04,439 --> 00:32:06,239 that a lawyer sit in that role. 534 00:32:06,750 --> 00:32:07,199 Um, sure. 535 00:32:07,199 --> 00:32:10,169 I think there's been plenty of innovative lawyers. 536 00:32:10,169 --> 00:32:14,070 I had, uh, Richard Trumans from the artificial lawyer on, and he brought 537 00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:17,909 up, uh, Marty Lipton who invented the poison pill in the eighties, you know. 538 00:32:18,395 --> 00:32:23,645 That was an extreme example of innovation, um, and risk taking. 539 00:32:23,645 --> 00:32:27,995 And um, and you know, my, when he brought that up, my response was, 540 00:32:28,415 --> 00:32:32,495 yeah, but you'd never put, Marty pulled Marty Lipton out of the practice 541 00:32:32,495 --> 00:32:33,935 and into a chief innovation role. 542 00:32:33,935 --> 00:32:36,875 Like maybe he needs to stay in the practice. 543 00:32:36,875 --> 00:32:37,534 And yeah. 544 00:32:37,534 --> 00:32:40,895 So, and I agree with you on the term with non-lawyers, it happens to be. 545 00:32:41,535 --> 00:32:44,625 I think one less syllable than business professionals, but we, we 546 00:32:44,625 --> 00:32:49,785 need to retrain ourselves to, to say business professionals, um, instead of 547 00:32:49,785 --> 00:32:51,915 non-lawyers because it is exclusionary. 548 00:32:51,975 --> 00:32:58,545 And, um, I think the, there's, there's a lot of momentum behind deprecating that 549 00:32:58,545 --> 00:33:00,105 term, which I think is a good thing. 550 00:33:00,705 --> 00:33:00,765 Yeah. 551 00:33:00,765 --> 00:33:00,775 Mm-hmm. 552 00:33:00,775 --> 00:33:05,865 Um, so the, the, um, you, you didn't mention all of them, but 553 00:33:05,865 --> 00:33:07,095 I'll just go through 'em quickly. 554 00:33:07,095 --> 00:33:08,175 Tell me if I get 'em right. 555 00:33:08,505 --> 00:33:09,525 So, lawyers are. 556 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:15,900 Above the mean in skepticism, autonomy, urgency, and abstract reasoning. 557 00:33:16,170 --> 00:33:16,500 That's right. 558 00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:19,980 And below the mean in sociability, resilience and empathy. 559 00:33:20,460 --> 00:33:20,940 Correct. 560 00:33:20,970 --> 00:33:22,050 Right on all counts. 561 00:33:22,770 --> 00:33:29,040 And to what magnitude, um, are they, do they deviate from the mean? 562 00:33:29,775 --> 00:33:33,405 So these numbers jump around 'cause I'm constantly measuring more people. 563 00:33:33,735 --> 00:33:37,755 But, um, I'll give you some averages that are kind of ballpark 564 00:33:37,755 --> 00:33:40,335 averages that, that tell the story. 565 00:33:40,665 --> 00:33:43,035 Skepticism is always on the top end. 566 00:33:43,035 --> 00:33:45,915 It's always, it's gonna be in the high eighties or the low nineties, 567 00:33:45,915 --> 00:33:47,955 something in that 90% range. 568 00:33:48,435 --> 00:33:51,390 Um, and we're always comparing to 50% for the public. 569 00:33:52,635 --> 00:33:56,745 Um, abstract reasoning is in the 80, 81, 80 2%. 570 00:33:56,745 --> 00:33:58,245 It's always hovering around there. 571 00:33:58,725 --> 00:34:02,775 Um, the people who go into law are academically smart. 572 00:34:02,775 --> 00:34:05,055 They're on the higher end of the IQ curve. 573 00:34:05,475 --> 00:34:12,585 And abstract reasoning is a love of using your brain to solve problems 574 00:34:12,585 --> 00:34:13,840 and to stimulate your intellect. 575 00:34:14,955 --> 00:34:21,195 And for many people, loving to argue, um, urgency, it's a little less of an outlier. 576 00:34:21,195 --> 00:34:24,285 It's about 71% compared to 50 for the public. 577 00:34:25,065 --> 00:34:26,565 Um, autonomy. 578 00:34:27,075 --> 00:34:31,185 Um, autonomy is a tricky one because I made up the word. 579 00:34:31,215 --> 00:34:38,085 It's uh, the actual test trait is a flip side trait called external structure, 580 00:34:38,685 --> 00:34:41,085 but that's so academic and obscure. 581 00:34:41,790 --> 00:34:44,430 I thought it's easier to understand the word autonomy. 582 00:34:45,090 --> 00:34:51,330 So the average external structure is 11%, and in my writing I flip 583 00:34:51,330 --> 00:34:53,700 it around, I call it 89% autonomy. 584 00:34:53,700 --> 00:34:54,480 It's the same idea. 585 00:34:55,110 --> 00:34:56,070 What does that mean? 586 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,810 People with high autonomy don't want others telling me what to do. 587 00:35:01,650 --> 00:35:02,325 I want freedom. 588 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,780 To make decisions and choices and, and have a running field. 589 00:35:06,780 --> 00:35:07,980 That's all mine. 590 00:35:08,430 --> 00:35:11,280 I don't want you breathing over my shoulder and telling me what to do. 591 00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:14,700 Uh, and that's rampant in the legal profession. 592 00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:18,150 And by the way, in most of the other professions as well, there's uh, 593 00:35:18,780 --> 00:35:22,410 uh, some research at Harvard that, uh, show that there's six principal 594 00:35:22,410 --> 00:35:24,990 professions that all have high autonomy. 595 00:35:25,590 --> 00:35:27,360 Um, so, but laws. 596 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:28,800 Off the chart. 597 00:35:29,430 --> 00:35:35,850 Um, empathy, uh, it, it used to hover at 41%, which makes it technically 598 00:35:35,850 --> 00:35:38,790 not an outlier 'cause you have to be below 40 to be an outlier. 599 00:35:39,330 --> 00:35:40,860 But it's dropped like a stone. 600 00:35:40,860 --> 00:35:44,160 And the reason is, and it's the only one that's moving. 601 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,330 The other traits, the other six traits are rock steady for 31 years. 602 00:35:49,755 --> 00:35:51,195 So why is empathy dropping? 603 00:35:51,195 --> 00:35:55,485 And the answer is, it's dropping because of the social environment we live in. 604 00:35:55,515 --> 00:35:57,885 'cause it's dropping not just among lawyers, but among 605 00:35:57,885 --> 00:35:59,325 people around the world. 606 00:35:59,925 --> 00:36:05,415 Mainly in the millennial cohort, people age 40 and under, and. 607 00:36:06,134 --> 00:36:11,685 The, the reason that scientists suspect that younger people have less 608 00:36:11,685 --> 00:36:17,025 empathy is because the way we learn empathy mainly is in the school yard. 609 00:36:17,295 --> 00:36:22,125 We go out and we play, and let's say we're playing and you call me a nasty name 610 00:36:22,395 --> 00:36:27,435 and you look at my face and I have this really hurt look on my face, and you go, 611 00:36:27,465 --> 00:36:29,265 oh, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. 612 00:36:29,265 --> 00:36:29,835 I'm sorry. 613 00:36:30,555 --> 00:36:34,395 And you mentally think to yourself, oh, that was a little over the edge. 614 00:36:34,755 --> 00:36:35,115 I'm gonna. 615 00:36:35,879 --> 00:36:39,660 Pull in my comment the next time, and you learn empathy by having 616 00:36:39,660 --> 00:36:41,460 these interactions in the schoolyard. 617 00:36:42,135 --> 00:36:43,545 Well, two things happened. 618 00:36:43,545 --> 00:36:48,045 Number one, schools across the country, because of lots of different reasons, 619 00:36:48,045 --> 00:36:54,165 started pulling in funding for recreation and, and recess, and computers also 620 00:36:54,195 --> 00:36:59,145 made it easier to have recess in the computer room instead of on the blacktop. 621 00:36:59,715 --> 00:37:01,395 And so we didn't have these interactions. 622 00:37:01,725 --> 00:37:05,535 And number two, the rise of technology, especially in the mid nineties. 623 00:37:06,475 --> 00:37:10,495 There's a whole cohort of more the latter end of the millennial court 624 00:37:10,555 --> 00:37:15,145 cohort who mainly communicated with their friends through texting instead 625 00:37:15,145 --> 00:37:16,675 of face-to-face communication. 626 00:37:17,215 --> 00:37:21,865 Texting, you don't see any facial expressions and texting doesn't 627 00:37:21,865 --> 00:37:23,785 convey any emotions very well. 628 00:37:24,615 --> 00:37:29,115 And that those are the two main sources of data that we use to have that 629 00:37:29,115 --> 00:37:33,194 feedback loop, that we can see the effect of emotions on other people, 630 00:37:33,555 --> 00:37:37,305 and so we don't have the course correction, the course correcting 631 00:37:37,365 --> 00:37:39,825 raw material that forms empathy. 632 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,100 And there's a bunch of other things as well, but those, those 633 00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:49,320 factors are probably very central to the decline in empathy. 634 00:37:50,490 --> 00:37:54,240 You know, suffice it to say lawyers are just like all the other young people. 635 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:58,200 Lawyers under age 40 have less empathy. 636 00:37:58,860 --> 00:38:03,810 Um, they're, they're less so empathy's a tricky trait, especially 637 00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:06,840 cognitive empathy, which is about taking the perspective of others. 638 00:38:07,980 --> 00:38:12,510 It's so vital to just about everything we do in the business world, but 639 00:38:12,510 --> 00:38:15,030 it doesn't, it's not visible. 640 00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:18,360 It's hard to see it unless you know what you're looking for. 641 00:38:18,780 --> 00:38:19,950 So I'll give you an example. 642 00:38:20,940 --> 00:38:26,790 If I am, um, a rank and file individual contributor in an organization, a 643 00:38:26,790 --> 00:38:30,990 practicing lawyer, uh, you know, a staff person, whatever, I'm not 644 00:38:30,990 --> 00:38:36,570 in a leadership role and my leader makes some sort of a decision. 645 00:38:37,470 --> 00:38:42,450 Um, if I'm a typical lawyer, as soon as somebody makes a 646 00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:45,810 decision, my autonomy kicks in and I'm like, you want me to what? 647 00:38:47,879 --> 00:38:53,220 Now, if I had high empathy, my autonomy would be wrestling at 648 00:38:53,220 --> 00:38:57,330 this point with my empathy because I'd be going, oh, my leader asked 649 00:38:57,330 --> 00:38:59,190 me to do X. Let me understand. 650 00:38:59,190 --> 00:39:01,230 Why would my leader ask me to do that? 651 00:39:01,290 --> 00:39:03,720 Oh, I see what the leader's trying to accomplish. 652 00:39:04,859 --> 00:39:06,180 I'll try to. 653 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,130 Meet that leader's needs, right? 654 00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:13,980 But if I don't have that empathy, I'm never asking that question. 655 00:39:14,009 --> 00:39:16,320 I'm never asking, what is it that you're asking? 656 00:39:16,350 --> 00:39:18,000 Why are you asking me to do this? 657 00:39:18,450 --> 00:39:21,270 I'm just hearing you want me to do something different from what I'm 658 00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:28,680 doing now and that compromise my autonomy and up yours, so, so empathy 659 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,790 is really, really important, but really hard to see in action, and 660 00:39:32,790 --> 00:39:34,950 it affects everything sociability. 661 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:41,100 One of the lowest, lowest traits I measure the average sociability for the public. 662 00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:42,300 Of course, 50%. 663 00:39:42,690 --> 00:39:47,340 For lawyers, it's 12.5%, and if you're keeping score at 664 00:39:47,340 --> 00:39:49,410 home, a potted plan is 8%. 665 00:39:49,410 --> 00:39:55,050 Just so you have a comparison here, so what is, what is low sociability? 666 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,690 Low sociability means I'm very guarded. 667 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,830 I'm private, I'm emotionally walled off. 668 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,385 I don't want you to see anything about my. 669 00:40:05,415 --> 00:40:09,134 Fears, concerns, worries, private life. 670 00:40:10,185 --> 00:40:12,765 Um, I'm just gonna deal with superficial things. 671 00:40:14,115 --> 00:40:17,294 And so it's hard to form intimate connections, which is the essence 672 00:40:17,294 --> 00:40:20,595 of those protective relationships that I was talking about earlier. 673 00:40:21,165 --> 00:40:23,355 Low sociability is an inhibitor of that. 674 00:40:23,529 --> 00:40:24,990 And then the last one, resilience. 675 00:40:25,689 --> 00:40:27,705 That's what the topic of my book is about. 676 00:40:28,035 --> 00:40:29,205 This is so dramatic. 677 00:40:29,205 --> 00:40:31,230 We're not only 20% lower than the public. 678 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:37,589 Our average is 30 compared to the 50% average, but it's a skewed bell 679 00:40:37,589 --> 00:40:43,259 curve, which means 90%, nine out of 10 lawyers that we measure score 680 00:40:43,259 --> 00:40:45,270 in the bottom half of this scale. 681 00:40:45,779 --> 00:40:49,319 Instead of half of them, 90% of them are in the bottom half. 682 00:40:49,350 --> 00:40:49,859 For what? 683 00:40:49,859 --> 00:40:50,220 Trait? 684 00:40:50,819 --> 00:40:51,690 Resilience. 685 00:40:52,259 --> 00:40:52,950 Oh, resilience. 686 00:40:52,950 --> 00:40:53,339 Gotcha. 687 00:40:53,370 --> 00:40:59,355 In other words, we're thin skinned, we're insecure, we're easily hurt. 688 00:41:00,150 --> 00:41:02,100 By criticism, rejection, stress. 689 00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:04,200 We don't adapt well, we don't cope well. 690 00:41:05,070 --> 00:41:09,390 And just telling lawyers that lawyers are low in resilience makes 691 00:41:09,390 --> 00:41:10,980 a lot of lawyers feel defensive. 692 00:41:11,759 --> 00:41:13,259 That's low resilience at work. 693 00:41:13,830 --> 00:41:17,850 When you, when you get defensive about being res low in resilience, that 694 00:41:17,850 --> 00:41:20,220 kind of tells the story right there. 695 00:41:21,450 --> 00:41:22,350 So Interesting. 696 00:41:22,410 --> 00:41:26,009 Um, do, have you ever watched the show Landman? 697 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:26,940 No. 698 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,180 It's a, it's a show that's very popular. 699 00:41:30,180 --> 00:41:34,680 It's on Paramount now, and they have a lawyer on this show and 700 00:41:34,890 --> 00:41:36,810 the writers must have read. 701 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:43,020 Your work, because she exhibits every trait to the nth degree, extremely 702 00:41:43,020 --> 00:41:49,710 autonomous, uh, highly skeptical, very low empathy, and extremely low resilience. 703 00:41:49,710 --> 00:41:55,710 On the episode last week, somebody set her straight and she was sideways for 704 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,560 a couple of days over the interaction. 705 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:03,600 So, um, yeah, I, that really paints the picture. 706 00:42:04,110 --> 00:42:06,390 Um, and, and obviously like you said, there are. 707 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,430 This is a bell-shaped curve and there are long tails, I would imagine, and plenty 708 00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:13,200 of people who fall outside of that. 709 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:19,350 But for the general population, what you're describing, um, is 710 00:42:19,350 --> 00:42:24,930 where that middle, you know, whatever it is, one or two standard 711 00:42:24,930 --> 00:42:26,520 deviations away from the mean. 712 00:42:27,540 --> 00:42:27,629 Mm-hmm. 713 00:42:28,020 --> 00:42:28,589 Accurate. 714 00:42:29,310 --> 00:42:30,299 Yeah, exactly. 715 00:42:30,359 --> 00:42:30,779 Um. 716 00:42:31,185 --> 00:42:38,325 What I asked you this question when you presented, um, at KM and I, but I, I 717 00:42:38,325 --> 00:42:40,215 want you, I want to ask it again here. 718 00:42:40,965 --> 00:42:48,375 Are these traits born or are they nurtured? 719 00:42:48,435 --> 00:42:52,875 Is this, is this nature or nurture that's, that's really clearly nurture 720 00:42:52,875 --> 00:42:55,275 at a minimum is reinforcing them. 721 00:42:55,725 --> 00:42:56,865 But if you were to test. 722 00:42:57,495 --> 00:43:03,885 Like one Ls, uh, on their way in, would they score the same way or, 723 00:43:04,215 --> 00:43:09,675 um, is, is, is it the, the profession and the reinforcement that really is 724 00:43:09,675 --> 00:43:12,160 creating this divergence from the mean? 725 00:43:13,155 --> 00:43:14,775 So it depends on the trait. 726 00:43:14,805 --> 00:43:16,005 The traits vary on this. 727 00:43:16,005 --> 00:43:20,415 So first of all, every personality trait has some nature and some nurture. 728 00:43:20,865 --> 00:43:24,945 We used to say it was 50 50, but that's before we had data. 729 00:43:25,365 --> 00:43:29,325 And they've done these remarkable studies, um, for the last 30 plus 730 00:43:29,325 --> 00:43:33,525 years where they find identical twins that were separated at birth and they 731 00:43:33,525 --> 00:43:36,015 go and locate them and test them. 732 00:43:36,290 --> 00:43:40,700 Before they reunite them and what they've been able to do because they're 733 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,290 sharing the same genetic material. 734 00:43:43,410 --> 00:43:46,529 Uh, and they also can compare them with dizygotic twins, 735 00:43:46,529 --> 00:43:48,540 with, with, uh, fraternal twins. 736 00:43:48,540 --> 00:43:54,630 So, um, you could see the differences must be due to genetics or to learning. 737 00:43:54,630 --> 00:43:58,650 When you look at those two, uh, uh, you know, variables. 738 00:43:59,165 --> 00:44:04,625 And what they've determined is that most personality traits are considerably more 739 00:44:04,625 --> 00:44:07,625 genetically predisposed than learning. 740 00:44:07,625 --> 00:44:12,035 They both, they all have some of both, but the genetics plays a 741 00:44:12,035 --> 00:44:13,750 stronger role, and that's why we see. 742 00:44:14,705 --> 00:44:17,045 Personality traits tend to be sticky. 743 00:44:17,045 --> 00:44:19,115 They tend to be tenacious over time. 744 00:44:19,625 --> 00:44:23,795 There are examples of, you know, people going through some sort of trauma that 745 00:44:23,795 --> 00:44:28,625 change the trait or slowly changing a trait over time, but you're not gonna 746 00:44:28,625 --> 00:44:32,345 have high skepticism on a Tuesday and low skepticism on a Thursday. 747 00:44:32,525 --> 00:44:34,085 That's, that's not the way it works. 748 00:44:34,620 --> 00:44:39,180 And the, the stability of the traits through time is mainly because of 749 00:44:39,180 --> 00:44:44,310 that, you know, greater proportion of genetics that underlie the traits 750 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:50,430 that said, and so, so if that were the case for all 21 traits, the answer 751 00:44:50,430 --> 00:44:55,020 would have to be, the traits were self-selected on day one of law school. 752 00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:02,010 However, three of the traits on the 21 caliber traits are dramatically 753 00:45:02,010 --> 00:45:03,990 more learned than genetic. 754 00:45:04,740 --> 00:45:08,250 And those three traits all happen to be among the seven outlier 755 00:45:08,250 --> 00:45:09,840 traits for lawyers, interestingly. 756 00:45:10,770 --> 00:45:16,320 And they are empathy, very learned trait resilience. 757 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,440 Also a very learned trait and skepticism. 758 00:45:19,710 --> 00:45:23,100 If you think about it, people are born trusting and they 759 00:45:23,100 --> 00:45:24,780 learn to be skeptical over time. 760 00:45:25,380 --> 00:45:28,770 And then we take that learning to a fairly well in law school. 761 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,215 So those are all. 762 00:45:31,965 --> 00:45:38,085 Um, learn traits, which means no matter where we start as one L is in law school, 763 00:45:38,535 --> 00:45:43,845 um, the experience is gonna have more of a learning impact than for traits that 764 00:45:43,845 --> 00:45:45,975 are largely genetically predisposed. 765 00:45:46,335 --> 00:45:47,715 And it does in fact. 766 00:45:48,135 --> 00:45:53,355 Um, so we don't know exactly where the baseline is to start for one else, but 767 00:45:53,355 --> 00:45:59,985 we do know skepticism in particular, um, is one that we do have some data on and. 768 00:46:00,420 --> 00:46:05,490 Instead of 50% first year law students on average start about 60%. 769 00:46:06,060 --> 00:46:10,980 So there's already something about going to law school that attracts people who 770 00:46:10,980 --> 00:46:12,690 are a little more skeptical than others. 771 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,100 And then as they go through the three years of law school, two things happen. 772 00:46:17,370 --> 00:46:19,920 One, they get trained to think like a lawyer. 773 00:46:20,310 --> 00:46:23,190 Their skepticism goes up because they're getting that training. 774 00:46:23,550 --> 00:46:28,530 And number two, we have reliable data that people with low skepticism scores drop 775 00:46:28,590 --> 00:46:32,880 out of law school at a predictably higher rate than their high scoring brethren. 776 00:46:33,930 --> 00:46:38,670 And so that means it concentrates the high skeptics because you've taken 777 00:46:38,670 --> 00:46:39,960 the bottom out of the bell curve. 778 00:46:40,830 --> 00:46:46,620 So those two things result in a, uh, a score of graduating lawyers 779 00:46:46,860 --> 00:46:49,740 that is not 60%, it's more like 70%. 780 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,110 Now they get into practice and most of my data comes from partners. 781 00:46:55,110 --> 00:46:58,710 So they've spent eight to 10 years practicing law during 782 00:46:58,710 --> 00:46:59,850 that eight to 10 years. 783 00:47:00,090 --> 00:47:02,220 They're using this trait every day. 784 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,450 So by the time I measure them, they've gone from 70 to 90. 785 00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:08,280 Wow. 786 00:47:08,310 --> 00:47:11,790 So yeah, the experience, they, they start with a little bit of. 787 00:47:12,495 --> 00:47:16,935 Uh, you know, self-selection and now the experience is ramping 788 00:47:16,935 --> 00:47:18,405 that up to a fairly well. 789 00:47:18,945 --> 00:47:22,575 Resilience works the exact same way, but in reverse. 790 00:47:22,965 --> 00:47:28,845 Resilience is highly sensitive to your mindset, to your positivity or negativity. 791 00:47:29,775 --> 00:47:34,035 And people who are skeptical have more of a negative mindset, more 792 00:47:34,035 --> 00:47:36,255 of a pessimistic mindset, and that. 793 00:47:36,765 --> 00:47:39,855 It's like a corrosive that tears down our resilience. 794 00:47:39,855 --> 00:47:42,525 So wherever you start at resilience, you're gonna be lower when you 795 00:47:42,525 --> 00:47:46,995 finish law school because the, the skepticism has lowered it. 796 00:47:47,235 --> 00:47:50,805 And when you use skepticism every day, you're, you're taking a 797 00:47:50,805 --> 00:47:54,675 jackhammer and pounding the resilience into the ground every single day. 798 00:47:55,935 --> 00:47:59,625 So, um, you know, that's, that's thing one. 799 00:48:00,105 --> 00:48:02,535 Um, when you talk about empathy. 800 00:48:03,134 --> 00:48:08,865 That's, uh, a little, uh, squirrelier to, to give you an answer on 801 00:48:08,865 --> 00:48:10,095 because it's a newer trait. 802 00:48:10,095 --> 00:48:13,214 We don't have data going back as long as the others. 803 00:48:13,214 --> 00:48:17,384 It's only recently that it's become an outlier and I've been tracking it. 804 00:48:17,895 --> 00:48:24,435 Um, so I can't really answer it as well, but I can say that empathy 805 00:48:24,435 --> 00:48:26,234 starts pretty low with millennials. 806 00:48:27,015 --> 00:48:27,464 Um. 807 00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:31,830 You know, it's, it's what I call the, the whatever response. 808 00:48:31,950 --> 00:48:37,050 Um, you know, should we, should we look at the role of empathy in practicing law? 809 00:48:37,110 --> 00:48:37,770 Eh, whatever. 810 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:45,060 Um, I mean it, you insert your own joke here. 811 00:48:45,660 --> 00:48:50,820 Um, and then, so that, those are the three learned ones, empathy, 812 00:48:50,820 --> 00:48:52,440 resilience, and skepticism. 813 00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:59,460 You know, this, uh, I knew this was gonna be a great podcast because, uh, again, 814 00:48:59,460 --> 00:49:04,740 I write about your, your, your work and I've listened to you speak and I've 815 00:49:04,740 --> 00:49:08,070 listened to others speak about your work. 816 00:49:08,070 --> 00:49:11,550 And it, yeah, it was, it was Jen Leonard, who I had read your paper 817 00:49:11,580 --> 00:49:13,290 with the art group years ago. 818 00:49:13,830 --> 00:49:13,920 Mm-hmm. 819 00:49:14,490 --> 00:49:16,950 Remembered it, but I, it was Jen who. 820 00:49:17,685 --> 00:49:18,855 Connected the dots. 821 00:49:19,245 --> 00:49:22,695 And, um, and then when I got a chance to, uh, see you speak at Cam, and I, I 822 00:49:22,695 --> 00:49:24,225 knew I had to have you on the podcast. 823 00:49:24,735 --> 00:49:27,765 So, um, this has been absolutely fantastic. 824 00:49:27,795 --> 00:49:32,475 Anyone who's not familiar with your work, who's listening today, I'm sure loved it. 825 00:49:32,925 --> 00:49:38,475 Um, how do, as we're wrapping up here, uh, your, your book is, your 826 00:49:38,475 --> 00:49:40,005 new book is called Thin Skinned. 827 00:49:40,380 --> 00:49:44,310 Why lawyers are slow, so low in resilience and the new science that can help. 828 00:49:44,819 --> 00:49:47,610 When does the book come out and, and how can people find it? 829 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,160 It'll come out in the spring. 830 00:49:50,490 --> 00:49:52,410 Uh, we don't have an exact publication date. 831 00:49:52,410 --> 00:49:54,330 It's up to the American Bar Association. 832 00:49:54,810 --> 00:49:59,130 Uh, and when it is scheduled for publication, it'll be both 833 00:49:59,130 --> 00:50:02,670 on the a BA website and on my own lawyer brainin.com website. 834 00:50:03,780 --> 00:50:04,350 Awesome. 835 00:50:04,770 --> 00:50:07,380 Well, Dr. Richard, I really appreciate you taking the time. 836 00:50:07,380 --> 00:50:11,340 I apologize that it took us a year to get this done, but, um, what a treat. 837 00:50:11,340 --> 00:50:12,300 I really enjoyed it. 838 00:50:12,780 --> 00:50:13,500 Thank you, Ted. 839 00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:15,690 Thanks for your persistence and your great questions. 840 00:50:16,260 --> 00:50:16,830 Awesome. 841 00:50:16,860 --> 00:50:17,880 Alright, take care. 842 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:18,840 Thank you. 843 00:50:18,905 --> 00:50:19,485 Bye bye-Bye. 844 00:50:20,355 --> 00:50:22,605 Thanks for listening to Legal Innovation Spotlight. 845 00:50:23,145 --> 00:50:26,654 If you found value in this chat, hit the subscribe button to be notified 846 00:50:26,654 --> 00:50:28,125 when we release new episodes. 847 00:50:28,605 --> 00:50:31,305 We'd also really appreciate it if you could take a moment to rate 848 00:50:31,305 --> 00:50:33,944 us and leave us a review wherever you're listening right now. 849 00:50:34,544 --> 00:50:37,245 Your feedback helps us provide you with top-notch content. 00:00:02,220 Dr. Richard, thanks for joining today. 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:03,870 My pleasure, Ted. 3 00:00:03,870 --> 00:00:04,590 Good to be with you. 4 00:00:05,250 --> 00:00:09,480 Yeah, we've been trying to get this on the calendar now for over a year, and 5 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:14,285 that's largely my fault, but, um, it's great to finally make this thing happen. 6 00:00:15,540 --> 00:00:18,540 Likewise, 2026 maybe is the year for us, huh? 7 00:00:20,580 --> 00:00:23,250 So, um, we got a great agenda. 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,070 You know, I talk about your work all the time on the podcast. 9 00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:30,480 Your, your book lawyer brain, and a lot of the personality traits that 10 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:36,630 you've mapped out with in the legal space over decades, and it just 11 00:00:36,630 --> 00:00:38,640 connects so many dots and really helps. 12 00:00:39,404 --> 00:00:44,415 You know, people like me as a vendor who caters to the legal industry, 13 00:00:44,415 --> 00:00:50,055 understanding the psychology of our target audience and how they think, and, you 14 00:00:50,055 --> 00:00:54,105 know, what their biases are, what their strengths, what their weaknesses are. 15 00:00:54,194 --> 00:00:56,775 It really, it, it's really, really helpful. 16 00:00:56,775 --> 00:01:01,905 So, um, before we get into that, why don't, why don't we, uh, why don't you 17 00:01:02,084 --> 00:01:05,354 just introduce yourself, your, your background, what you're doing today, 18 00:01:05,354 --> 00:01:06,824 and, and then, and that sort of stuff. 19 00:01:07,410 --> 00:01:08,760 Sure, I'll be glad to do that. 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,550 I wanna start first by making a small correction. 21 00:01:11,940 --> 00:01:15,570 Um, I'm flattered that you mentioned my book Lawyer Brain, but I have not written 22 00:01:15,570 --> 00:01:20,580 that book yet, so I don't want your listeners to start burning up the lines 23 00:01:20,580 --> 00:01:22,500 at Amazon for a book that doesn't exist. 24 00:01:23,010 --> 00:01:23,400 Um. 25 00:01:24,570 --> 00:01:29,039 I, I have a book coming out in the spring called Thin Skin, why 26 00:01:29,039 --> 00:01:32,399 Lawyers Are So Low in Resilience and the New Science That Can Help. 27 00:01:32,460 --> 00:01:38,850 And I wrote a book in 2013 about lawyers finding better, uh, career paths for 28 00:01:38,850 --> 00:01:42,720 themselves by looking inward, figuring out what their career identity is. 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,729 So that was, uh, on the market. 30 00:01:44,729 --> 00:01:47,460 It's no longer pub, uh, no longer published. 31 00:01:48,420 --> 00:01:52,110 Uh, so this current book that's coming out is my second book. 32 00:01:52,110 --> 00:01:55,500 I wish I had written a book called Lawyer Brain, but uh, it doesn't exist. 33 00:01:55,860 --> 00:01:56,429 Oh, okay. 34 00:01:56,429 --> 00:01:56,880 Interesting. 35 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:57,420 Good to know. 36 00:01:57,810 --> 00:02:00,870 Uh, although if you found one, please let me know about it. 37 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:03,509 Uh. 38 00:02:04,095 --> 00:02:08,235 You know, it's possible that sleepwalking or sleep book writing is a thing. 39 00:02:09,345 --> 00:02:10,190 I will, we'll find out. 40 00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:11,235 So maybe I wrote it for you. 41 00:02:11,505 --> 00:02:12,525 Yeah, it's possible. 42 00:02:12,795 --> 00:02:17,715 Um, so background, I started out in a family of lawyers. 43 00:02:17,715 --> 00:02:19,335 My grandfather was a lawyer. 44 00:02:19,335 --> 00:02:21,735 My father, aunts, uncles, cousins. 45 00:02:22,245 --> 00:02:26,295 The family was filled with 'em, and it seemed like the only thing that I, a 46 00:02:26,295 --> 00:02:31,485 rational human being in my position would do for a career until I got to law school 47 00:02:31,485 --> 00:02:33,075 in day one, I really didn't like it. 48 00:02:33,225 --> 00:02:36,585 And I stuck it out, but it never got better. 49 00:02:37,095 --> 00:02:41,114 And not being a quitter, I tried lots of different jobs, just kept 50 00:02:41,114 --> 00:02:44,865 changing jobs every 12, 16, 18 months. 51 00:02:45,495 --> 00:02:48,975 And after doing this for a number of years, I finally just realized 52 00:02:49,215 --> 00:02:50,834 I'm banging my head against a wall. 53 00:02:50,834 --> 00:02:51,734 This is not right. 54 00:02:52,454 --> 00:02:56,475 And I stepped back and did some introspection and realized that the 55 00:02:56,475 --> 00:03:01,390 one theme that has always been on my own radar is working with people. 56 00:03:02,265 --> 00:03:07,185 And specifically psychology I, it seems to come naturally to me. 57 00:03:07,185 --> 00:03:08,805 I understand human dynamics. 58 00:03:09,945 --> 00:03:13,995 Kind of innately, um, I pick up things that other people don't. 59 00:03:14,355 --> 00:03:16,995 I'm interested in human dynamics. 60 00:03:17,505 --> 00:03:21,795 I'm interested in both individual psychology and groups, and I'm very 61 00:03:21,795 --> 00:03:24,225 passionate about peak performance. 62 00:03:24,225 --> 00:03:25,815 Well, how do you get the best out of people? 63 00:03:25,815 --> 00:03:30,525 What do you do to bring people from okay, and middling to, gee, 64 00:03:30,525 --> 00:03:31,905 I didn't believe I could do that. 65 00:03:32,430 --> 00:03:37,799 So I love the, the peak end of, uh, you know, bringing out the best in people. 66 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:44,730 And along the way, I, uh, partly when I was trying to figure out my own, uh, 67 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:50,820 path as I was leaving the law, I went through some career counseling with some, 68 00:03:50,910 --> 00:03:54,390 with a pair of brothers that were doing career counseling, two psychologists, 69 00:03:55,380 --> 00:03:57,030 and they gave me the Myers-Briggs. 70 00:03:58,170 --> 00:04:00,000 And they looked at the test scores. 71 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:01,470 They said, well, you know, you should be a lawyer. 72 00:04:01,470 --> 00:04:02,610 And I said, well, I am a lawyer. 73 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000 It's not, not very helpful to get that kind of feedback. 74 00:04:06,780 --> 00:04:09,810 And they then explained why they thought that was true. 75 00:04:09,810 --> 00:04:14,700 And I understood from their explanation it, it did fit in some ways. 76 00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:20,850 But the main takeaway from that story is not that I learned about my career, 77 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,260 but I fell in love with the tool. 78 00:04:23,430 --> 00:04:25,500 And I started using the Myers-Briggs. 79 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:26,580 I got certified in it. 80 00:04:26,580 --> 00:04:29,010 I started using it with people that I knew. 81 00:04:29,790 --> 00:04:31,770 I started testing clients. 82 00:04:31,830 --> 00:04:36,090 I started a, a career counseling practice, which took off. 83 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:41,460 Uh, it took off mainly because it was just the right timing. 84 00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:47,340 And one day I got a call from a reporter from Time Magazine who said, you know, um, 85 00:04:47,610 --> 00:04:51,120 we've heard about, you're doing this thing called career counseling for lawyers. 86 00:04:51,855 --> 00:04:54,915 If people keep coming to you, there must be some story there. 87 00:04:56,055 --> 00:05:00,915 And, and it was the story about the, uh, during the late 1980s, there was 88 00:05:00,915 --> 00:05:08,145 enormous lawyer dissatisfaction and, uh, that seemed to be fueling that practice. 89 00:05:09,075 --> 00:05:13,965 I used that career counseling practice to pay my way through graduate school when 90 00:05:13,965 --> 00:05:18,525 I earned my PhD, which I got in 1994. 91 00:05:19,275 --> 00:05:20,415 Um, and. 92 00:05:21,660 --> 00:05:26,550 Two years after that, uh, and my dissertation research was actually 93 00:05:26,550 --> 00:05:30,870 a nationwide study of lawyers and their Myers-Briggs types, 94 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:38,100 and I had, uh, received the, the endorsement of the American Bar 95 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:39,960 Association when I did that study. 96 00:05:40,860 --> 00:05:43,680 And they actually gave me access to their database so I could do a 97 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,530 statistically random sample of US lawyers. 98 00:05:47,100 --> 00:05:49,410 We had about 3000 lawyers in the study. 99 00:05:50,775 --> 00:05:55,005 And what I learned from that dissertation study is that the people 100 00:05:55,005 --> 00:05:58,545 who go into law are dramatically different from other people in 101 00:05:58,545 --> 00:06:00,375 very systematic, predictable ways. 102 00:06:00,975 --> 00:06:06,045 And those differences, those personality traits equip us to practice high 103 00:06:06,045 --> 00:06:11,055 quality law, but also impose some very, very steep challenges in. 104 00:06:12,045 --> 00:06:17,055 In terms of wellbeing, in terms of coping with change, in terms of, uh, 105 00:06:17,385 --> 00:06:19,545 overall ability to relate to others. 106 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,315 It, it just, it's a two-edged sword and that fascinated me. 107 00:06:25,245 --> 00:06:31,875 Two years after I earned my doctorate, some very, uh, serious researchers 108 00:06:32,175 --> 00:06:35,985 who had a lot of credibility published a series of articles. 109 00:06:36,555 --> 00:06:41,955 That challenge the scientific validity behind the Myers-Briggs. 110 00:06:42,735 --> 00:06:46,125 And it was somewhat controversial 'cause there were a lot of Myers-Briggs 111 00:06:46,125 --> 00:06:52,035 supporters and, and yet these scientists were, you know, laying it all out in 112 00:06:52,125 --> 00:06:54,345 scientific terms, what their position was. 113 00:06:55,395 --> 00:07:00,225 And my reaction to that was, I don't know if they're right or not, but I don't 114 00:07:00,225 --> 00:07:04,305 wanna use a tool in my professional work that's surrounded by that controversy. 115 00:07:05,369 --> 00:07:08,460 I wanted something a little more industrial strength, so I looked around 116 00:07:08,460 --> 00:07:13,859 for some other assessment tools that were seen by the corporate world as very 117 00:07:13,859 --> 00:07:19,500 credible, and I narrowed it down to two assessments, the Hogan and the Caliper. 118 00:07:19,919 --> 00:07:24,330 They're both extraordinarily well developed, very accurate, 119 00:07:24,570 --> 00:07:27,385 scientifically valid assessment tools. 120 00:07:28,380 --> 00:07:32,520 I chose the caliper because when I gave it to several hundred lawyers 121 00:07:33,030 --> 00:07:38,610 as kind of a test case, the feedback that they got, they found it much 122 00:07:38,610 --> 00:07:40,470 more useful than the Hogan feedback. 123 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,070 And so I, I put my eggs in that basket. 124 00:07:44,070 --> 00:07:47,640 I've now tested, I don't know, thousands of lawyers with 125 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,520 the caliper, and I use that. 126 00:07:51,750 --> 00:07:59,219 Cper data that, that personality profile of lawyers' personalities as the backbone 127 00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:04,290 of my tailored consulting work that I do with law firms and legal departments. 128 00:08:05,460 --> 00:08:08,219 Well, you mentioned a couple of things in there I found interesting and 129 00:08:08,219 --> 00:08:10,830 so I've, as I, we, we talked about. 130 00:08:11,610 --> 00:08:13,560 Before the, the call started here. 131 00:08:14,340 --> 00:08:19,470 Um, I've sold into the legal industry for almost 20 years, and I've been 132 00:08:19,470 --> 00:08:26,640 an entrepreneur for over 30 and had a lot of interactions with lawyers and, 133 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:32,460 um, in my experience you mentioned coping with change can be a challenge. 134 00:08:32,460 --> 00:08:32,550 Mm-hmm. 135 00:08:32,556 --> 00:08:37,140 And I think this is an extremely relevant topic right now. 136 00:08:37,710 --> 00:08:40,169 There's a lot of debate in. 137 00:08:40,740 --> 00:08:48,569 The industry about the future of law firms and like post transformation. 138 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,880 What does the industry look like Post AI transformation and one of the thing, 139 00:08:53,910 --> 00:08:58,200 one of the biggest challenges I see to law firms, making the leap from where 140 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,120 we are today to where we're gonna be in five years, whatever that looks like, 141 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:04,650 we know it's gonna look very different. 142 00:09:04,650 --> 00:09:06,210 We know it's gonna be tech enabled. 143 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:08,490 Is is the culture. 144 00:09:08,939 --> 00:09:15,209 In law firms is typically very resistant to change for a number of reasons. 145 00:09:15,270 --> 00:09:15,360 Mm-hmm. 146 00:09:15,599 --> 00:09:21,120 And it sounds like even kind of, um, beyond the culture of the firm, 147 00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:27,479 it's really down to the individual strengths and weaknesses of the, of the 148 00:09:27,479 --> 00:09:30,360 people who, who make up the law firm. 149 00:09:30,599 --> 00:09:35,939 How, how strong is that coping with change? 150 00:09:36,645 --> 00:09:41,685 Um, challenge is this one, like, I know you've got some quartiles or 151 00:09:41,685 --> 00:09:46,064 percentiles for certain attributes, but how strong is the resistance 152 00:09:46,064 --> 00:09:47,715 to change in the lawyer mindset? 153 00:09:48,375 --> 00:09:53,115 Well, let's, let's start with this, Ted, human beings resist change to begin with. 154 00:09:53,115 --> 00:09:54,615 Forget about lawyers for a second. 155 00:09:55,425 --> 00:09:58,515 We thrive on predictability. 156 00:09:59,324 --> 00:10:03,194 And the reason that we thrive on predictability is every human 157 00:10:03,194 --> 00:10:06,944 being has a circuit in our brain designed to protect us, which I 158 00:10:06,944 --> 00:10:08,925 informally call the threat circuitry. 159 00:10:09,854 --> 00:10:12,795 And the purpose of that threat circuitry is to scan our environment 160 00:10:12,795 --> 00:10:16,785 24 7, to detect if there's any threat to us that could hurt us or kill us. 161 00:10:17,714 --> 00:10:22,589 The mechanism that the brain uses to detect threat is change. 162 00:10:24,765 --> 00:10:27,135 So change is inherently the enemy. 163 00:10:27,225 --> 00:10:32,985 Change is inherently the thing that makes our amygdala, the organs in 164 00:10:32,985 --> 00:10:38,745 our brain that that scan for threat makes them fire off and go, uhoh, you 165 00:10:38,745 --> 00:10:43,185 better turn your attention to this, and it hijacks part of our attention. 166 00:10:43,575 --> 00:10:48,375 Now, the problem with hijacking our attention is that attention is a 167 00:10:48,375 --> 00:10:51,915 cognitive resource, and that's partly what lawyers rely on to do our work. 168 00:10:53,354 --> 00:10:57,255 If my job as I'm a gardener, yeah, losing a little cognitive resource 169 00:10:57,255 --> 00:10:58,395 isn't gonna hurt me that much. 170 00:10:58,395 --> 00:11:03,495 But if my practice is practicing law, if my job's practicing law and my threat 171 00:11:03,495 --> 00:11:08,114 circuit takes part of my cognitive resources to answer questions about 172 00:11:08,114 --> 00:11:12,375 what's the nature of the threat I'm facing and that sort of thing, I'm in trouble. 173 00:11:13,155 --> 00:11:15,885 And it doesn't tell you, it doesn't, you know, knock on your 174 00:11:15,885 --> 00:11:18,555 door and say, excuse me, Ted, I'm gonna borrow a pound of brain. 175 00:11:18,704 --> 00:11:20,805 It just takes it so. 176 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:27,480 What happens is we all end up feeling distracted and irritable and depleted 177 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,920 without knowing why, and we assign the cause to whatever The most convenient 178 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,520 thing in our environment is, you know, I'm working for the wrong firm, 179 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,620 or I don't like the, my boss or the work I have sucks, or whatever it is. 180 00:11:40,500 --> 00:11:41,819 And often we're wrong. 181 00:11:41,849 --> 00:11:43,410 It's not any of those things. 182 00:11:43,410 --> 00:11:49,170 It's I'm, I'm unhinged because my brain is worrying about some 183 00:11:49,170 --> 00:11:51,390 uncertainty that feels threatening. 184 00:11:52,170 --> 00:11:56,310 And then, and, and I'm still talking about people in general, not lawyers. 185 00:11:56,310 --> 00:11:59,790 So let's up the ante a little bit. 186 00:12:00,719 --> 00:12:06,055 Everything I said has been true for decades, but now we add to it. 187 00:12:06,990 --> 00:12:13,380 A world fueled by AI and technology in general that is accelerating the 188 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:15,600 pace of change to a fairly well. 189 00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:16,949 It's now a hockey stick. 190 00:12:16,949 --> 00:12:18,090 It's going up vertically. 191 00:12:18,990 --> 00:12:20,819 The uncertainty is increasing. 192 00:12:20,819 --> 00:12:25,890 We used to, you know, hear companies talk about doing five-year plans for planning. 193 00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:28,560 Now you're lucky if it's a six month plan. 194 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,120 'cause nobody knows what the future is gonna hold for us. 195 00:12:33,540 --> 00:12:35,490 And the same thing is true with individuals. 196 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,710 We're, we're constantly having to make readjustments and 197 00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:42,360 we're constantly off balance. 198 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:48,240 We're constantly, um, not getting what scientists call the homeostasis 199 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,710 that we need, the sense of equilibrium of I can relax because 200 00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:54,900 I'm in a predictable environment. 201 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:56,340 We don't have that anymore. 202 00:12:57,705 --> 00:13:01,455 That's baseline for people in general today because of all of 203 00:13:01,455 --> 00:13:02,775 the change that we're dealing with. 204 00:13:03,495 --> 00:13:08,355 Lawyers suffer more under such a circumstance than people in 205 00:13:08,355 --> 00:13:11,115 general do for a couple of reasons. 206 00:13:11,115 --> 00:13:15,645 One I already mentioned, which is that we're using our intellect as our 207 00:13:15,645 --> 00:13:20,595 main engine for practicing law, and it's that intellect that is partly 208 00:13:20,595 --> 00:13:25,545 hijacked by the amygdala to cope with the threat that it's detecting. 209 00:13:26,175 --> 00:13:26,985 Number two. 210 00:13:27,660 --> 00:13:32,580 My research over the years has identified seven atypical personality traits out of 211 00:13:32,580 --> 00:13:35,670 the 21 that the caliper profile measures. 212 00:13:36,510 --> 00:13:43,500 And when you look at any occupation, all 21 of those traits, an 213 00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:49,230 individual can score anywhere from one to 99% on each of the traits. 214 00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:50,130 So. 215 00:13:51,075 --> 00:13:52,155 Anything's possible. 216 00:13:52,755 --> 00:13:59,865 But when you take an average, like almost any other, uh, data of a similar type, 217 00:14:00,225 --> 00:14:03,585 you get a large enough sample and it's gonna start looking like a bell curve 218 00:14:03,585 --> 00:14:07,575 where the majority of the scores tend to be in the middle and fewer are out 219 00:14:07,575 --> 00:14:09,495 in the wings, really high in low scores. 220 00:14:09,495 --> 00:14:13,215 And that's what you see when you test any occupation. 221 00:14:13,215 --> 00:14:16,455 If we tested accountants or, or bus drivers. 222 00:14:17,505 --> 00:14:22,185 On each of the 21 traits, you'd see individual variation all over the map. 223 00:14:23,085 --> 00:14:28,485 And if you averaged the average bus driver scores on skepticism, the average bus 224 00:14:28,485 --> 00:14:35,025 driver scores on, uh, urgency, you'd see the bell curve with the average somewhere 225 00:14:35,025 --> 00:14:37,335 around 50, 40 something, 50 something. 226 00:14:37,755 --> 00:14:42,465 It'd be in the middle, and that'd be true for every one of the 21 traits, 227 00:14:42,675 --> 00:14:44,505 and that's true for every occupation. 228 00:14:45,285 --> 00:14:51,645 Sound of screeching brakes, Ted, but one, and that one is the legal profession. 229 00:14:51,885 --> 00:14:56,235 We have seven of the 21 that are below 40 or above 60. 230 00:14:56,235 --> 00:15:00,855 The average for that trait is below 40 or above 60, and six of those have 231 00:15:00,855 --> 00:15:05,415 been constant outliers since I started measuring these data in the nineties. 232 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:11,730 And one of them, empathy was always low, but never quite qualified as an outlier. 233 00:15:11,730 --> 00:15:16,980 But it's dropped below that solidly, um, for the last number of years, 234 00:15:17,130 --> 00:15:19,170 and there's a good reason for that. 235 00:15:19,170 --> 00:15:26,880 I'll come back to, but the point is, these seven traits, these atypical traits, equip 236 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,944 lawyers to practice high quality law. 237 00:15:28,944 --> 00:15:29,505 I'll give you an example. 238 00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:33,090 One of the biggest outlier traits is skepticism. 239 00:15:33,090 --> 00:15:35,760 The average skepticism for the public is 50%. 240 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:41,130 Skepticism is a trait that you could be, you know, it's, it's what it sounds like. 241 00:15:41,370 --> 00:15:46,590 A skeptical person is somebody who's vigilant about information and people. 242 00:15:47,655 --> 00:15:52,515 Vigilance about information makes you kind of go, well, you make an assertion. 243 00:15:52,515 --> 00:15:54,705 And I go, well, I'm not sure that's true, Ted. 244 00:15:55,395 --> 00:15:57,135 Uh, or what's your proof for that? 245 00:15:57,225 --> 00:15:59,325 Or I focus on the 5%. 246 00:15:59,325 --> 00:16:02,685 That's not true, even though there's 95% that is true. 247 00:16:03,285 --> 00:16:07,215 Or I start questioning things instead of accepting them and 248 00:16:07,215 --> 00:16:08,444 giving you the benefit of the doubt. 249 00:16:08,444 --> 00:16:09,375 That's skepticism. 250 00:16:09,375 --> 00:16:13,575 And then interpersonal skepticism is, what's your real agenda 251 00:16:13,575 --> 00:16:14,600 in asking me that question? 252 00:16:15,375 --> 00:16:15,645 Right. 253 00:16:15,645 --> 00:16:17,475 You start questioning somebody's motives. 254 00:16:18,285 --> 00:16:25,185 All of these mental gymnastics are helpful to a lawyer who wants to be a 255 00:16:25,185 --> 00:16:29,895 high quality practitioner because their job is to pre protect their clients, 256 00:16:30,075 --> 00:16:35,025 in many cases from future harms, in some cases, to repair existing harms. 257 00:16:35,595 --> 00:16:40,425 But we're always trying to ask questions about what could hurt our client. 258 00:16:41,295 --> 00:16:44,865 And what can we do to avoid those harms in the future? 259 00:16:45,045 --> 00:16:49,515 So skepticism is a very essential, necessary thing, and we're trained 260 00:16:49,515 --> 00:16:51,105 to think skeptically in law school. 261 00:16:51,615 --> 00:16:52,995 So that's a plus for us. 262 00:16:53,235 --> 00:16:53,865 Here's the problem. 263 00:16:55,230 --> 00:16:57,630 The training doesn't stop in law school. 264 00:16:57,930 --> 00:17:02,280 We get out into practice and every single day that we practice law, we're 265 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,230 exercising that skepticism muscle. 266 00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:07,350 We're using it, we're getting rewarded for it socially. 267 00:17:07,530 --> 00:17:09,630 We're getting rewarded for it economically. 268 00:17:09,870 --> 00:17:12,360 We're getting rewarded for it by having conversations with 269 00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:13,680 our colleagues that reinforce. 270 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,950 Yeah, that's a great way to think about great analysis of that case 271 00:17:16,950 --> 00:17:22,829 issue, and the skepticism pays off, and so it's a prized quality. 272 00:17:23,580 --> 00:17:26,160 Now the opposite of skepticism is trust. 273 00:17:27,180 --> 00:17:29,280 So what could possibly go wrong there? 274 00:17:30,030 --> 00:17:33,750 That means we're not really good at building and sustaining 275 00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:35,490 trust and trustworthiness. 276 00:17:35,970 --> 00:17:39,960 So all the other roles that we play, which happen to need trust. 277 00:17:40,665 --> 00:17:46,515 Leadership, supervision, mentoring colleague, rainmaking, client retention. 278 00:17:46,725 --> 00:17:48,795 They all require relationship building. 279 00:17:48,975 --> 00:17:50,415 They all require trust. 280 00:17:50,715 --> 00:17:55,005 And the more skeptical I am in any of those roles, the more I inhibit my 281 00:17:55,005 --> 00:17:59,625 effectiveness in that role, the more I, you know, mitigate any followership. 282 00:17:59,655 --> 00:18:04,065 If I'm in a leadership role, the more I make people untrustworthy of me. 283 00:18:04,065 --> 00:18:05,445 Oh, Larry's kind of skeptical. 284 00:18:05,445 --> 00:18:06,735 I'm not sure I'm gonna follow him. 285 00:18:07,575 --> 00:18:07,995 So. 286 00:18:08,745 --> 00:18:10,905 It works just the opposite in those roles. 287 00:18:11,745 --> 00:18:15,225 And if you're a lawyer in a leadership role, you've gotta, 288 00:18:15,285 --> 00:18:18,405 you know, you kind of got one hand in in fire and the other in ice. 289 00:18:18,915 --> 00:18:21,405 And you've gotta figure out, how do I be skeptical in this 290 00:18:21,405 --> 00:18:23,415 one role that is my lawyer role. 291 00:18:24,135 --> 00:18:27,225 And then how do I turn that off and become trusting in these other roles? 292 00:18:27,555 --> 00:18:29,325 And the short answer is, most don't. 293 00:18:30,345 --> 00:18:35,445 Most of us keep the skepticism in all of our roles and we pay a price for that. 294 00:18:36,510 --> 00:18:39,480 So change is one of the prices that we pay. 295 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:46,590 If I am highly skeptical, if I'm highly autonomous, if I'm very low 296 00:18:46,590 --> 00:18:50,550 on sociability, I'm not comfortable with disclosure and intimacy, 297 00:18:51,419 --> 00:18:52,770 I can be a very good lawyer. 298 00:18:53,610 --> 00:18:57,810 But when it comes to change that the things that help us cope with 299 00:18:57,810 --> 00:19:00,750 change, number one is relationships. 300 00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:04,500 People who have strong, authentic. 301 00:19:05,370 --> 00:19:12,240 Vulnerable relationships that are steady and, and the kind you can count on. 302 00:19:13,139 --> 00:19:15,780 It's like a, a, a dampening agent. 303 00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:21,659 It allows us to ride the wave with change and uncertainty and stay 304 00:19:21,659 --> 00:19:23,879 stable and feel psychologically safe. 305 00:19:23,879 --> 00:19:28,139 But people who are lonely, people who are isolated, don't have that 306 00:19:28,139 --> 00:19:33,899 cushion, and all of the lawyer traits to an extent undermine relationships. 307 00:19:34,754 --> 00:19:38,235 Who wants to hang out with a skeptical person, right? 308 00:19:38,264 --> 00:19:39,014 Start with that. 309 00:19:39,465 --> 00:19:42,615 Somebody who's highly autonomous, how's that gonna work in a relationship? 310 00:19:43,215 --> 00:19:46,185 You know, you wanna go, uh, Italian or Chinese? 311 00:19:46,185 --> 00:19:47,385 I think we should go Chinese. 312 00:19:47,385 --> 00:19:48,345 Well, I don't like Chinese. 313 00:19:48,345 --> 00:19:51,345 Well, we're going Chinese, right? 314 00:19:51,705 --> 00:19:55,245 Um, do you, do you, uh, how about urgency? 315 00:19:55,635 --> 00:19:59,445 I'm trying to speak and feel like you heard me and you. 316 00:19:59,879 --> 00:20:01,410 Cut me off in the middle of my sentence. 317 00:20:01,410 --> 00:20:02,490 'cause you're a smart person. 318 00:20:02,490 --> 00:20:03,870 You think you know where I'm going with it. 319 00:20:04,740 --> 00:20:08,610 Well, you may be right academically, but you've lost the relationship. 320 00:20:08,610 --> 00:20:10,350 I now feel dissed. 321 00:20:10,350 --> 00:20:14,580 I feel you haven't heard me and you've soured the relationship. 322 00:20:15,210 --> 00:20:18,510 The divorce rate for lawyers is one and a half times the general 323 00:20:18,510 --> 00:20:21,520 public's divorce rate, so Wow. 324 00:20:22,695 --> 00:20:25,305 I won't go through each of the seven traits, but you get the point. 325 00:20:25,305 --> 00:20:29,985 These traits work for practicing law, but they undercut our ability to 326 00:20:29,985 --> 00:20:35,925 form healthy relationships, which is one of the most important, uh, shock 327 00:20:35,925 --> 00:20:38,325 absorbers for coping with change. 328 00:20:38,835 --> 00:20:44,955 In addition, um, the, the ability to channel positive emotions 329 00:20:44,955 --> 00:20:46,335 is another shock absorber. 330 00:20:47,025 --> 00:20:50,445 People who are optimistic tend to cope with change far better 331 00:20:50,445 --> 00:20:51,855 than people who are pessimistic. 332 00:20:52,425 --> 00:20:56,475 Which end of that scale do you think people trained in skepticism end up on? 333 00:20:58,845 --> 00:20:59,265 That's good question. 334 00:20:59,265 --> 00:21:01,695 It kind of answers, it kind of answers itself, right? 335 00:21:01,725 --> 00:21:01,995 Yeah. 336 00:21:02,130 --> 00:21:08,055 The, the pessimism is the first cousin to skepticism, and so we 337 00:21:08,055 --> 00:21:12,615 tend to be suspicious of optimists, not only, not optimistic ourselves, 338 00:21:12,615 --> 00:21:14,235 but suspicious of optimists. 339 00:21:15,285 --> 00:21:16,605 What are you really after? 340 00:21:16,605 --> 00:21:17,025 Right? 341 00:21:18,255 --> 00:21:23,415 Um, and, and we call it, we don't say I'm pessimistic, we say I'm realistic. 342 00:21:25,125 --> 00:21:26,805 That's the euphemism that we always use. 343 00:21:27,345 --> 00:21:31,155 But what it really means is, and, and your brain knows that you're 344 00:21:31,155 --> 00:21:36,045 just using semantics to escape the truth here to your brain. 345 00:21:36,375 --> 00:21:40,245 'cause we have a way of telling whether you're optimistic or pessimistic. 346 00:21:40,515 --> 00:21:44,235 You can look in a lab at the hormones that your body's generating. 347 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:50,070 And if you're generating cortisol and neo epinephrine and the other 348 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,210 nasty chemicals come out when you're in the fight or flight mode, the 349 00:21:54,210 --> 00:21:57,840 what's called the sympathetic nervous system, those hormones are testable. 350 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,149 We can see when you're in a stressful mode. 351 00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:04,710 So you can say all you want, uh, I'm being realistic, but if you're 352 00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:09,330 producing cortisol, um, your brain thinks you're pessimistic. 353 00:22:10,545 --> 00:22:14,385 If you're producing endorphins and serotonin and oxytocin, your brain 354 00:22:14,385 --> 00:22:15,555 thinks you're being optimistic. 355 00:22:15,764 --> 00:22:17,145 That's what the bottom line is. 356 00:22:17,145 --> 00:22:18,825 What are the hormones that you're producing? 357 00:22:18,855 --> 00:22:24,764 It's a chemical equation, and so all the verbal ledger domain is irrelevant 358 00:22:25,545 --> 00:22:29,745 because your health depends on producing the hormones that are gonna be beneficial. 359 00:22:30,045 --> 00:22:32,080 People who produce positive hormones live longer. 360 00:22:33,014 --> 00:22:34,635 They have better lasting relationships. 361 00:22:34,635 --> 00:22:36,135 These things are all interconnected. 362 00:22:36,645 --> 00:22:40,334 They, they tend to be more resourceful in coping with change. 363 00:22:40,935 --> 00:22:43,935 They tend to have, uh, less absences from work. 364 00:22:43,935 --> 00:22:45,945 They get common colds less frequently. 365 00:22:45,975 --> 00:22:48,855 They tend to be happier overall in life satisfaction. 366 00:22:49,155 --> 00:22:53,925 There's a whole bunch of payoffs that happen when people are channeling positive 367 00:22:53,925 --> 00:22:56,024 emotions that produce positive hormones. 368 00:22:56,955 --> 00:22:59,620 Lawyers are really good at channeling negative hormones. 369 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:02,730 It doesn't have to be that way. 370 00:23:02,730 --> 00:23:05,550 There are ways, and part of what I tried to do in, in this book 371 00:23:05,550 --> 00:23:09,180 is to explain what are the things that are within your control. 372 00:23:09,180 --> 00:23:13,290 Even if you can't control the sources of change, you can control how you 373 00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:18,855 metabolize that change, how the effect lands on you, and you can metabolize 374 00:23:18,855 --> 00:23:23,430 it by having a more optimistic framework for looking at the change. 375 00:23:23,430 --> 00:23:27,000 You can metabolize it by building more relationships that are 376 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,440 shock absorbers and so forth. 377 00:23:29,715 --> 00:23:33,344 Has, uh, have you looked at the lifespan of lawyers? 378 00:23:33,824 --> 00:23:34,455 Is it lower? 379 00:23:34,544 --> 00:23:37,905 Uh, I don't, that'd be a really interesting research question. 380 00:23:37,965 --> 00:23:38,024 Yeah. 381 00:23:38,024 --> 00:23:39,524 I don't know any data on that. 382 00:23:41,294 --> 00:23:45,344 Yeah, I'm, I'm curious because the way you're describing sounds like 383 00:23:45,344 --> 00:23:50,175 there would be a potential correlation there between lifespan and these, 384 00:23:50,175 --> 00:23:52,004 this, this pessimistic mindset. 385 00:23:52,665 --> 00:23:55,815 There is in the general research, when you don't look at lawyers, but you look 386 00:23:55,815 --> 00:23:57,945 at research in the general population. 387 00:23:58,395 --> 00:24:02,625 Um, there are some studies, there's, there's one study, uh, that was 388 00:24:02,925 --> 00:24:07,965 very interesting study done in 1998 where they found, um, some notebooks 389 00:24:08,054 --> 00:24:11,745 that had been squirreled away by some cloistered nuns in Baltimore. 390 00:24:12,540 --> 00:24:16,679 And the scientists, social scientists came along and, and looked at these diaries 391 00:24:16,679 --> 00:24:23,129 and had graduate students go through the diaries and code the diaries for optimism 392 00:24:23,129 --> 00:24:25,770 and pessimism and for relationships. 393 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,870 And what they found is that the top quartile of the nuns, the most positive, 394 00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:36,240 optimistic nuns live 10 years longer than the most negative 10 years. 395 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,115 We're not talking like a month or two, we're talking 10 years difference. 396 00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:41,520 Wow. 397 00:24:41,550 --> 00:24:41,820 Yeah. 398 00:24:41,820 --> 00:24:44,820 It sounds like being a lawyer could be hazardous to your 399 00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:46,770 health and your marriage. 400 00:24:46,770 --> 00:24:47,280 It can be. 401 00:24:47,670 --> 00:24:48,000 Yeah. 402 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:48,390 It can be. 403 00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:52,830 There's, there's been studies in the last, uh, couple of decades, a 404 00:24:52,830 --> 00:24:56,220 couple recently, and then some, going back to the nineties and the early 405 00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:57,665 two thousands where they looked at. 406 00:24:58,305 --> 00:25:03,585 Depression lawyers are almost four times as depressed as the general population, 407 00:25:04,005 --> 00:25:05,685 one and a half times divorce rate. 408 00:25:05,685 --> 00:25:10,035 I've already mentioned there was a study in 2019 that showed that we 409 00:25:10,065 --> 00:25:15,555 were number 160 when they ranked least to most lonely occupations. 410 00:25:15,555 --> 00:25:17,745 We were the most lonely at a hundred 60th. 411 00:25:18,255 --> 00:25:18,645 Um. 412 00:25:19,395 --> 00:25:20,835 So there's lots of data. 413 00:25:20,985 --> 00:25:26,774 Uh, Patrick Krill did a study in 2016 about lawyer drinking, showing that we're 414 00:25:27,074 --> 00:25:31,155 off the charts, especially first 10 years out of school in terms of alcoholism. 415 00:25:31,935 --> 00:25:36,014 Um, so there's lots of indicia that the stress is affecting 416 00:25:36,014 --> 00:25:37,425 lawyers in a negative way. 417 00:25:38,790 --> 00:25:41,399 My whole point here is it doesn't have to be that way. 418 00:25:41,399 --> 00:25:45,480 There are tools that are available to us that can help us adjust 419 00:25:45,870 --> 00:25:47,760 how we cope with these stressors. 420 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,480 We can't control the stressor soars in many cases, but we definitely 421 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,200 can control our reaction to them, and that matters hugely. 422 00:25:57,090 --> 00:26:04,020 So the, um, I wrote a, a LinkedIn post about eight months ago, and I did what 423 00:26:04,020 --> 00:26:07,500 I thought was an interesting comparison and it, it seemed to get some traction. 424 00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:08,850 I think I tagged you in it. 425 00:26:09,390 --> 00:26:14,940 It was about, I took the five traits of an innovator as described by Mark Andreessen. 426 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:21,930 This wasn't a scientific, this wasn't scientific data he was articulating. 427 00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:24,660 It was anecdotal observations, but I think. 428 00:26:25,379 --> 00:26:30,929 If anybody knows what the traits of an innovator would look like, he'd, he'd 429 00:26:30,929 --> 00:26:36,030 be at the top of the list with, you know, his, he invented the web browser. 430 00:26:36,090 --> 00:26:40,860 He has arguably the most successful venture fund in Silicon Valley. 431 00:26:41,429 --> 00:26:47,189 Um, he talked about, uh, the five, his, um, five traits for an 432 00:26:47,189 --> 00:26:52,530 innovator are open, being open to many new kinds of ideas, not lawyers. 433 00:26:53,115 --> 00:26:55,965 High level of conscientiousness that is lawyers. 434 00:26:55,965 --> 00:26:56,685 Mm-hmm. 435 00:26:56,745 --> 00:26:58,635 High, high and disagreeableness. 436 00:26:58,665 --> 00:27:00,045 That's definitely lawyers. 437 00:27:00,525 --> 00:27:01,305 Uh, no, it's not high, 438 00:27:04,155 --> 00:27:08,530 high IQ lawyers and high in resilience, which is not lawyers. 439 00:27:08,535 --> 00:27:08,925 Not lawyers. 440 00:27:09,555 --> 00:27:09,765 Yeah. 441 00:27:09,795 --> 00:27:15,105 So, you know, so 60% alignment, 40% misalignment. 442 00:27:15,190 --> 00:27:15,610 Mm-hmm. 443 00:27:15,690 --> 00:27:16,810 And I talk a lot about. 444 00:27:18,105 --> 00:27:22,635 How I think that law firms, especially now, given where we're at, I was saying 445 00:27:22,635 --> 00:27:31,845 this pre ai, I think that law firms should really consider putting non-lawyers in the 446 00:27:31,845 --> 00:27:35,865 chief innovation roles that are driving innovation for a number of reasons. 447 00:27:36,225 --> 00:27:39,430 Um, first and foremost, it's um. 448 00:27:40,995 --> 00:27:47,145 You know, aside from just the personality traits, um, it's a, it's a, coming 449 00:27:47,145 --> 00:27:53,385 from different industries and having new ideas about an approach or, um, 450 00:27:53,655 --> 00:27:58,755 different experiences with, you know, technology and, and different sets of 451 00:27:58,755 --> 00:28:02,175 stakeholders and bringing new ideas, I think is a very healthy thing when 452 00:28:02,175 --> 00:28:03,615 you're talking about innovation. 453 00:28:04,215 --> 00:28:07,365 And if you look across the board. 454 00:28:07,814 --> 00:28:14,745 Um, I would say maybe one out of 10, uh, chief innovation officers are non-lawyers. 455 00:28:15,225 --> 00:28:15,314 Mm-hmm. 456 00:28:15,554 --> 00:28:19,155 Um, there's some really good ones that have gotten a lot of recognition, but 457 00:28:19,635 --> 00:28:23,804 I've been advocating for law firms to maybe think differently, especially 458 00:28:23,804 --> 00:28:29,024 as we enter into this era where legal services will be tech enabled. 459 00:28:29,054 --> 00:28:30,465 There will be a large component. 460 00:28:30,855 --> 00:28:32,895 I think that having those additional. 461 00:28:33,765 --> 00:28:35,715 Perspectives could add a lot of value. 462 00:28:36,075 --> 00:28:41,895 But you know, one, one thing that, one challenge that a non-lawyer has in that 463 00:28:41,895 --> 00:28:43,995 seat is they're not part of the guild. 464 00:28:44,565 --> 00:28:44,835 Right. 465 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:45,130 That's right. 466 00:28:45,130 --> 00:28:45,285 Right. 467 00:28:45,285 --> 00:28:46,815 They don't have the golden ring. 468 00:28:47,055 --> 00:28:51,825 And, um, and that creates some headwinds in terms of credibility, I 469 00:28:51,825 --> 00:28:54,555 think, because of their skepticism. 470 00:28:55,515 --> 00:28:56,235 Um, mm-hmm. 471 00:28:56,475 --> 00:29:02,445 So, I'm, I, my, I am predicting that as this industry transforms. 472 00:29:03,015 --> 00:29:04,455 We're gonna see more of that. 473 00:29:05,025 --> 00:29:05,655 Um. 474 00:29:06,014 --> 00:29:09,284 But I think that, so if I, if I could, um, I, I both agree with 475 00:29:09,284 --> 00:29:12,225 you and push back a little bit on one component of what you said. 476 00:29:12,735 --> 00:29:14,625 Um, actually two things. 477 00:29:14,745 --> 00:29:20,834 Um, I have a, a nitpick, uh, about the, the term non-lawyers, 478 00:29:20,865 --> 00:29:22,064 and I know that's not yours. 479 00:29:22,064 --> 00:29:25,754 It's used widely throughout the profession, but, um, it's kind of a 480 00:29:25,754 --> 00:29:27,435 chalk on the blackboard thing to me. 481 00:29:27,495 --> 00:29:31,064 And I think the reason that we use that term, that lawyers use it. 482 00:29:32,095 --> 00:29:35,215 Is because we're so low in resilience, low resilience, people 483 00:29:35,215 --> 00:29:37,315 feel a little insecure, right? 484 00:29:37,315 --> 00:29:38,365 And we feel won down. 485 00:29:38,635 --> 00:29:42,445 And one of the ways that you can feel a little bit more, you know, full 486 00:29:42,445 --> 00:29:47,065 of uh, stuff is if you can elevate yourself by putting other people down. 487 00:29:47,985 --> 00:29:50,534 And calling anyone who's not a lawyer. 488 00:29:50,534 --> 00:29:53,024 A non-lawyer is a way of elevating myself. 489 00:29:53,264 --> 00:29:56,475 You don't hear anyone in the medical profession talking about non-doctors. 490 00:29:56,475 --> 00:29:58,064 You don't go to the non-accountants. 491 00:29:58,125 --> 00:29:59,745 You don't go to the non-teacher. 492 00:30:00,314 --> 00:30:02,564 We're the only one that does that, and we're the only one 493 00:30:02,564 --> 00:30:04,574 that has a 90% low resilience. 494 00:30:05,024 --> 00:30:07,905 So it, it kind of fits the puzzle. 495 00:30:07,905 --> 00:30:09,375 So that's my, my nitpick. 496 00:30:09,375 --> 00:30:10,304 And it's not with you. 497 00:30:10,304 --> 00:30:13,155 It's, it's with the industry's use of that term. 498 00:30:13,159 --> 00:30:15,044 We, with you, we all kind of inhaled. 499 00:30:15,554 --> 00:30:16,485 The second thing is. 500 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,090 It's not so much people who aren't lawyers, but people who aren't 501 00:30:21,090 --> 00:30:24,990 typical lawyers because there are a lot of lawyers that have realized. 502 00:30:25,455 --> 00:30:27,735 This law thing is not my best fit. 503 00:30:28,185 --> 00:30:32,415 I'm gonna be better off at, at doing something with my 504 00:30:32,415 --> 00:30:33,795 skills that's a better fit. 505 00:30:34,125 --> 00:30:37,515 And I'll mention two people that I think you, you know, both or know of 506 00:30:37,515 --> 00:30:43,605 both, um, that are great examples of lawyers who are in this space that 507 00:30:43,635 --> 00:30:46,815 are so well suited to this one is Jen Leonard, you've already mentioned. 508 00:30:46,815 --> 00:30:46,905 Mm-hmm. 509 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,260 And Jen. 510 00:30:48,975 --> 00:30:51,735 You know, she's trained as a lawyer, but she doesn't have 511 00:30:51,735 --> 00:30:52,845 the typical lawyer skills. 512 00:30:52,845 --> 00:30:56,805 She has the perfect skills for being an expert in the innovation space, 513 00:30:57,135 --> 00:31:02,715 and she's using her best self to do her best work in this space. 514 00:31:02,925 --> 00:31:06,615 Um, and if we rule out lawyers, you would've lost somebody with her talent. 515 00:31:07,004 --> 00:31:10,185 And the other one is Terry Moders head, um, in Australia. 516 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,860 Although she's really a citizen of the world 'cause she's lived 517 00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:15,540 everywhere except on the moon. 518 00:31:15,630 --> 00:31:18,210 And I'm only saying that 'cause I think she hasn't lived on the moon. 519 00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:23,670 Um, Terry, if you're listening, let me know if you have, um, 'cause she's also 520 00:31:23,670 --> 00:31:26,640 another brilliant person like Jen who, um. 521 00:31:27,215 --> 00:31:30,875 You know, uh, she could probably have 10 lives and come back each 522 00:31:30,875 --> 00:31:34,595 time as an expert in something else 'cause she's so multi-talented. 523 00:31:35,195 --> 00:31:40,895 Um, but she has used her talents to go into the lawyer innovation space as well 524 00:31:41,195 --> 00:31:43,145 in a slightly different way from Jen. 525 00:31:43,145 --> 00:31:48,095 And they're both, um, doing remarkable, remarkable things 526 00:31:48,725 --> 00:31:50,225 that benefit our profession. 527 00:31:50,645 --> 00:31:51,510 So I think they should be. 528 00:31:51,870 --> 00:31:51,929 Yeah. 529 00:31:52,199 --> 00:31:57,090 Highlighted as lawyers who do that not, you know, not in the typical vein 530 00:31:57,090 --> 00:31:58,860 of, of what we think of as lawyers. 531 00:31:59,429 --> 00:31:59,610 Yeah. 532 00:31:59,610 --> 00:32:04,169 And maybe I should clarify what, what I'm advocating against is the requirement 533 00:32:04,439 --> 00:32:06,239 that a lawyer sit in that role. 534 00:32:06,750 --> 00:32:07,199 Um, sure. 535 00:32:07,199 --> 00:32:10,169 I think there's been plenty of innovative lawyers. 536 00:32:10,169 --> 00:32:14,070 I had, uh, Richard Trumans from the artificial lawyer on, and he brought 537 00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:17,909 up, uh, Marty Lipton who invented the poison pill in the eighties, you know. 538 00:32:18,395 --> 00:32:23,645 That was an extreme example of innovation, um, and risk taking. 539 00:32:23,645 --> 00:32:27,995 And um, and you know, my, when he brought that up, my response was, 540 00:32:28,415 --> 00:32:32,495 yeah, but you'd never put, Marty pulled Marty Lipton out of the practice 541 00:32:32,495 --> 00:32:33,935 and into a chief innovation role. 542 00:32:33,935 --> 00:32:36,875 Like maybe he needs to stay in the practice. 543 00:32:36,875 --> 00:32:37,534 And yeah. 544 00:32:37,534 --> 00:32:40,895 So, and I agree with you on the term with non-lawyers, it happens to be. 545 00:32:41,535 --> 00:32:44,625 I think one less syllable than business professionals, but we, we 546 00:32:44,625 --> 00:32:49,785 need to retrain ourselves to, to say business professionals, um, instead of 547 00:32:49,785 --> 00:32:51,915 non-lawyers because it is exclusionary. 548 00:32:51,975 --> 00:32:58,545 And, um, I think the, there's, there's a lot of momentum behind deprecating that 549 00:32:58,545 --> 00:33:00,105 term, which I think is a good thing. 550 00:33:00,705 --> 00:33:00,765 Yeah. 551 00:33:00,765 --> 00:33:00,775 Mm-hmm. 552 00:33:00,775 --> 00:33:05,865 Um, so the, the, um, you, you didn't mention all of them, but 553 00:33:05,865 --> 00:33:07,095 I'll just go through 'em quickly. 554 00:33:07,095 --> 00:33:08,175 Tell me if I get 'em right. 555 00:33:08,505 --> 00:33:09,525 So, lawyers are. 556 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:15,900 Above the mean in skepticism, autonomy, urgency, and abstract reasoning. 557 00:33:16,170 --> 00:33:16,500 That's right. 558 00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:19,980 And below the mean in sociability, resilience and empathy. 559 00:33:20,460 --> 00:33:20,940 Correct. 560 00:33:20,970 --> 00:33:22,050 Right on all counts. 561 00:33:22,770 --> 00:33:29,040 And to what magnitude, um, are they, do they deviate from the mean? 562 00:33:29,775 --> 00:33:33,405 So these numbers jump around 'cause I'm constantly measuring more people. 563 00:33:33,735 --> 00:33:37,755 But, um, I'll give you some averages that are kind of ballpark 564 00:33:37,755 --> 00:33:40,335 averages that, that tell the story. 565 00:33:40,665 --> 00:33:43,035 Skepticism is always on the top end. 566 00:33:43,035 --> 00:33:45,915 It's always, it's gonna be in the high eighties or the low nineties, 567 00:33:45,915 --> 00:33:47,955 something in that 90% range. 568 00:33:48,435 --> 00:33:51,390 Um, and we're always comparing to 50% for the public. 569 00:33:52,635 --> 00:33:56,745 Um, abstract reasoning is in the 80, 81, 80 2%. 570 00:33:56,745 --> 00:33:58,245 It's always hovering around there. 571 00:33:58,725 --> 00:34:02,775 Um, the people who go into law are academically smart. 572 00:34:02,775 --> 00:34:05,055 They're on the higher end of the IQ curve. 573 00:34:05,475 --> 00:34:12,585 And abstract reasoning is a love of using your brain to solve problems 574 00:34:12,585 --> 00:34:13,840 and to stimulate your intellect. 575 00:34:14,955 --> 00:34:21,195 And for many people, loving to argue, um, urgency, it's a little less of an outlier. 576 00:34:21,195 --> 00:34:24,285 It's about 71% compared to 50 for the public. 577 00:34:25,065 --> 00:34:26,565 Um, autonomy. 578 00:34:27,075 --> 00:34:31,185 Um, autonomy is a tricky one because I made up the word. 579 00:34:31,215 --> 00:34:38,085 It's uh, the actual test trait is a flip side trait called external structure, 580 00:34:38,685 --> 00:34:41,085 but that's so academic and obscure. 581 00:34:41,790 --> 00:34:44,430 I thought it's easier to understand the word autonomy. 582 00:34:45,090 --> 00:34:51,330 So the average external structure is 11%, and in my writing I flip 583 00:34:51,330 --> 00:34:53,700 it around, I call it 89% autonomy. 584 00:34:53,700 --> 00:34:54,480 It's the same idea. 585 00:34:55,110 --> 00:34:56,070 What does that mean? 586 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,810 People with high autonomy don't want others telling me what to do. 587 00:35:01,650 --> 00:35:02,325 I want freedom. 588 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,780 To make decisions and choices and, and have a running field. 589 00:35:06,780 --> 00:35:07,980 That's all mine. 590 00:35:08,430 --> 00:35:11,280 I don't want you breathing over my shoulder and telling me what to do. 591 00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:14,700 Uh, and that's rampant in the legal profession. 592 00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:18,150 And by the way, in most of the other professions as well, there's uh, 593 00:35:18,780 --> 00:35:22,410 uh, some research at Harvard that, uh, show that there's six principal 594 00:35:22,410 --> 00:35:24,990 professions that all have high autonomy. 595 00:35:25,590 --> 00:35:27,360 Um, so, but laws. 596 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:28,800 Off the chart. 597 00:35:29,430 --> 00:35:35,850 Um, empathy, uh, it, it used to hover at 41%, which makes it technically 598 00:35:35,850 --> 00:35:38,790 not an outlier 'cause you have to be below 40 to be an outlier. 599 00:35:39,330 --> 00:35:40,860 But it's dropped like a stone. 600 00:35:40,860 --> 00:35:44,160 And the reason is, and it's the only one that's moving. 601 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,330 The other traits, the other six traits are rock steady for 31 years. 602 00:35:49,755 --> 00:35:51,195 So why is empathy dropping? 603 00:35:51,195 --> 00:35:55,485 And the answer is, it's dropping because of the social environment we live in. 604 00:35:55,515 --> 00:35:57,885 'cause it's dropping not just among lawyers, but among 605 00:35:57,885 --> 00:35:59,325 people around the world. 606 00:35:59,925 --> 00:36:05,415 Mainly in the millennial cohort, people age 40 and under, and. 607 00:36:06,134 --> 00:36:11,685 The, the reason that scientists suspect that younger people have less 608 00:36:11,685 --> 00:36:17,025 empathy is because the way we learn empathy mainly is in the school yard. 609 00:36:17,295 --> 00:36:22,125 We go out and we play, and let's say we're playing and you call me a nasty name 610 00:36:22,395 --> 00:36:27,435 and you look at my face and I have this really hurt look on my face, and you go, 611 00:36:27,465 --> 00:36:29,265 oh, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. 612 00:36:29,265 --> 00:36:29,835 I'm sorry. 613 00:36:30,555 --> 00:36:34,395 And you mentally think to yourself, oh, that was a little over the edge. 614 00:36:34,755 --> 00:36:35,115 I'm gonna. 615 00:36:35,879 --> 00:36:39,660 Pull in my comment the next time, and you learn empathy by having 616 00:36:39,660 --> 00:36:41,460 these interactions in the schoolyard. 617 00:36:42,135 --> 00:36:43,545 Well, two things happened. 618 00:36:43,545 --> 00:36:48,045 Number one, schools across the country, because of lots of different reasons, 619 00:36:48,045 --> 00:36:54,165 started pulling in funding for recreation and, and recess, and computers also 620 00:36:54,195 --> 00:36:59,145 made it easier to have recess in the computer room instead of on the blacktop. 621 00:36:59,715 --> 00:37:01,395 And so we didn't have these interactions. 622 00:37:01,725 --> 00:37:05,535 And number two, the rise of technology, especially in the mid nineties. 623 00:37:06,475 --> 00:37:10,495 There's a whole cohort of more the latter end of the millennial court 624 00:37:10,555 --> 00:37:15,145 cohort who mainly communicated with their friends through texting instead 625 00:37:15,145 --> 00:37:16,675 of face-to-face communication. 626 00:37:17,215 --> 00:37:21,865 Texting, you don't see any facial expressions and texting doesn't 627 00:37:21,865 --> 00:37:23,785 convey any emotions very well. 628 00:37:24,615 --> 00:37:29,115 And that those are the two main sources of data that we use to have that 629 00:37:29,115 --> 00:37:33,194 feedback loop, that we can see the effect of emotions on other people, 630 00:37:33,555 --> 00:37:37,305 and so we don't have the course correction, the course correcting 631 00:37:37,365 --> 00:37:39,825 raw material that forms empathy. 632 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,100 And there's a bunch of other things as well, but those, those 633 00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:49,320 factors are probably very central to the decline in empathy. 634 00:37:50,490 --> 00:37:54,240 You know, suffice it to say lawyers are just like all the other young people. 635 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:58,200 Lawyers under age 40 have less empathy. 636 00:37:58,860 --> 00:38:03,810 Um, they're, they're less so empathy's a tricky trait, especially 637 00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:06,840 cognitive empathy, which is about taking the perspective of others. 638 00:38:07,980 --> 00:38:12,510 It's so vital to just about everything we do in the business world, but 639 00:38:12,510 --> 00:38:15,030 it doesn't, it's not visible. 640 00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:18,360 It's hard to see it unless you know what you're looking for. 641 00:38:18,780 --> 00:38:19,950 So I'll give you an example. 642 00:38:20,940 --> 00:38:26,790 If I am, um, a rank and file individual contributor in an organization, a 643 00:38:26,790 --> 00:38:30,990 practicing lawyer, uh, you know, a staff person, whatever, I'm not 644 00:38:30,990 --> 00:38:36,570 in a leadership role and my leader makes some sort of a decision. 645 00:38:37,470 --> 00:38:42,450 Um, if I'm a typical lawyer, as soon as somebody makes a 646 00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:45,810 decision, my autonomy kicks in and I'm like, you want me to what? 647 00:38:47,879 --> 00:38:53,220 Now, if I had high empathy, my autonomy would be wrestling at 648 00:38:53,220 --> 00:38:57,330 this point with my empathy because I'd be going, oh, my leader asked 649 00:38:57,330 --> 00:38:59,190 me to do X. Let me understand. 650 00:38:59,190 --> 00:39:01,230 Why would my leader ask me to do that? 651 00:39:01,290 --> 00:39:03,720 Oh, I see what the leader's trying to accomplish. 652 00:39:04,859 --> 00:39:06,180 I'll try to. 653 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,130 Meet that leader's needs, right? 654 00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:13,980 But if I don't have that empathy, I'm never asking that question. 655 00:39:14,009 --> 00:39:16,320 I'm never asking, what is it that you're asking? 656 00:39:16,350 --> 00:39:18,000 Why are you asking me to do this? 657 00:39:18,450 --> 00:39:21,270 I'm just hearing you want me to do something different from what I'm 658 00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:28,680 doing now and that compromise my autonomy and up yours, so, so empathy 659 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,790 is really, really important, but really hard to see in action, and 660 00:39:32,790 --> 00:39:34,950 it affects everything sociability. 661 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:41,100 One of the lowest, lowest traits I measure the average sociability for the public. 662 00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:42,300 Of course, 50%. 663 00:39:42,690 --> 00:39:47,340 For lawyers, it's 12.5%, and if you're keeping score at 664 00:39:47,340 --> 00:39:49,410 home, a potted plan is 8%. 665 00:39:49,410 --> 00:39:55,050 Just so you have a comparison here, so what is, what is low sociability? 666 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,690 Low sociability means I'm very guarded. 667 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,830 I'm private, I'm emotionally walled off. 668 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,385 I don't want you to see anything about my. 669 00:40:05,415 --> 00:40:09,134 Fears, concerns, worries, private life. 670 00:40:10,185 --> 00:40:12,765 Um, I'm just gonna deal with superficial things. 671 00:40:14,115 --> 00:40:17,294 And so it's hard to form intimate connections, which is the essence 672 00:40:17,294 --> 00:40:20,595 of those protective relationships that I was talking about earlier. 673 00:40:21,165 --> 00:40:23,355 Low sociability is an inhibitor of that. 674 00:40:23,529 --> 00:40:24,990 And then the last one, resilience. 675 00:40:25,689 --> 00:40:27,705 That's what the topic of my book is about. 676 00:40:28,035 --> 00:40:29,205 This is so dramatic. 677 00:40:29,205 --> 00:40:31,230 We're not only 20% lower than the public. 678 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:37,589 Our average is 30 compared to the 50% average, but it's a skewed bell 679 00:40:37,589 --> 00:40:43,259 curve, which means 90%, nine out of 10 lawyers that we measure score 680 00:40:43,259 --> 00:40:45,270 in the bottom half of this scale. 681 00:40:45,779 --> 00:40:49,319 Instead of half of them, 90% of them are in the bottom half. 682 00:40:49,350 --> 00:40:49,859 For what? 683 00:40:49,859 --> 00:40:50,220 Trait? 684 00:40:50,819 --> 00:40:51,690 Resilience. 685 00:40:52,259 --> 00:40:52,950 Oh, resilience. 686 00:40:52,950 --> 00:40:53,339 Gotcha. 687 00:40:53,370 --> 00:40:59,355 In other words, we're thin skinned, we're insecure, we're easily hurt. 688 00:41:00,150 --> 00:41:02,100 By criticism, rejection, stress. 689 00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:04,200 We don't adapt well, we don't cope well. 690 00:41:05,070 --> 00:41:09,390 And just telling lawyers that lawyers are low in resilience makes 691 00:41:09,390 --> 00:41:10,980 a lot of lawyers feel defensive. 692 00:41:11,759 --> 00:41:13,259 That's low resilience at work. 693 00:41:13,830 --> 00:41:17,850 When you, when you get defensive about being res low in resilience, that 694 00:41:17,850 --> 00:41:20,220 kind of tells the story right there. 695 00:41:21,450 --> 00:41:22,350 So Interesting. 696 00:41:22,410 --> 00:41:26,009 Um, do, have you ever watched the show Landman? 697 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:26,940 No. 698 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,180 It's a, it's a show that's very popular. 699 00:41:30,180 --> 00:41:34,680 It's on Paramount now, and they have a lawyer on this show and 700 00:41:34,890 --> 00:41:36,810 the writers must have read. 701 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:43,020 Your work, because she exhibits every trait to the nth degree, extremely 702 00:41:43,020 --> 00:41:49,710 autonomous, uh, highly skeptical, very low empathy, and extremely low resilience. 703 00:41:49,710 --> 00:41:55,710 On the episode last week, somebody set her straight and she was sideways for 704 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,560 a couple of days over the interaction. 705 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:03,600 So, um, yeah, I, that really paints the picture. 706 00:42:04,110 --> 00:42:06,390 Um, and, and obviously like you said, there are. 707 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,430 This is a bell-shaped curve and there are long tails, I would imagine, and plenty 708 00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:13,200 of people who fall outside of that. 709 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:19,350 But for the general population, what you're describing, um, is 710 00:42:19,350 --> 00:42:24,930 where that middle, you know, whatever it is, one or two standard 711 00:42:24,930 --> 00:42:26,520 deviations away from the mean. 712 00:42:27,540 --> 00:42:27,629 Mm-hmm. 713 00:42:28,020 --> 00:42:28,589 Accurate. 714 00:42:29,310 --> 00:42:30,299 Yeah, exactly. 715 00:42:30,359 --> 00:42:30,779 Um. 716 00:42:31,185 --> 00:42:38,325 What I asked you this question when you presented, um, at KM and I, but I, I 717 00:42:38,325 --> 00:42:40,215 want you, I want to ask it again here. 718 00:42:40,965 --> 00:42:48,375 Are these traits born or are they nurtured? 719 00:42:48,435 --> 00:42:52,875 Is this, is this nature or nurture that's, that's really clearly nurture 720 00:42:52,875 --> 00:42:55,275 at a minimum is reinforcing them. 721 00:42:55,725 --> 00:42:56,865 But if you were to test. 722 00:42:57,495 --> 00:43:03,885 Like one Ls, uh, on their way in, would they score the same way or, 723 00:43:04,215 --> 00:43:09,675 um, is, is, is it the, the profession and the reinforcement that really is 724 00:43:09,675 --> 00:43:12,160 creating this divergence from the mean? 725 00:43:13,155 --> 00:43:14,775 So it depends on the trait. 726 00:43:14,805 --> 00:43:16,005 The traits vary on this. 727 00:43:16,005 --> 00:43:20,415 So first of all, every personality trait has some nature and some nurture. 728 00:43:20,865 --> 00:43:24,945 We used to say it was 50 50, but that's before we had data. 729 00:43:25,365 --> 00:43:29,325 And they've done these remarkable studies, um, for the last 30 plus 730 00:43:29,325 --> 00:43:33,525 years where they find identical twins that were separated at birth and they 731 00:43:33,525 --> 00:43:36,015 go and locate them and test them. 732 00:43:36,290 --> 00:43:40,700 Before they reunite them and what they've been able to do because they're 733 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,290 sharing the same genetic material. 734 00:43:43,410 --> 00:43:46,529 Uh, and they also can compare them with dizygotic twins, 735 00:43:46,529 --> 00:43:48,540 with, with, uh, fraternal twins. 736 00:43:48,540 --> 00:43:54,630 So, um, you could see the differences must be due to genetics or to learning. 737 00:43:54,630 --> 00:43:58,650 When you look at those two, uh, uh, you know, variables. 738 00:43:59,165 --> 00:44:04,625 And what they've determined is that most personality traits are considerably more 739 00:44:04,625 --> 00:44:07,625 genetically predisposed than learning. 740 00:44:07,625 --> 00:44:12,035 They both, they all have some of both, but the genetics plays a 741 00:44:12,035 --> 00:44:13,750 stronger role, and that's why we see. 742 00:44:14,705 --> 00:44:17,045 Personality traits tend to be sticky. 743 00:44:17,045 --> 00:44:19,115 They tend to be tenacious over time. 744 00:44:19,625 --> 00:44:23,795 There are examples of, you know, people going through some sort of trauma that 745 00:44:23,795 --> 00:44:28,625 change the trait or slowly changing a trait over time, but you're not gonna 746 00:44:28,625 --> 00:44:32,345 have high skepticism on a Tuesday and low skepticism on a Thursday. 747 00:44:32,525 --> 00:44:34,085 That's, that's not the way it works. 748 00:44:34,620 --> 00:44:39,180 And the, the stability of the traits through time is mainly because of 749 00:44:39,180 --> 00:44:44,310 that, you know, greater proportion of genetics that underlie the traits 750 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:50,430 that said, and so, so if that were the case for all 21 traits, the answer 751 00:44:50,430 --> 00:44:55,020 would have to be, the traits were self-selected on day one of law school. 752 00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:02,010 However, three of the traits on the 21 caliber traits are dramatically 753 00:45:02,010 --> 00:45:03,990 more learned than genetic. 754 00:45:04,740 --> 00:45:08,250 And those three traits all happen to be among the seven outlier 755 00:45:08,250 --> 00:45:09,840 traits for lawyers, interestingly. 756 00:45:10,770 --> 00:45:16,320 And they are empathy, very learned trait resilience. 757 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,440 Also a very learned trait and skepticism. 758 00:45:19,710 --> 00:45:23,100 If you think about it, people are born trusting and they 759 00:45:23,100 --> 00:45:24,780 learn to be skeptical over time. 760 00:45:25,380 --> 00:45:28,770 And then we take that learning to a fairly well in law school. 761 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,215 So those are all. 762 00:45:31,965 --> 00:45:38,085 Um, learn traits, which means no matter where we start as one L is in law school, 763 00:45:38,535 --> 00:45:43,845 um, the experience is gonna have more of a learning impact than for traits that 764 00:45:43,845 --> 00:45:45,975 are largely genetically predisposed. 765 00:45:46,335 --> 00:45:47,715 And it does in fact. 766 00:45:48,135 --> 00:45:53,355 Um, so we don't know exactly where the baseline is to start for one else, but 767 00:45:53,355 --> 00:45:59,985 we do know skepticism in particular, um, is one that we do have some data on and. 768 00:46:00,420 --> 00:46:05,490 Instead of 50% first year law students on average start about 60%. 769 00:46:06,060 --> 00:46:10,980 So there's already something about going to law school that attracts people who 770 00:46:10,980 --> 00:46:12,690 are a little more skeptical than others. 771 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,100 And then as they go through the three years of law school, two things happen. 772 00:46:17,370 --> 00:46:19,920 One, they get trained to think like a lawyer. 773 00:46:20,310 --> 00:46:23,190 Their skepticism goes up because they're getting that training. 774 00:46:23,550 --> 00:46:28,530 And number two, we have reliable data that people with low skepticism scores drop 775 00:46:28,590 --> 00:46:32,880 out of law school at a predictably higher rate than their high scoring brethren. 776 00:46:33,930 --> 00:46:38,670 And so that means it concentrates the high skeptics because you've taken 777 00:46:38,670 --> 00:46:39,960 the bottom out of the bell curve. 778 00:46:40,830 --> 00:46:46,620 So those two things result in a, uh, a score of graduating lawyers 779 00:46:46,860 --> 00:46:49,740 that is not 60%, it's more like 70%. 780 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,110 Now they get into practice and most of my data comes from partners. 781 00:46:55,110 --> 00:46:58,710 So they've spent eight to 10 years practicing law during 782 00:46:58,710 --> 00:46:59,850 that eight to 10 years. 783 00:47:00,090 --> 00:47:02,220 They're using this trait every day. 784 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,450 So by the time I measure them, they've gone from 70 to 90. 785 00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:08,280 Wow. 786 00:47:08,310 --> 00:47:11,790 So yeah, the experience, they, they start with a little bit of. 787 00:47:12,495 --> 00:47:16,935 Uh, you know, self-selection and now the experience is ramping 788 00:47:16,935 --> 00:47:18,405 that up to a fairly well. 789 00:47:18,945 --> 00:47:22,575 Resilience works the exact same way, but in reverse. 790 00:47:22,965 --> 00:47:28,845 Resilience is highly sensitive to your mindset, to your positivity or negativity. 791 00:47:29,775 --> 00:47:34,035 And people who are skeptical have more of a negative mindset, more 792 00:47:34,035 --> 00:47:36,255 of a pessimistic mindset, and that. 793 00:47:36,765 --> 00:47:39,855 It's like a corrosive that tears down our resilience. 794 00:47:39,855 --> 00:47:42,525 So wherever you start at resilience, you're gonna be lower when you 795 00:47:42,525 --> 00:47:46,995 finish law school because the, the skepticism has lowered it. 796 00:47:47,235 --> 00:47:50,805 And when you use skepticism every day, you're, you're taking a 797 00:47:50,805 --> 00:47:54,675 jackhammer and pounding the resilience into the ground every single day. 798 00:47:55,935 --> 00:47:59,625 So, um, you know, that's, that's thing one. 799 00:48:00,105 --> 00:48:02,535 Um, when you talk about empathy. 800 00:48:03,134 --> 00:48:08,865 That's, uh, a little, uh, squirrelier to, to give you an answer on 801 00:48:08,865 --> 00:48:10,095 because it's a newer trait. 802 00:48:10,095 --> 00:48:13,214 We don't have data going back as long as the others. 803 00:48:13,214 --> 00:48:17,384 It's only recently that it's become an outlier and I've been tracking it. 804 00:48:17,895 --> 00:48:24,435 Um, so I can't really answer it as well, but I can say that empathy 805 00:48:24,435 --> 00:48:26,234 starts pretty low with millennials. 806 00:48:27,015 --> 00:48:27,464 Um. 807 00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:31,830 You know, it's, it's what I call the, the whatever response. 808 00:48:31,950 --> 00:48:37,050 Um, you know, should we, should we look at the role of empathy in practicing law? 809 00:48:37,110 --> 00:48:37,770 Eh, whatever. 810 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:45,060 Um, I mean it, you insert your own joke here. 811 00:48:45,660 --> 00:48:50,820 Um, and then, so that, those are the three learned ones, empathy, 812 00:48:50,820 --> 00:48:52,440 resilience, and skepticism. 813 00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:59,460 You know, this, uh, I knew this was gonna be a great podcast because, uh, again, 814 00:48:59,460 --> 00:49:04,740 I write about your, your, your work and I've listened to you speak and I've 815 00:49:04,740 --> 00:49:08,070 listened to others speak about your work. 816 00:49:08,070 --> 00:49:11,550 And it, yeah, it was, it was Jen Leonard, who I had read your paper 817 00:49:11,580 --> 00:49:13,290 with the art group years ago. 818 00:49:13,830 --> 00:49:13,920 Mm-hmm. 819 00:49:14,490 --> 00:49:16,950 Remembered it, but I, it was Jen who. 820 00:49:17,685 --> 00:49:18,855 Connected the dots. 821 00:49:19,245 --> 00:49:22,695 And, um, and then when I got a chance to, uh, see you speak at Cam, and I, I 822 00:49:22,695 --> 00:49:24,225 knew I had to have you on the podcast. 823 00:49:24,735 --> 00:49:27,765 So, um, this has been absolutely fantastic. 824 00:49:27,795 --> 00:49:32,475 Anyone who's not familiar with your work, who's listening today, I'm sure loved it. 825 00:49:32,925 --> 00:49:38,475 Um, how do, as we're wrapping up here, uh, your, your book is, your 826 00:49:38,475 --> 00:49:40,005 new book is called Thin Skinned. 827 00:49:40,380 --> 00:49:44,310 Why lawyers are slow, so low in resilience and the new science that can help. 828 00:49:44,819 --> 00:49:47,610 When does the book come out and, and how can people find it? 829 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,160 It'll come out in the spring. 830 00:49:50,490 --> 00:49:52,410 Uh, we don't have an exact publication date. 831 00:49:52,410 --> 00:49:54,330 It's up to the American Bar Association. 832 00:49:54,810 --> 00:49:59,130 Uh, and when it is scheduled for publication, it'll be both 833 00:49:59,130 --> 00:50:02,670 on the a BA website and on my own lawyer brainin.com website. 834 00:50:03,780 --> 00:50:04,350 Awesome. 835 00:50:04,770 --> 00:50:07,380 Well, Dr. Richard, I really appreciate you taking the time. 836 00:50:07,380 --> 00:50:11,340 I apologize that it took us a year to get this done, but, um, what a treat. 837 00:50:11,340 --> 00:50:12,300 I really enjoyed it. 838 00:50:12,780 --> 00:50:13,500 Thank you, Ted. 839 00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:15,690 Thanks for your persistence and your great questions. 840 00:50:16,260 --> 00:50:16,830 Awesome. 841 00:50:16,860 --> 00:50:17,880 Alright, take care. 842 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:18,840 Thank you. 843 00:50:18,905 --> 00:50:19,485 Bye bye-Bye. 844 00:50:20,355 --> 00:50:22,605 Thanks for listening to Legal Innovation Spotlight. 845 00:50:23,145 --> 00:50:26,654 If you found value in this chat, hit the subscribe button to be notified 846 00:50:26,654 --> 00:50:28,125 when we release new episodes. 847 00:50:28,605 --> 00:50:31,305 We'd also really appreciate it if you could take a moment to rate 848 00:50:31,305 --> 00:50:33,944 us and leave us a review wherever you're listening right now. 849 00:50:34,544 --> 00:50:37,245 Your feedback helps us provide you with top-notch content. -->