[00:00:00] Paul James, I appreciate you gentlemen joining me on the show today. Thank you. Glad to be here. Happy to be here with you, Ted. Yeah, Paul, I think you and I got connected via TLTF. Um, I can't remember the exact way we got connected, but I heard about some of the work that you were doing there at Sci Farth and found it really interesting and um. Then we had a chance to connect and go through our an agenda session here. And yeah, we got a really, we got a lot of interesting things to talk about, but, um, before we jump in, let's get introductions. Um, Paul, why don't we start with you. Sure. Um, Paul Prize End. I'm an m and a partner at Sci Far Shaw. I've been practicing for 44 years, uh, doing, uh, probably 80, 90% of my, uh, work is doing m and a transactions in the middle market. I've been at Sfar for [00:01:00] 11 years now. And, uh, our practice, uh, for m and a is primarily on the buy side, representing strategic acquisitions, uh, or acquires and private equity firms. Uh, pretty much throughout my career I've always been very process oriented and always interested in making deals faster and more efficient. So that's what our clients, you know, over and over, they wanna make sure that our deals, you know, let's do 'em fast, let's do 'em efficiently, let's get the deal done. So, I, I've also been an early adopter of, uh, technology tools and, uh, engine ai. Good stuff, James. I'm James Dole Lewis. I actually had a prior career, uh, defense SEC. Was a military uniform soldier for a while, and then federal employee and then a contractor. And then at some point I, I ended up circling back around to wanting to go to law school. I went to law school. While I was there, I met Paul. [00:02:00] We hit it off, uh, and, uh, did a summer, first summer picked up a deal. And so I've really just been working with Paul. I'm now in my sixth year entering, entering my sixth year of practice at s Farth. Uh, again, 90% of my work is m and a, a little data privacy, other few things here and there, but primarily m and a under Paul. Uh, mostly tech acquisitions, a little bit of industrial manufacturing. Um, but yeah, and I've been obviously with s the whole time. Um, but with Paul, I think, uh, Paul, Paul is very, like, he, you know, he has an extensive career in m and a, so that he had, like, from day one, I was there to learn m and a. Uh, and one thing that, uh, you know, I think I brought to the table was just sort of, you know, discipline of execution, operations, planning, project management. Team building and working with teams. Uh, and so we kind of put the two together and that it, it's turned out to be pretty productive for us also, you know, making good use of innovation and, and then along game ai and that helped. [00:03:00] Um, so that's kind of where we are today. Good stuff. Well, my listeners, um, have heard me use this, um, this metaphor before and it might ruffle some feathers, but you being a former, former military guy might be able to laugh a little bit with me on it. It's legal innovation for many years was an oxymoron, kinda like military intelligence or jumbo shrimp. Yep, yep, yep. Um, that. I would say, so the innovation function has existed for a little over 10 years. That's when we started to see titles, job titles, with the word innovation in 'em, in law firms. And, uh, I did a, a little bit of research on it. I've been, we've been selling into law firms for many years, and I, I looked at the 2014, uh, ILTA roster. Um, so it was 10 years ago last, this time last year, and looked for how many, how many [00:04:00] built a members had innovation in their title, and there were 16. So it was very new. There were no, there were no chiefs. Um, just a handful of directors and a couple innovation attorneys. So I, I do, you know, I, I use that, um, I use that, that joke with love. Um. Innovation professionals are who we sell to for the most part. And things have come a long way. You know, I think AI has really, I think when innovation started in legal, it was, it was a, an idea that where they would task some folks with innovation tasks. They weren't always properly empowered or funded, or there wasn't a strong commitment. To the change necessary to truly innovate. But I would say since chat, GPT, um, what is, I guess it's, is that [00:05:00] four years ago now, three years ago, um, that commitment has, uh, really gained momentum because I think, you know, like most observers, you know, AI can be an, you know, an existential threat. Or a massive opportunity, depending on your approach. So, um, when we chatted the last time, you guys talked about your journey and the first thing that you mentioned, which I thought was interesting, is you talked about being curious and finding ways to improve the m and a process. Paul, you, why don't we start with you? How, how did that curiosity. Um, manifest itself and what inspired it? I guess it goes back like, even like 10 years ago. We were looking for ways that we could take our process and that we could work [00:06:00] with clients. Especially we were experimenting with things like, like, you know, typical tools like Microsoft OneNote and using, uh, Smartsheets and using other type of. More of the, the readily available tools, but to work with the clients is a way, way of, of collaborating and making things faster. 'cause a lot of times the teams we are working with would be, there may be 10 people on our client's team, and there may be other people, the number of people, uh, the, the subject matter experts and others that we're working with here at s Farth. And so there's a lot of coordination. So we've always been very interested in that. And probably it was in January of 2022. Uh, the American Bar Association has a technology and m and a subcommittee, and Casey Flaherty of L Fusion gave a presentation and it was basically, you can use legal [00:07:00] project management. This was all pre ai. You know, this goes back before ai. You can use legal project management in a way. You can make your deals faster and more efficient. And Casey had been at an, at a law firm, is part of the legal project management group, and he gave this great presentation sort of breaking each phase of a transaction down and different tools and different ways that you could make deals faster and more efficient. And so James and I were all ears, uh, listening to it and, and see how could we make things. Faster and more effective. And then we contacted Casey and we had, I think it was like an hour and a half, two and a half, two hour discussion sort of working through what are, what are ways that we could use legal project management. And of course James with his military background, he was very familiar with project management and how to do things. And you know, throughout our [00:08:00] experience together, he's always been. Talking to me about we can do these things a whole lot more efficiently. And so, but after our discussion with Casey and we really wanted more of like, Casey, isn't there a playbook? I mean, can we just get a cookbook recipe, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and it's all gonna be better? He said, no, no, Paul, that's, that's just not the way it works. 'cause your workflow is different. From everybody else's workflow. So you've gotta look at your workflow and then apply the legal process, legal progress, legal process management to, to make it more efficient and, and all. So, uh, James, I, I don't know if you have anything to, to add there. I say when I, when I first started working with Paul, again, I didn't know anything about the m&a, but I knew how to define the desired end state and then what are the lines of effort that are gonna get you there and how do you backwards plan? And so pretty early on I was like, okay. [00:09:00] An m and a transaction has a a beginning, it has a discreet end. This looks like an operation. Uh, we were really fortunate. One of the clients that I was working with, a strategic acquirer, they had hired a new analyst at the time who was all, who's currently is military, but he was also, uh, um, military. And he and I just had a, a little sidebar one day and we were both like, why can't we make this more like an ops process? There's gotta be a way to do it so we. Kind of came up with a way at our level to get sort of our associate level type stuff done, a way of thinking, organizing, communicating. We just sort of realized that, look, we're gonna get this because this is how we speak and we understand that, um, this isn't probably gonna work for like greater stakeholder communication. We're not worried about let's just get the deal done over time. You know, there start, it stopped being like this foreign thing that we were dragging out of our military experience, out of my military experience and into my m and a practice, and I started to see a lot of correlate correlations with, you [00:10:00] know, other people talking about legal project management. Something that Paul, Paul, I think got me a book two or three years in on legal project management, and it was really just like, how do I take these good ideas and then make them where they actually work with the people and the teams and the tools that we have. And then use the right words. And then when we stumbled on, you know, a case of Polarity's initial presentation, it's like, okay, now, now I have a framework. So I'm not just talking about things from the military that I'm trying to borrow to make sense, like to forcing a square peg into a round hole. Now there's a way of talking about it and it things just start, everything just sort of started to click. Clients started to understand it. Other people we were working with started to understand it. They really gave us a framework and a vocabulary. Um, and uh, and you know, Seyfarth has s Farth lean. You know, we were already in fertile ground in terms of like trying to get, have these conversations and get these things done and implement it for, for, for our practices. And so it, it really just sort of all, everything sort of [00:11:00] converged around that timeframe and that's where we really saw a great, you know, explosion in productivity and efficiency. I think we really sort of hit, hit our, uh, we say like, hit the flywheel has to, when. Yeah, you know, Casey hit my radar, I guess it was maybe a little longer than 10 years ago, I think he was still an inside lawyer at Kia, I believe it was Kia. And he created a tech assessment for his outside legal partners, which really made me chuckle as someone who at that point had been selling into legal for quite some time. Um. You know, I, we've come a long way since then in terms of lawyers' willingness and eagerness to embrace tech. It was a different world, uh, back then. But, um, Paul, from a Do you, how, [00:12:00] how does being more efficient impact. The business. Do you work on alternative fee structures with the m and a work that, that you do? Is it, is it hourly? Is it a combination? And how did being efficient impact your top line? We work almost entirely on an hourly basis. That's what it's always been. And the, the clients, what they really, really care about is speed and efficiency. And so they generally have, you know, here's the LOI and they have a target timeframe. This is the timeframe that we want to get something done. A lot of times that timeframe gets accelerated. There's normally a business reason why they wanna do something. We have one deal in particular where they initially said, we wanna close it on January 31st of this particular year. And then probably about, uh, three weeks out, they said, well, there is a strong business [00:13:00] reason we want to close on January 24th. And it's like. Okay. So, and, and about that same time the seller was dumping like 5,000 documents in the data room. And it was like, okay, we're just gonna, we're we're gonna get this deal done. So, you know, we, we scrambled, we got it done. But, um, you know, part of this, you know, part of the journey and especially doing a lot of deals for the same client, we had one client in particular who. You know, came to us and said, you know, we have a lot of different Lois that are out there right now. We have, and right now we have, there are like four deals that we think there's, uh, a good possibility that we may be able to get all four deals under LOI. And so we can see that's gonna put, put a big strain on, you know, your capabilities and everything else. You can't be in four places at one time. You [00:14:00] know, can you do it? So of course we said of course we can. But it really made us start thinking more deeply into the whole legal project management and the things that we had learned from Casey and the things we are starting to implement. 'cause it's really breaking down a transaction. It's, it's transaction, just it, it's a project. And so you are breaking it down into discrete task and you're trying to create a repeatable process. And so it's also about expanding the team so that other members of the team understand your process and the client, what the client's expectations are, so that you know, even if you have two or three different teams that are doing the transactions, they're all executing in the way that the client wants you to, to execute. Yeah. And do you, do you work primarily on the buy side? Yes, probably about 70% of the time is on the buy side, [00:15:00] 30% on on the sell side. So on the buy side you can create more of repeatable processes, but on the sell side too. Sitting down with a client and walking through the process and things they can do to speed up the process. 'cause a lot of times we tell 'em, if you'll do these two or three things upfront, this is gonna make the whole process go so much quicker. And so it's, um, you know, it, it applies equally on whether you're on the buy side or the sell side, but certainly on the buy side when you. Transactions, you know, for the same group and the same expectations, and everybody's get, you know, comes along with the, with the same expectations. Yeah, I was gonna say, on the sell side, you probably have a lot of opportunity to coach the seller along and understand [00:16:00] what to expect on the buy side. Those are typically. You know, um, they have a m and a machine. Um, but you know, sellers, uh, probably not. So I would imagine, um, I would imagine your process, the fact that you had mapped out your processes and have a structured approach to delivering on a transaction, probably added a lot of value. Is, is that accurate, James? I would just say I, yes, I would say that I think it's one thing to turn it into a machine and just consistently deliver a poor quality product, right? That's highly efficient. That's not our goal. That's, that's not what we've been doing. Right? So how do you, how do you do all of that and it still be high quality? How do you have folks come in that are subject matter experts, for example? You need them to come in to deal with this, uh, this com particular component. Transaction and get over this roadblock, but you need their [00:17:00] answer to be tailored to the facts at hand, tailored to this deal. And that acknowledges and respects the, the business interest of the parties. Those seem like, like a, you know, a well tailored, um, uh, product and, you know, speed and efficiency on the surface. They, they feel like zero sum games. So how do you do that? And it isn't just about having forms and having calendars, it's also about how do you identify, have you thought through what are the components of a deal? What are the prerequisites of every step, and what's the level at which this is the highest and best use of, of, of what level person to do this task? I can flex tasks down to people who are lower billers or to paralegals or other folks. Uh, when that's appropriate, it's easy for me to identify that this is what we need to do in order to, uh, allow us to continue to produce high quality work that's also, uh, [00:18:00] efficient. Same thing with, you know, working with the, with subject matter experts where I know exactly what they need to know. I have a set, you know, I know what they need to know. We can bring them on, we can brief them up on the deal and, uh, and we understand how to coach them through to the end product. So then everything dovetails together and that's much more, I think, a mindful process. Than just, you know, timelines and Gantt charts. Well, and, you know, uh, timelines and Gantt charts are important. I mean, understanding dependencies and how impact to timelines cascade and ultimately impact. I'm a Lean Six Sigma black belt. I did, um. Six Sigma work in financial services for many years. In fact, I, one of my first gigs in legal was a default services firm. Uh, we who was small but scaling rapidly. This was like oh 8, 0 9. Mm-hmm. [00:19:00] Default services was very hot market, legal market as you can imagine during the great recession. And, um, we went in there and overhauled their entire. Um, business put up monitors. So they had about kind of eight pods that delivered one piece of the value chain. And we had control charts with metrics that would show downstream, downstream impact to, um, you know, um, subsequent dependent steps. And it was, it was amazing. And, you know, I really thought. This is gonna take off like more firms are gonna do this and. It absolutely did not happen. Um, you know, it seemed like such a, I mean, a BA journal wrote an article about the, I mean, centerpiece on the cover. Um, and, you know, we were thinking, you know, we were doing technology and process work at the time we were, it used to be a consulting [00:20:00] I. Company company. And I thought my phone is gonna be ringing off the hook when these law firms read about what we did. Uh, and it, that just didn't happen. And I, I firmly believe that the reason is of the perverse incentives of the billable hour, that ultimately, um, you have to really take a big picture perspective, like, like you guys are with, if you serve the client better and you deliver predictability and high value. Work. Your, your hopper will, will always stay full. And I think there's a lot of short term thinking sometimes that drive behaviors with, well, hey, that's gonna reduce my billable hours. How am I gonna get to 1600 or whatever the firm's billable quota is for that attorney. So, um, Paul, it sounds like you guys. We talk a lot about Java's [00:21:00] Paradox now with ai, how when you lower the cost of a, a product or a service, demand increases because more people have access to it. Um, it sounds like you guys figured out much earlier than most than that. If you take a big picture view and good things happen. I think that's exactly right. Uh, I, I will say that the past five years, right after COVID, the initial, you know, COVID hit in 2020, uh, and then starting with, uh, really the latter part of 2020 to, to the present. It's been the, it's been the busiest five years of my career. I mean, there have just been so much, we, so many deals and transactions and everything else. It was a great time for James to start, you know, working with me. 'cause we just had so many different things to do. And so coming up with the legal project management and then [00:22:00] other efficiencies, uh, clients were just really happy with the things that we were doing. And so it was always music to my ears when a client at the end of the deal would say. Paul, everything went so smoothly, it went so well, you know, thank you very much. And so that's music to my ears when, especially when somebody says, you know, you, you guys made it look so easy. And we know there was so much work that went into it to make it look easy. So that's, that's our goal. And so clients have been very happy with what we've done. And, you know, hopefully they'll continue to, to give us, give us a call. Yeah. James, you look like you were gonna say something there. Well, well, I think you, you hit on it really, really early on, Ted, when you asked about the intellectual curiosity component where you know it. Um, I, I, I understand, you know what attorneys they will wanna focus. Like you wouldn't be an m and a attorney and one the best m and a [00:23:00] attorney like. And so you're just m and a all day. It's all you. That's what you focus on. You eat, breathe and, and sleep m and a. Uh, that's great. Um, the, I think that one thing that I've appreciated working with Paul is that Paul recognizes and respects sort of bandwidth for bigger areas of curiosity. And it's just, you know, and, and that it's encouraged, that's highly encouraged that, that, you know. Uh, again, in our firm, our firm culture is very, you know, pro that. And, and, uh, and so one of the things that I think formed the relationship between Paul and I very early on was just our interest in, in technology, just that intellectual curiosity piece. And even at the time, maybe it wasn't readily apparent that that would ever translate into. Something meaningful for our, our day-to-day practice. But it was still worthwhile. It still interested us. We still paid attention to what was going on in the, in the bigger world. Um, we talked about it. Um, and so that, that intellectual curiosity, uh, then, you know, [00:24:00] was already there. Then when, you know, we, we paid attention to the practice and started seeing that there were advantages that we could actually put something that we, we personally liked to use in the m and a practice, in a, in a, in a practical like way that could actually be implemented. Um, then you, you know, you start looking at these deals and, and you start seeing there where the inefficiencies are. Then because we've already been paying attention and, and participating in the dialogue, um, on what was happening in legal technology, we could start to solution hunt, um, to fill those inefficiencies. So we didn't, we didn't fall into the trap. I think that a lot of people, and again, I'm sympathetic, a lot of people fall, fall into the trap of like. This look like there, the tool looks interesting, but not really understanding that the, the problem and the problem definition is the precursor for the right tool. Um, and that, and that could be a real challenge. And again, I'm, uh, we're in a [00:25:00] great, I, I'm a great relationship with Paul and, and we're in a firm that really encourages that kind of thinking and this, the, that kind of approach to the practice. So we got lucky there, um, where we were able to make it work. And one example of that, the. We were seeing, like when we get an LOI, we were seeing there, there's probably 10 things that we need to be doing very quickly and to gather information, you know, from different places and everything else, and put putting everything together. And we were looking at a process and we were seeing it was taking a week to get to where we really needed to be. So we, we broke it down into discrete tasks and we basically said we can make this into. Basically we, we can do this within hours. Literally we can, you know, reduce it. And a lot of it was educating the client. You know, you don't, if you can do these things very quickly. We can speed up the process dramatically. And once we explain that to the client, you know, [00:26:00] you are being a bottleneck to some extent because you're not pushing things forward. And here's the benefit to you. We can take that, that initial one week process, why is it taking so long? Because all you know, people are busy and everything else. Let's reduce it to one day and here's the benefit. And they were like, the light bulb went off and they were like. This is great. Okay. We got it. We got it. And so then applying that to everything else that we were doing. Yeah. You know, uh, so I am CEO of the company, but I manage the revenue team. Um, I just have a passion for it. Eventually we'll get big enough where I'll have to bring in a proper, uh, CRO, but I'm, I'm the, I'm the, the hack job CRO right now. And we have a saying. Here at Info dash, and it's not unique to us that people say in sales, say this all the time, and that is time kills deals, right? Mm-hmm. It's, it is the biggest killer of deals that exists [00:27:00] and, you know, for a number of reasons, um, priorities shift. Um. New competitive threats can enter the equation. There's a million. You can have a, a, a key stakeholder or champion for the deal, leave the firm. There's a million reasons why time kills deals. And that's true in an m and a scenario too. Right? So if you are delivering quick transactions more quickly, I would imagine you're also reducing risk. Is that, is that accurate? And that's, that's got value. It's hard to quantify, but, um, where when I did my six Sigma training at the bank to, to get a green belt, you had to deliver $250,000 in, um, revenue generation or cost savings, or [00:28:00] you had to do a million dollars to get your black belt. Well, both my green and my black belt, they were, I was in risk management, um, roles and so we could never demonstrate revenue. Increases, but we, we delivered risk mitigation. And, um, there's a real dollar value you can associate with that. So, uh, good, good for you guys. Um, helping your clients ultimately save money or make more money, however you wanna look at it. Um. Well let, let's talk a little bit about kind of the experimentation. And Paul, you, you, you said a, a a saying that we, we hear a lot these days and it's absolutely true and it's, you know, today's AI is the worst AI you'll you'll ever have. So, I mean, how, how do you, tell me about what, um, what your thinking is in regards to that. Well, the AI, I guess, was introduced, you know, to the general public was NOV [00:29:00] what it was, uh, like November uh, 2022. And I guess I learned about it probably in January, February of 2023. And I read one article and I can't remember if it was, uh, Casey Flaherty or Ethan Mick, and emphasize the point, this is the worst AI that you're ever gonna have. And it's just gonna keep getting better and better. And so I always looked at it from that standpoint of let's start experimenting with it. What exactly can it do and how can it help us in different ways? And yes, there's hallucinations, there's issues and everything else. I mean, early on it was more of a, you know, it's something that, it's really interesting, but it wasn't truly delivering great results. And I guess I always liked Ethan Mo saying of. AI is a jagged frontier. There's some things it does really, really well, and there's some things that just doesn't do [00:30:00] very well, and the only way to really learn what it does well and doesn't do well is just by experimenting. And so early on we were experimenting, and then as each model kept getting better and better and better. It became more and more useful and I really think the big aha moment for me with respect to law was when the reasoning models came out and it's, it's hard to remember, but it's really only been a year. When, uh, I guess the, the reasoning models, deep research came out. I went and looked it up. It was, uh, February of 2025. So it just, it's less than 12 months. Yeah. And that was oh one preview. Yep. It was the real unlock when I saw, okay. Deep research. You could do a deep research on a subject matter. You could get citations, you could go and verify and everything else, and you could get a fir, a 15 page report on a subject [00:31:00] area. And it was like, this is incredible. And then started to think through how is that gonna apply to law and how are things gonna start getting better and better? And I remember we were doing some demos with one particular vendor at the time that had a product for due diligence. Right as deep research was coming out. And so we said, are you gonna be getting this, uh, soon? And they were just, you could just see the smile on their face when they said, yes, we are getting it next Tuesday, we're gonna incorporate in our product. And you can start seeing where the products we're gonna get better and better 'cause of the advanced capabilities. So. It's just been fascinating to, to watch it and to then experiment with it and then just see how can it drive efficiencies as well as to expand the type of things that we could do with it. Yeah. And you know, so, um, I'm curious of your take on this, James. So, [00:32:00] as a process guy, my mind always goes there. First, I think, I think about technology, even though I own a software business, I think about. Technology second or third down, down the list. I always start with process because the, your, your technology needs to support your process, but you have to know what your process is. Mm-hmm. And so much of legal work is bespoke. And, you know, LPM was really hot 10 years ago. Everybody was talking about it. It, it really didn't get the momentum that I would've expected it to. And I think in large part, again, it's the perverse incentives of the billable hour. But, um, I always think of process first. I would imagine you, you two, James, and, and how important is that when you're. Thinking about making some [00:33:00] investment in ai, whether you're buying a tool or building something or getting your people trained, like how important is starting with the process? Well, I, I think it's critical. It's, it's probably the second, the second most important thing with the first most important thing being, what exactly are you trying to do? I want you, you define like, what do we do here? Mm-hmm. Uh, okay, so how do we do those things? And I, I do think the tools. Uh, you know, they, the tools follow, you know, what, what's the need? Um, yeah, what, what's the step in the process? What can you achieve? Can I make this more efficient? You don't have to use every tool for everything. Uh, and when AI came out, I think we definitely wondered where, uh, like how it would plug in. Knew from the beginning that it was going to, that, that whatever we could see it doing today would evolve. And so it was more like, do we understand [00:34:00] what we're doing in our practice and, and what the processes, uh, we are using what those are. Then ai isn't that intimidating? 'cause it's, it's gonna, you're gonna see it emerge as a useful tool in one area. Today. Maybe that will expire and it'll emerge. But that's not scary because you are, you, the process is, is the, you know, the process is, is the solid ground that you're standing on. And, you know, there were some great people early on. I mean, uh, Paul mentioned, uh, Ethan Molik. Uh, I just throw out like the brainiac blog by Josh Vicki, uh, came out super accessible and that was something that was easy for us to recommend other people to, to them to kind of get their feet wet because he just super accessible these short little stories. And then, you know, Jay, um, uh, I'm a bit of a fan of Jay. Um, she, she, to me, she, early on, she just had some very. In intelligent ways of just encapsulating some complex issues [00:35:00] into just like some good, you know, sound bites that made things that were very difficult to explain, you know, much more accessible, I think. And I think she was very insightful early on. Uh, just throw out that both Josh Kki, Josh Kki, and our Spath alumni throw that there. Because of the, the, there were people early on that were saying, this isn't that scary and we're, that made it accessible. Um, and then we've just, uh, paid attention to and experimented. We've been willing to take the risks to experiment, um, and, and paid attention to the things that make that work. Paul, to the extent you're comfortable sharing, what parts of the process has AI really enabled? I think due diligence is a big, is a big one because when we think about transactions, one of the biggest variables is how many documents are gonna be uploaded [00:36:00] to the data room, what's the timing of providing the information in the data room? And we haven't encountered a number of situations where sometimes the seller will hold back. On providing all of the documents and information until they see, you know, things, the, the deal is moving along, they feel more comfortable in everything else. Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden we get all of this data, you know, dumped into the data room, and when you break it down, you think, okay, all, you know, 5,000 documents, whatever the number is in the data room, that's unstructured data. So can you And, and yes, it's in folders and you ask people to do it a certain way, but a lot of times things are in the wrong places. They're mislabeled. There are a lot of other things. So you're taking unstructured data, you're organizing it. I mean, that's something that AI can do really, really well. And then you are analyzing it. You know, that's something again, that AI can help you do that a lot [00:37:00] quicker, especially if you're talking about a hundred, 200, 300. Contracts or documents or other things that you're, you're trying to, for a specific area, you're trying to analyze it, then you're trying to, you know, figure out what are you gonna do with it and talking with your client and analyzing and, and, and making action steps. And then you're preparing report. 'cause many of our transactions involved, reps and warranty insurance when we're representing the buyer. And so part of that process is that we have to, uh, prepare a report. All these different areas and put that into, you know, a good, you know, good solid format and, and help the RWI carrier understand the due diligence that we've done. So all of those pieces that can be very time consuming and to the extent that AI can reduce that timeframe, that's really helpful. And so that's what we identified early on. Due diligence is one area and we, we we're very open with our [00:38:00] clients. In talking to them about, you know, these are, there's some new tools, there's different things that we can do to be able to speed up the process. And so we've actually had clients say, well, we're interested in using those same tools as well and collaborating, and we're, we're encouraging it. So, and we're, we're in the early stages, I would say, of experimentation of how to use these tools for the, the best effect, collaborating with client and everything and everything else. But, uh, I think it's happening very, very quickly 'cause everybody's recognizing there's a lot of efficiencies to be gained. And that's what clients want. They want deals done fast. They want it done efficiently and they wanna mitigate risk. Those are the three areas and, uh, these new tools can help us do that. Are you seeing outside council guidelines still that preventing the use of ai?[00:39:00] I, I think it's a wide, it's a wide range of what different clients, uh, want. I would say our clients. Uh, the ones that we are dealing with are more of, uh, I guess they're, they're, they're, they're more understanding in terms of, and we're talking to them on a regular basis. This is what we're doing, this is how we're doing it. And so we haven't encountered any difficulty there, but we've been very open. For how we're using it. And it's interesting, we see where the clients are very much using it. 'cause early on we had some clients where, uh, they were, they were preparing a lot of products and it's like, wow, you're, this is really good. Some of the analysis that you're doing and everything else. And they would sheepishly say, well, you know, we did use AI to help us with that. So, hey, this is Greg. So it's, [00:40:00] it's very much of a, of a collaborative, uh, effort, you know, working with clients and in talking openly about ways that we can make the process better. But, uh, uh, in all. I'll say Ted, I mean that, that, that whole like co-pro solving component, uh, with, with us and our practice and our, our specific clients that there, there's very little friction there, if any. I mean, their concerns are our concerns. We're all concerned about security. We're all concerned about how do you keep track of errors and track them down and make sure that your output, you know, is, is verified. That, and that's actually the easy part. But I think if your, if your question touches on the bigger picture, I think initially there were a lot of outside council guidelines that sort of were flooding in and it was no, and it wasn't a, i I, I'm not, I can't speculate on sort of what deliberation process, but it seemed very sort of like, no, until we can figure this out, which I think is probably fair as an initial reaction. We have now seen that [00:41:00] evolve and that's, that doesn't seem to be good with clients coming to us talking about, you know, talking about, listen, let's, let's talk about how we can both gain efficiencies by integrating ai, encouraging the use of ai, um, within much more, what I think is much more sophisticated understanding of what AI can and cannot do, where it's going and what we need to do to make it work. And I think that's just natural. Yeah, all that makes sense to me. I thought we were really kind of past the point where there was a lot of restrictions, OCG related restrictions to ai because there's, you know, it's such a compelling. It's such a compelling value proposition for the clients. Um, but we just had a, interestingly, we just recently had a deal with our, um, our, uh, software licensing agreement. We got a red line back from a firm that asked to put in there that our product did not deliver any AI capabilities, which [00:42:00] is what I, I thought was very interesting, you know, kind of at this stage in the game, but clearly. There's some OCG driving that. Um, I can't imagine why else. Um, but it, the reality is, and we are not, uh, we are not an AI platform. We're kind of AI adjacent. So we deploy what's called our integration hub into the law firm, which is an Azure appliance that has integrations into all the back office systems, and then law firms can build AI solutions using. Microsoft's tools like Azure AI search, Azure Open AI, copilot, power Automate. Um, so we do enable, um, and we are building out use cases for clients, but we're not like an AI need. So I thought that was, that was an interesting, um, provision to see get redlined in, you know, in, in 2026. But I figured it was OCG related. [00:43:00] I think there's a few things that, that are probably gonna, and maybe, you know, these may be new dynamics and new completely other dynamics will emerge as the new issues later. But I mean, you know, there, there are questions from the insurance and the insurance industry on how do we. Provide coverage for claims related to ai. You know, the, from claims arising from AI related acts and occurrences. Um, there's, AI law is very much an active, you know, area right now. And when the law is really active, that can cause a lot of uncertainty and people who are trying to make sound decisions based on, you know, where those potential liabilities might fall. Um, and those, those are new dynamics, relatively new dynamics. Maybe they'll get resolved in a new set. We'll emerge later, but, um, the real advantage is being sort of actively participating and being present so that it, as these new dynamics emerge and fall away, you know, you can meet, you can meet the challenges where they as they come. Yeah, that's a great point. Uh, just from a risk perspective, it could be, [00:44:00] you know, liability related, um, you know, and, uh, interesting. Well, we're almost outta time, but I wanted to touch on, on this last, uh, topic. On our list here, which is around culture. And I am of the belief and opinion that culture is so incredibly important, such an important influencer in the ultimate outcome of really any change initiative, but especially a big drastic change. Like, you know, this tech transformation that we're undergoing right now as an industry. So, um. Paul, what is, how has Sci FARs culture really propelled and put wind at your back as you've decided to invest and take some chances and try some new things? Like how has the, the [00:45:00] culture impacted that? SFI has always had a culture of innovation. It goes back 20 years when Steve Poor was bringing legal project management and working with the a CC challenge 'cause he clients were asking for efficiency and so there was a lot of things that he put into place 20 years ago that's continued to permeate throughout the organization. And I would say more recently, we have a new, uh, it's been about a year to two years, a new managing partner, uh, Lori Alman. And she has been very encouraging, uh, uh, that we have a culture of innovation. We want experiment. We, there's a number of things that we put in place to deliver that message to everybody. That we want to encourage people to innovate and we want to, to encourage experimentation. One thing that we did recently, I guess it's been the second year in a row, we started a science fair and the [00:46:00] whole idea was for people to come up with different projects, just like a, you know, grade school, science fair and everything else of like what is a problem. Wouldn't it be great to have a technology or process or other innovation? I dunno, the summer of a year ago. And I think everybody was surprised by how much people really got into it. And so it was a great success. Uh, and they did it. They did again recently, and again, it was even more successful. And then part of what they did is they said, you know, even bring us your half-baked ideas. And so I think the key point of it was to identify what are pain points that you are experiencing, and let's see if we can, uh, try and try and solve them. And I think it, that's also been a big part of our culture is what's the problem you're trying to solve? Yes, there's a lot of, [00:47:00] you know, fancy tools and this and that, whatever, but what's the problem you're trying to solve? Will this technology or tool, will it solve the problem? And then how do we, you know, put into place, implement it, and then deliver a value to a client? That's the end, end, end results that we are trying to achieve with that. And so, and I think the, the, the culture of innovation, it's been great. Yeah. James, coming from military background, I have idea. Innovation culture would be, uh, in, in the military. But like how has, um, in your time there at sth, how has the culture impacted the work that, that, that you're doing and your ability to get buy-in? Yeah, I mean, I think. The, the biggest component here. I mean, look, the, the what, what innovation as a platform means that changes over [00:48:00] time. I know, not to speak for Paul, but when Paul first was looking to transition over to, to Sfar, that was one of the things that brought him on board to sci far what that looks like. Obviously, as he just explained, that's changed over time. But I mean, when you're. One component that talking to, you know, my colleagues and other friends who at other law firms or, or, uh, in other contexts, um, the power distance culture at our firm is very, very different. So military, I always wanted to call like, yes sir, yes ma'am. With people, you know, with Paul and with other folks. And immediately I got that got shut down. Um, and, uh, which just, you know, that was just me and I just had to deal with it. However, uh, you know, that's just surface. The, the reality is, I, I can, I can. A senior level, uh, equity partner at this firm, uh, I have so much access to him and his perspectives and his time. I have zero qualms with calling. If I needed to, calling the head of our m and a department, uh, [00:49:00] calling the head of our corporate department, if I had an issue, it was appropriate, I would not hesitate. Uh, I, um, and the, the, really, there isn't anyone that I feel is untouchable or, or, or that I could not approach. It is fair if I approach someone with an issue for them to ask me to justify if I want something, I need to become ready to, to, to make my argument. I'm a lawyer, I'm ready to do that. That's not a problem. Uh, and then if it makes sense, great, let's do it. I've never been shut down. Um, and that is absolutely an issue of power distance. It's absolutely an issue of sort of culture, not just being a value, but it being something that the firm is in, like put the money where its mouth is. Um, and really it's about the mission focus. I mean, another one of our strong val uh, values is client service. And it like, what are we doing here? It's not, you know, to, to gain our self-esteem by treating other people like peons. But it is, we are here to be, we are a law firm. We provide [00:50:00] services, and if someone comes with an argument that we, that that's compelling, I'm gonna listen to that argument. Um, and that has been a huge change. Um, uh, for me that has been a huge advantage in terms of the, my career growth, my ability to both. Become a good m and a attorney and do the things that I need to be doing to learn how to be, you know, the, the attorney I wanna be, and also develop a practice at the same time. That parallel growth, I just can't see how that would've happened without that intersection of, of these, these, these sort of cultural dynamics at our firm. And quickly, what is power distance? We're strong hierarchies where, you know, people who are, you know, you don't talk to senior partners until they talk to you kind of a scenario, which is very military. It can be very military. Um, but, uh, that's just, it just isn't here in, in the firm. Everyone's accessible. Yeah. And that's encouraging to hear. I think. Um, you know, I, I, I spent some time in other industries before [00:51:00] focusing in on legal and, um, you know, there. Culture and the tone at the top. We used to call it the tone that the leadership. Sets cascades its way down. And I think law firms are now actually fighting an interesting battle. I know firms who at the very top, at the executive committee level, understand the need for change and have brought in and made promises to, um, you know, folks from McKinsey and Bain and BCG, these big. Who were partners there and brought 'em in and told 'em we're ready for change. And the ex comm's ready for change. And a lot of the younger attorneys that come in that are comfortable with tech, it's that middle tier where they're hitting resistance. And I'm friends with some people and they kind of tell me behind closed doors. That's where the friction point is, which I think is so interesting. And. [00:52:00] It takes a while. You can't, when, when the tone at the top has been status quo for 30 years or more, and then you do an about face and say, we're ready to change. You can't do that overnight. That's gonna take repetitive messaging and people, uh, reward systems, you know, that reward people for coming to the table, kind of like, you know, your science fair. So kudos to all the good work you guys are doing. Um, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate both you guys, uh, spending a little bit of time with me here today. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Alright, thanks guys. We'll, uh, we'll chat soon, I'm sure. Thanks, Dan. Alright, take care. Thanks for listening to Legal Innovation Spotlight. If you found value in this chat, hit the subscribe button to be notified when we release new episodes. 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