1 00:00:02,100 --> 00:00:05,989 Richard Trommans, how are you this afternoon your time? 2 00:00:06,164 --> 00:00:06,968 Yeah, very good. 3 00:00:06,968 --> 00:00:07,229 Thanks. 4 00:00:07,229 --> 00:00:08,221 Very good. 5 00:00:09,590 --> 00:00:10,302 Yeah, very good. 6 00:00:10,302 --> 00:00:11,092 How are you? 7 00:00:11,092 --> 00:00:11,824 doing great. 8 00:00:11,824 --> 00:00:13,027 I'm doing great. 9 00:00:13,027 --> 00:00:14,540 So I think everybody knows you. 10 00:00:14,540 --> 00:00:20,282 You've been on the podcast before, but just 30 second intro for those that haven't are familiar. 11 00:00:20,454 --> 00:00:20,674 sure. 12 00:00:20,674 --> 00:00:24,194 So I spent 25 years or more working in the legal market. 13 00:00:24,194 --> 00:00:32,074 I've worked with journalists, market analysts, management consultants, strategy consultant, innovation consultant. 14 00:00:32,334 --> 00:00:39,734 I started writing about AI in 2015 and I started artificial lawyer in 2016 during that first wave. 15 00:00:40,374 --> 00:00:46,234 And I also chair and have helped create several conferences called Legal Innovators. 16 00:00:46,294 --> 00:00:47,745 And yeah. 17 00:00:47,745 --> 00:00:50,098 It's a good time to be in legal tech. 18 00:00:50,098 --> 00:00:51,299 It is, it is. 19 00:00:51,299 --> 00:00:59,872 It's, uh I think there's a lot of fear, uncertainty and doubt, but I'm having a blast, you know, covering the space and our time. 20 00:00:59,872 --> 00:01:06,965 We started the podcast shortly after ChatGPT came out, 3.5, and our timing was good. 21 00:01:06,965 --> 00:01:08,906 They wasn't related. 22 00:01:08,906 --> 00:01:19,580 We were, so InfoDash is an intranet extranet company and we focus exclusively on law firms and we sell primarily to KM and innovation teams and 23 00:01:19,678 --> 00:01:30,311 When, when innovation first came out in legal, which was about 10 years ago, I did a study, uh, looked at the Ilta roster in 2014. 24 00:01:30,311 --> 00:01:34,286 were 16 people on the Ilta roster that had innovation in their title. 25 00:01:34,286 --> 00:01:37,047 Today there's close to 400. 26 00:01:37,548 --> 00:01:42,401 in the beginning of the opinion that innovation was KM rebranded. 27 00:01:42,401 --> 00:01:48,734 Uh, but just over the last few years, I'm seeing a shift and, uh, there is real. 28 00:01:49,020 --> 00:01:53,051 efforts and resources being put towards innovation. 29 00:01:53,552 --> 00:02:11,258 had Michelle DeFestano uh from University of Miami on a few episodes ago, and she wrote a paper in 2019 about uh the CINO role, Chief Innovation Officer, and the paper was titled, 30 00:02:11,258 --> 00:02:16,801 uh The CINO Role, Roles, Holes, and Goals. 31 00:02:16,801 --> 00:02:18,281 And she interviewed 32 00:02:18,867 --> 00:02:21,658 probably every Cino there was at the time. 33 00:02:21,839 --> 00:02:26,301 And, uh, it, did a really good job documenting like what their priorities are. 34 00:02:26,301 --> 00:02:33,945 And there was a, there was a, admission on the part of Cino's that a lot of it was marketing. 35 00:02:34,045 --> 00:02:35,096 It was focused around. 36 00:02:35,096 --> 00:02:36,726 We want to look innovative. 37 00:02:36,957 --> 00:02:38,528 that is now shifting. 38 00:02:38,528 --> 00:02:42,670 And, so we're well positioned with, yeah. 39 00:02:42,670 --> 00:02:45,872 I mean, I'm seeing, I'm seeing real, I'm seeing real. 40 00:02:45,872 --> 00:02:46,792 Yeah. 41 00:02:48,073 --> 00:02:48,665 Yeah. 42 00:02:48,665 --> 00:02:56,662 always it's always good to be a bit cynical uh about all all press releases, frankly. 43 00:02:56,662 --> 00:02:59,114 But but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 44 00:02:59,114 --> 00:02:59,615 No, it is. 45 00:02:59,615 --> 00:03:00,095 It is. 46 00:03:00,095 --> 00:03:03,463 think there's more happening for real now than for a long time. 47 00:03:03,463 --> 00:03:09,700 Yeah, and your timing with Legal Innovators, the conference is outstanding as well. 48 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:15,375 Why don't you tell us a little bit about the conference, what its focus is, and then we'll dive in a little deeper. 49 00:03:15,534 --> 00:03:16,834 Yeah, thanks, Ted. 50 00:03:16,834 --> 00:03:19,254 It's funny you should ask that question. 51 00:03:21,734 --> 00:03:22,894 But you know, thank you. 52 00:03:22,894 --> 00:03:23,834 I appreciate it. 53 00:03:23,834 --> 00:03:30,674 So basically, so Legal Innovators is a series of events that we do in California. 54 00:03:30,674 --> 00:03:34,134 There's one coming up 11th 12th of June in San Francisco. 55 00:03:35,274 --> 00:03:40,994 And there's another one coming in November in New York, which is just launching. 56 00:03:40,994 --> 00:03:42,094 It'll be the first time we've done that. 57 00:03:42,094 --> 00:03:45,670 And then again, we're going to be back in London later in. 58 00:03:45,774 --> 00:03:48,714 sorry, earlier in November as well. 59 00:03:48,714 --> 00:03:50,574 So three pre-legal innovators events. 60 00:03:50,574 --> 00:03:56,774 And basically the idea is, is that legal innovators grew out of the ethos of artificial lawyer. 61 00:03:56,774 --> 00:04:00,094 So it's kind of, it's all about the cutting edge. 62 00:04:00,094 --> 00:04:01,374 It's about exploration. 63 00:04:01,374 --> 00:04:02,714 I'm interested in the unknown. 64 00:04:02,714 --> 00:04:11,574 I'm interested in people who are standing at the edge, people who are taking risks, people who are exploring, people who are doing things that are going to be significant and will 65 00:04:11,574 --> 00:04:13,354 actually change or potentially change. 66 00:04:13,354 --> 00:04:15,726 Maybe, maybe it won't be for 10 years down the line. 67 00:04:15,726 --> 00:04:20,566 But at least people are starting on that journey and they're kind of mindful of it. 68 00:04:20,566 --> 00:04:23,606 I mean, that's fundamentally what artificial oil is all about. 69 00:04:23,606 --> 00:04:30,026 I got onto this train because I thought we're going to see really rapid evolution, right? 70 00:04:30,026 --> 00:04:31,286 Not a revolution. 71 00:04:31,406 --> 00:04:34,526 Perhaps in the long, long term, looking back, we'll say it's a revolution. 72 00:04:34,526 --> 00:04:38,006 The same way that we look back and say, wow, we had an industrial revolution. 73 00:04:38,346 --> 00:04:43,726 I'm sure at the beginning of the industrial revolution, they weren't jumping up and down in, 74 00:04:44,237 --> 00:04:46,818 1780 and say, Hey, this is a revolution guys. 75 00:04:46,818 --> 00:04:47,777 They probably weren't saying that. 76 00:04:47,777 --> 00:04:52,778 It's probably, they weren't even saying evolution because the word evolution hadn't even really been coined at that point. 77 00:04:52,798 --> 00:04:53,438 Right. 78 00:04:53,438 --> 00:04:55,338 Darwin is a bit later. 79 00:04:56,178 --> 00:05:03,958 So you often don't realize how significant the times you're living through actually are, but I think we have to kind of focus on that bit. 80 00:05:03,958 --> 00:05:05,338 That's what I'm interested in. 81 00:05:05,338 --> 00:05:07,678 mean, there's lots of legal tech conferences and they're already good. 82 00:05:07,678 --> 00:05:11,810 They do all different kinds of things, but what I'm interested in is bringing. 83 00:05:11,810 --> 00:05:20,415 the leading companies, the leading thinkers, the leading lawyers, leading legal tech experts and those companies and bring it all together and really get together and have a 84 00:05:20,415 --> 00:05:26,258 high level discussion and share and show, think about what's happening now and think about where we're heading. 85 00:05:26,679 --> 00:05:28,410 And for me, that's it. 86 00:05:28,410 --> 00:05:34,424 mean, everything else is well, you know, like I say, there's a lot of great events out there, but I'm not really interested in the rest of it. 87 00:05:34,424 --> 00:05:38,976 I mean, I didn't start artificial lawyer to basically just be a PR machine. 88 00:05:38,990 --> 00:05:45,230 for a new feature, like Blar company has got a new button that is pink now rather than blue. 89 00:05:45,230 --> 00:05:46,730 I mean, really, who cares? 90 00:05:46,990 --> 00:05:54,410 If it doesn't ultimately systemically change things and it doesn't matter really in the long run, it's just decoration, right? 91 00:05:56,550 --> 00:06:04,510 It's like that Monty Python sketch about people, about waking up in the morning and finding that something that you left on your bedside table has been moved an inch to the 92 00:06:04,510 --> 00:06:05,290 left. 93 00:06:05,290 --> 00:06:07,950 I mean, it just doesn't really matter that much. 94 00:06:08,878 --> 00:06:10,458 That's where I'm focused. 95 00:06:10,458 --> 00:06:19,598 think legal innovators California is exciting because we've got those incredible companies that have come out of Palo Alto and places like that, you know, around, you know, the Bay 96 00:06:19,598 --> 00:06:20,098 area. 97 00:06:20,098 --> 00:06:25,658 you know, we've got the Googles and the Metas and the Ubers and, you know, companies like that. 98 00:06:25,798 --> 00:06:29,378 Hopefully we'll be getting a Y Combinator come along too. 99 00:06:29,378 --> 00:06:31,138 We've got investors coming along. 100 00:06:31,138 --> 00:06:36,158 We've got companies like Legora, Harvey, and a whole bunch of really pioneering companies. 101 00:06:36,158 --> 00:06:38,578 And then we've got people like David Wang. 102 00:06:39,238 --> 00:06:49,158 Uh, Daniel Benneke who had given keynotes and we've got people from like Cooley and all the, you know, Wilson's on the scene, la la la la la. 103 00:06:49,158 --> 00:06:53,858 In short, it's an incredible bunch of people and it's going to have that West coast vibe. 104 00:06:53,858 --> 00:06:54,438 Right. 105 00:06:54,438 --> 00:07:01,458 And then in November we'll be over on the East coast in New York, where it's going to be kind of different, but I think New York is changing. 106 00:07:01,458 --> 00:07:02,418 Things are changing there. 107 00:07:02,418 --> 00:07:05,918 I mean, for a long time, I was, I'll be honest, there's no point lying about it. 108 00:07:05,918 --> 00:07:08,022 I was a bit despondent about New York. 109 00:07:08,022 --> 00:07:16,795 I would see some of these great firms full of really smart people and like the genuine interest in innovation was pretty low, I thought until fairly recently. 110 00:07:16,795 --> 00:07:18,925 And now people are really doing stuff. 111 00:07:19,226 --> 00:07:22,587 A lot of big firms are doing stuff and it's really heartening. 112 00:07:22,587 --> 00:07:25,928 And you're like, this is a good time to launch legal innovators. 113 00:07:25,928 --> 00:07:33,670 Because legal innovators can only exist in markets where people are really doing stuff with real purpose, right? 114 00:07:33,888 --> 00:07:39,771 It couldn't exist in a market where people just want to talk about the latest KM feature, right? 115 00:07:39,771 --> 00:07:41,962 It's just not gonna, it's not gonna fly. 116 00:07:41,962 --> 00:07:43,112 What are we even gonna talk about? 117 00:07:43,112 --> 00:07:44,062 Right? 118 00:07:44,062 --> 00:07:45,583 There's nothing to talk about. 119 00:07:46,404 --> 00:07:57,248 So that's, that's basically, and I think it kicked off in London, like not just because that's where we're based, but I think some of the leading UK firms for a long time were 120 00:07:57,248 --> 00:08:01,580 ahead of some of the US firms because it's a much smaller market. 121 00:08:01,580 --> 00:08:08,105 And you've got very, you've got a much smaller number of large law firms and those large law firms are really very competitive with each other. 122 00:08:08,105 --> 00:08:09,537 And then also you've got the big four. 123 00:08:09,537 --> 00:08:12,019 Now the big four isn't really stealing a lot of work. 124 00:08:12,019 --> 00:08:19,865 really isn't, despite what you might think, it's not from those law firms, but it really keeps everyone on their toes. 125 00:08:20,466 --> 00:08:22,507 It really, really keeps people on their toes. 126 00:08:22,507 --> 00:08:26,731 And like kind of everyone knows each other, you know, like, you know, like the U S market is vast. 127 00:08:26,731 --> 00:08:30,834 You got New York, you got Chicago, DC. 128 00:08:30,926 --> 00:08:33,728 You've got Florida, you've got Texas, you've got California. 129 00:08:33,728 --> 00:08:43,654 mean, in the UK, like 80 % of the top tier commercial legal market is concentrated literally in the square mile of London. 130 00:08:44,155 --> 00:08:45,866 So it's very intense, very competitive. 131 00:08:45,866 --> 00:08:49,678 And I think that drives a lot of innovation. 132 00:08:49,819 --> 00:08:52,311 So anyway, that's it. 133 00:08:52,311 --> 00:08:52,761 That's it. 134 00:08:52,761 --> 00:08:56,383 That's my two minute blurb. 135 00:08:56,383 --> 00:09:00,482 mean, I think if people are interested in that kind of energy, that kind of vibe, 136 00:09:00,482 --> 00:09:02,773 then come along to Legal Innovators. 137 00:09:02,825 --> 00:09:05,912 And then who is your, this goes beyond law firms. 138 00:09:05,912 --> 00:09:13,347 This is inside council um and you've got investors, like what, any other contingents? 139 00:09:13,614 --> 00:09:22,294 Yeah, mean, academics, mean, we did, we, every now and we've, for example, we've got Megan Ma, you know, the well-known, you know, legal tech expert from Stanford. 140 00:09:22,294 --> 00:09:24,254 She's, she's going to one of our speakers. 141 00:09:24,254 --> 00:09:25,894 It's going to be great to have her there. 142 00:09:25,994 --> 00:09:28,634 We've had other speakers from academia in the past. 143 00:09:28,634 --> 00:09:29,853 We'll have investors there. 144 00:09:29,853 --> 00:09:37,974 So basically we have day one law firms and day two is in-house because even though there is a lot of overlap, there are some distinctive things. 145 00:09:37,974 --> 00:09:40,174 So it's contract management tools. 146 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,741 Okay, do law firms use contract management tools? 147 00:09:42,741 --> 00:09:48,212 Yeah, to some degree, but for in-house legal teams, it's a whole thing in itself, right? 148 00:09:48,212 --> 00:09:49,873 It's a very, very special thing. 149 00:09:49,873 --> 00:09:56,995 Certain tools like e-discovery, aren't that many in-house legal teams that spend a lot of time on e-discovery. 150 00:09:57,255 --> 00:10:04,797 They may be on the fringes of managing those projects, but they're not gonna be, not many in-house legal teams will be running e-discovery themselves. 151 00:10:04,797 --> 00:10:07,078 That would be fairly, it's fairly rare, I would have thought. 152 00:10:07,078 --> 00:10:09,158 ah 153 00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:15,313 &A due diligence, well, there aren't that many in-house teams that run such projects themselves either. 154 00:10:15,313 --> 00:10:17,042 So there is a distinct difference. 155 00:10:17,042 --> 00:10:21,517 And I think, but by bringing everyone together, it's very interesting. 156 00:10:21,517 --> 00:10:24,598 And you'll get a lot of crossover of people and speakers and companies. 157 00:10:24,598 --> 00:10:30,382 And also particularly now with this, what I call the gen AI convergence, right? 158 00:10:30,382 --> 00:10:32,122 Because gen AI is so spreadable. 159 00:10:32,122 --> 00:10:35,854 It's like butter on a hot day, right? 160 00:10:35,854 --> 00:10:37,225 You can spread it over everything. 161 00:10:37,225 --> 00:10:39,166 It's incredibly versatile. 162 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:46,015 that a lot of the companies who are taking part in the events are selling both to the in-house and to the law firms. 163 00:10:46,015 --> 00:10:49,538 You know, in the old days, you basically, it was like pick a side. 164 00:10:49,618 --> 00:10:53,672 You want to sell to law firms or you want to sell in-house and never the twain shall meet, right? 165 00:10:53,672 --> 00:10:59,126 Now people are selling to both simultaneously and, you know, with intent. 166 00:10:59,517 --> 00:11:00,037 Yeah. 167 00:11:00,037 --> 00:11:11,407 You mentioned the big four and I actually, I agree with you that, you know, the UK was first with the legal services act that's been around now for, think close to a decade, 168 00:11:11,407 --> 00:11:12,097 maybe longer. 169 00:11:12,097 --> 00:11:19,753 And um it hasn't been a big dial mover in the UK in terms of market share. 170 00:11:19,854 --> 00:11:20,154 do. 171 00:11:20,154 --> 00:11:22,446 And you and I talked a little bit about this the last time. 172 00:11:22,446 --> 00:11:29,161 I do think this we're entering a different era where the capabilities of the big four 173 00:11:29,161 --> 00:11:36,261 and the nature of legal production have now shifted in close alignment. 174 00:11:36,261 --> 00:11:36,501 Right. 175 00:11:36,501 --> 00:11:41,281 So the big four are massive relative to any law firm. 176 00:11:41,281 --> 00:11:52,361 KPMG is the smallest at 40 billion, which is five, five and a half times Kirkland and Ellis, which is an outlier in and of itself, world's biggest law firm by revenue. 177 00:11:52,361 --> 00:11:57,081 And that's the smallest of the big four Deloitte said 85 billion. 178 00:11:57,081 --> 00:11:58,433 So if you add up 179 00:11:58,442 --> 00:11:58,822 Yeah. 180 00:11:58,822 --> 00:12:03,222 If you add up the revenues of the big four, you're at about 220 billion. 181 00:12:03,222 --> 00:12:08,482 If you add up the revenues of the AMLAL 100, you're at about 140 billion. 182 00:12:08,482 --> 00:12:15,002 So in terms of scale, you've got four companies that have significantly more revenue than the top 100 lawyers. 183 00:12:15,002 --> 00:12:22,222 And not that revenue is a differentiator in and of itself, but it's a proxy for resources, right? 184 00:12:22,502 --> 00:12:25,382 KPMG has 275,000 employees. 185 00:12:25,822 --> 00:12:27,542 They have, 186 00:12:27,741 --> 00:12:39,678 They've got a global, call it the ignition center in Denver where they fly, they fly clients in and bring in tax audit and advisory resources to help solve problems in a 187 00:12:39,678 --> 00:12:41,729 creative space and creative ways. 188 00:12:41,729 --> 00:12:44,390 You don't see that from law firms very often. 189 00:12:44,390 --> 00:12:51,114 There are, there actually are a few, uh, Fagry drinker has a ignition center like space. 190 00:12:51,114 --> 00:12:53,655 I forget where it's at, but it's rare. 191 00:12:53,655 --> 00:12:57,077 So I, you know, I really feel like this push, 192 00:12:57,866 --> 00:13:07,559 And we haven't had the ability for non-lawyer ownership in the US until recently, and that's only in two states. 193 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:14,187 So I do feel like the momentum this time could look different than when the Legal Services Act came about. 194 00:13:14,187 --> 00:13:16,239 Do you agree with that or no? 195 00:13:16,542 --> 00:13:25,745 Well, I mean, as I've written countless times in artificial lawyer, it doesn't matter who owns what, you know, or who does what to whom. 196 00:13:25,745 --> 00:13:26,725 It doesn't matter at all. 197 00:13:26,725 --> 00:13:33,307 The only thing that really matters is do you actually change how you work? 198 00:13:33,367 --> 00:13:33,657 Right. 199 00:13:33,657 --> 00:13:35,328 Do you change the means of legal production? 200 00:13:35,328 --> 00:13:36,088 Right. 201 00:13:36,088 --> 00:13:39,769 You know, so like, you know, I own a shoe factory, you own a shoe factory. 202 00:13:39,769 --> 00:13:44,470 My shoe factory is run by robots, or is operated by robots and five staff. 203 00:13:44,482 --> 00:13:49,246 right, and an incredible amount of AI and data management. 204 00:13:49,246 --> 00:13:53,529 I've got the best workflow consultants on the planet helping me. 205 00:13:53,529 --> 00:13:56,971 And you run, you know, the normal way. 206 00:13:58,393 --> 00:14:02,595 And that changes everything, right? 207 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:08,911 I'm a private equity fund and you're a family, you know, multi-generational family business, right? 208 00:14:08,911 --> 00:14:10,842 It doesn't make any difference who owns. 209 00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:13,498 these shoe companies, who cares, right? 210 00:14:13,498 --> 00:14:14,369 Makes no difference. 211 00:14:14,369 --> 00:14:18,872 The only thing that matters is the way they actually produce, right? 212 00:14:18,872 --> 00:14:21,174 How the means of production alters. 213 00:14:21,174 --> 00:14:22,425 And this is the thing that we saw. 214 00:14:22,425 --> 00:14:33,375 I I know I've met, you know, some I actually know pretty well, partner level people at some of the big four who've worked in the legal sector, in the legal division of the big 215 00:14:33,375 --> 00:14:34,206 four. 216 00:14:34,206 --> 00:14:39,784 And they worked pretty much how they did when they were inside the magic circle, which is 217 00:14:39,784 --> 00:14:41,654 the large law firms in the UK. 218 00:14:42,035 --> 00:14:43,555 Nothing really changed. 219 00:14:43,595 --> 00:14:49,497 They were just like a miniature city law firm inside the Big Four. 220 00:14:50,317 --> 00:14:52,418 Does the Big Four have incredible resources? 221 00:14:52,418 --> 00:15:00,680 So could a partner who's in the legal division suddenly ring up someone in the finance group or the tax group and say, hey, my client needs some help with this, this, and this, 222 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:01,680 and this? 223 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,621 Yeah, of course, that helps. 224 00:15:03,621 --> 00:15:07,102 And do the Big Four work pretty good at cross-selling? 225 00:15:07,102 --> 00:15:08,342 They do. 226 00:15:09,102 --> 00:15:18,102 But I think one of the great myths about the Big Four is that they're really technologically advanced or that they're any more technologically advanced than anybody 227 00:15:18,102 --> 00:15:19,502 else and they're not. 228 00:15:20,062 --> 00:15:34,062 There are boutique law firms probably in London who are way more technologically advanced than any of the Big Four because they're totally, totally committed to working in a new 229 00:15:34,062 --> 00:15:34,758 way. 230 00:15:35,124 --> 00:15:35,924 That's interesting. 231 00:15:35,924 --> 00:15:36,394 Yeah. 232 00:15:36,394 --> 00:15:37,825 I actually see it a little differently. 233 00:15:37,825 --> 00:15:43,277 I think the ownership, the ownership model matters. 234 00:15:43,277 --> 00:15:44,348 And here's why. 235 00:15:44,348 --> 00:15:51,901 Uh, first it opens up all new sources of capital and, uh which didn't exist prior. 236 00:15:51,901 --> 00:16:02,144 It also allows, creates scenarios where you can offer stock options to highly sought after executives and they can have an ownership stake in the business. 237 00:16:02,225 --> 00:16:03,535 And when you start having 238 00:16:03,535 --> 00:16:09,206 external capital flow into an industry, it changes how that industry operates. 239 00:16:09,207 --> 00:16:19,009 There will be boards of non-lawyers who hold management accountable in ways that today doesn't happen in the US, right? 240 00:16:19,009 --> 00:16:31,825 The ownership is exclusively lawyers and um it limits the, there's a little bit of um an echo chamber in legal that 241 00:16:31,825 --> 00:16:36,768 I think you're going to get like, get, I get emails from VCs all day long in their pitch. 242 00:16:36,768 --> 00:16:43,225 If they don't have a legal resume, which most don't because VCs weren't very interested in legal till about two years ago. 243 00:16:43,225 --> 00:16:48,725 Uh, but their pitch is we have a whole and the Pete, is the PE playbook too. 244 00:16:48,725 --> 00:16:59,681 We have a whole bullpen full of operators that can help you with HR, finance, operations, sales and marketing, and they will be at your disposal if we are investors in your 245 00:16:59,681 --> 00:17:00,517 company. 246 00:17:00,517 --> 00:17:05,337 And think about those functions and how they operate in law firms today. 247 00:17:05,337 --> 00:17:06,830 It's fairly immature. 248 00:17:06,830 --> 00:17:18,715 There's been several, mean, multiple law firms in the UK that have sold out and several that have listed on the stock market, they have almost all been complete failures. 249 00:17:18,756 --> 00:17:20,896 And some of them have actually gone bust. 250 00:17:20,997 --> 00:17:31,350 Some have just delisted because I think, I'm not poo pooing the whole thing, but I think we're coming at it the wrong way. 251 00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:32,601 I think... 252 00:17:33,674 --> 00:17:44,190 I think trying to get a law firm that's operated as a law firm for a hundred years and its clients, which it's had for decades and decades, that current generation of clients, to 253 00:17:44,190 --> 00:17:53,806 just suddenly switch and start operating as a sort of super powered, you know, sort of law firm on corporate steroids. 254 00:17:53,806 --> 00:17:55,186 I'm not sure if that's ever going to work. 255 00:17:55,186 --> 00:17:58,609 I the UK experience shows it's a complete failure pretty much. 256 00:17:58,609 --> 00:17:59,429 It hasn't worked. 257 00:17:59,429 --> 00:18:01,644 I think coming at it a different way. 258 00:18:01,644 --> 00:18:05,075 This is ironic because I'm going to mention atrium, which actually was also a failure. 259 00:18:05,075 --> 00:18:13,229 It's interesting when people try and reinvent the law of that model, it usually messes up badly, but I think maybe we just need to keep trying the same way that people kept on 260 00:18:13,229 --> 00:18:13,909 trying to fly. 261 00:18:13,909 --> 00:18:18,851 then, you know, ah it kept like flying into the ground. 262 00:18:18,851 --> 00:18:25,864 the, if you started from scratch, I think there is hope. 263 00:18:25,864 --> 00:18:27,765 And this is one of the interesting things. 264 00:18:27,765 --> 00:18:29,826 People say that atrium fails in a lot. 265 00:18:29,826 --> 00:18:32,188 because of the technology, the technology was rubbish, blah, blah. 266 00:18:32,188 --> 00:18:39,514 And lots of people, particularly the more cynical types, laughed at the whole thing, you know, for how dare a non-lawyer try and do this. 267 00:18:39,915 --> 00:18:46,760 The reason why, my theory anyway, the technology at that point in the market cycle was irrelevant anyway. 268 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:53,606 Even law firms that were using tons of technology, the technology was having almost zero impact on the actual ability of them to succeed or not. 269 00:18:53,606 --> 00:18:56,506 Legal tech is still largely irrelevant right now. 270 00:18:56,506 --> 00:18:58,310 ah 271 00:18:58,550 --> 00:19:00,691 At that point, it was almost completely irrelevant. 272 00:19:00,832 --> 00:19:09,748 The reason why Atrium failed is because you got a bunch of lawyers out of large law firms who had very sticky relationships with all the big funds and all the big corporates, 273 00:19:09,748 --> 00:19:10,618 right? 274 00:19:11,539 --> 00:19:18,364 And you suddenly assumed that all the client goodwill was just going to move over to this new business. 275 00:19:18,364 --> 00:19:19,267 That's why it failed. 276 00:19:19,267 --> 00:19:21,116 It's basic human reasons, right? 277 00:19:21,116 --> 00:19:27,576 know, why does one lawyer, why does the in-house lawyer at Sequoia, it's gigantic fun. 278 00:19:27,576 --> 00:19:34,352 billions to invest, go to Wilson and Sonsini or Cooley or Latham and Watkins or Gunderson. 279 00:19:34,352 --> 00:19:34,652 Why? 280 00:19:34,652 --> 00:19:36,173 Because they know these people. 281 00:19:36,173 --> 00:19:38,475 They probably live on the same street, right? 282 00:19:38,475 --> 00:19:39,486 They go to the same parties. 283 00:19:39,486 --> 00:19:40,697 The kids know each other. 284 00:19:40,697 --> 00:19:41,708 They trust each other. 285 00:19:41,708 --> 00:19:42,629 They respect each other. 286 00:19:42,629 --> 00:19:44,821 They went to Stanford together, right? 287 00:19:44,821 --> 00:19:45,782 They see each other's work. 288 00:19:45,782 --> 00:19:49,735 They see that each other's work products every single week, right? 289 00:19:49,735 --> 00:19:50,686 There's a bond there. 290 00:19:50,686 --> 00:19:52,147 They trust each other. 291 00:19:52,568 --> 00:19:55,980 And then some of the more junior people disappear. 292 00:19:55,980 --> 00:20:06,974 walk off to the server law firm is run by a guy who set up a gaming video website, throwing some small amounts of technology, but he's neither gonna change things one way or 293 00:20:06,974 --> 00:20:09,055 the other and go, hey, why hasn't it worked? 294 00:20:09,055 --> 00:20:10,575 Well, of course it didn't work. 295 00:20:10,575 --> 00:20:13,136 Cause you can't rip out all that client goodwill. 296 00:20:13,136 --> 00:20:14,316 It's not as simple as that. 297 00:20:14,316 --> 00:20:19,628 However, that said, I think if they had another bash at it and they were more careful. 298 00:20:20,474 --> 00:20:24,525 And they didn't go through the big sale that tech is going to solve all the problems. 299 00:20:24,525 --> 00:20:32,231 I mean, if they just do really low value stuff like this thing that's happened in the UK that you mentioned earlier, this Garfield thing, whatever it is doing really, really, 300 00:20:32,231 --> 00:20:40,565 really low value letters for small claims court stuff, which frankly you could probably do on check GPT yourself if you wanted to write and get away with it. 301 00:20:41,246 --> 00:20:42,947 Uh, very low legal risk on that. 302 00:20:42,947 --> 00:20:46,108 would have thought, don't quote me. 303 00:20:46,108 --> 00:20:47,269 Please don't. 304 00:20:49,176 --> 00:20:53,427 Please do not write to this website. 305 00:20:53,427 --> 00:21:03,090 But the key point is this, is that could you from scratch build a private equity backed, actually I probably wouldn't do private equity because I'm a little bit dubious about the 306 00:21:03,090 --> 00:21:15,453 intentions of private equity funds, but could you do a VC backed or a angel backed law firm from first principles from scratch with tons of technology? 307 00:21:16,454 --> 00:21:17,514 Yes. 308 00:21:17,940 --> 00:21:20,432 if you hired the right people, right? 309 00:21:20,432 --> 00:21:29,116 If some of the top funds lawyers in California, like really the top people, absolute, people who've got a book of business in the hundreds of millions, right? 310 00:21:29,116 --> 00:21:36,461 know, people who could just come and just their presence would shift the game, right? 311 00:21:36,461 --> 00:21:40,706 So I would start off with, say, okay, so you've got this corporate tabla rosa, right? 312 00:21:40,706 --> 00:21:43,745 So you bring in your AI, la la la la, all that kind of fancy stuff, right? 313 00:21:43,745 --> 00:21:44,805 But you need the people. 314 00:21:44,805 --> 00:21:45,986 And then as you were saying, 315 00:21:45,986 --> 00:21:53,891 you know, Ted, like great points about like, bringing in much, much better HR, much, better management, all different, all these other faculties. 316 00:21:53,972 --> 00:21:59,195 And then could you throw money at it and like make it expand kind of rapidly? 317 00:21:59,235 --> 00:22:01,876 Yeah, but again, it comes down to people doesn't it? 318 00:22:01,876 --> 00:22:09,342 I mean, if we're at the very, very bottom of the market, if we buy for K out, we'd very, very super, super low level, like doing like legal zoom, right? 319 00:22:09,342 --> 00:22:15,276 Like a tiny company in Nebraska needs one employment contract for its one employee. 320 00:22:15,470 --> 00:22:17,671 right, it's a garage, right? 321 00:22:18,933 --> 00:22:20,875 They'll just jump on the legal zoom. 322 00:22:20,875 --> 00:22:25,478 It's low risk, you know, there's no big deal there, but that's not gonna change the game. 323 00:22:25,478 --> 00:22:32,544 If you're gonna start to work with really important clients, it's gonna be the people first and the tech will come after to support it. 324 00:22:32,544 --> 00:22:34,466 And I think that is the stumbling block. 325 00:22:34,466 --> 00:22:36,247 And that is actually, this is the key point. 326 00:22:36,247 --> 00:22:39,129 This is why the big four never made an impact in legal. 327 00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:44,792 Because if the very, very, very, very best deal lawyers, 328 00:22:44,792 --> 00:22:51,566 from Clifford Chan's link later, Slaughter and May, Freshfield, know, creme de la creme walked off en masse and had joined the big four. 329 00:22:51,566 --> 00:22:55,112 That would have changed the world, but they didn't. 330 00:22:55,847 --> 00:22:56,749 Yeah, they didn't. 331 00:22:56,749 --> 00:22:57,560 They haven't yet. 332 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,305 um I agree with you on that. 333 00:23:00,387 --> 00:23:06,338 And I think it was attributed to Gandhi, um but I think it's a myth. 334 00:23:06,757 --> 00:23:07,554 Yeah. 335 00:23:07,554 --> 00:23:10,634 Best private equity lawyer in the world. 336 00:23:10,794 --> 00:23:11,614 Joking. 337 00:23:14,934 --> 00:23:16,134 He was a lawyer. 338 00:23:16,134 --> 00:23:18,721 He was lawyer as we all know. 339 00:23:18,721 --> 00:23:21,272 um that. 340 00:23:21,272 --> 00:23:27,666 I think his quote was, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. 341 00:23:28,447 --> 00:23:32,449 And I think that you're right. 342 00:23:32,449 --> 00:23:34,290 This is a lot like flying. 343 00:23:34,290 --> 00:23:39,823 And now that there's been a new um innovation that 344 00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:44,172 enters into the equation, I think the outcome could be different just like it was for the Wright brothers. 345 00:23:44,172 --> 00:23:49,974 So I do see this as a different era. 346 00:23:49,974 --> 00:24:03,659 um I just think there's going to be the way, if you look at, know some people who do law firm strategy, quite a few actually, and they help lawyers basically create a 347 00:24:03,659 --> 00:24:08,861 differentiation strategy and a marketing communication strategy. 348 00:24:09,415 --> 00:24:21,768 The maturity of law firms relative to other industries is low and there's a lot of, there's a lot of gap between where the current state and what is possible. 349 00:24:21,888 --> 00:24:25,850 And I think that's why we have the Amlal 200 instead of the big four. 350 00:24:25,850 --> 00:24:31,131 It's a ton of boutiques that's driven largely by relationships like you just mentioned. 351 00:24:31,131 --> 00:24:35,382 And, and the brand is the brand matters, right? 352 00:24:35,382 --> 00:24:38,811 Who, who, who's opposing counsel on this matter is going to 353 00:24:38,811 --> 00:24:41,423 influence whether or not I choose to settle. 354 00:24:41,703 --> 00:24:42,623 Right. 355 00:24:43,385 --> 00:24:46,677 And that so that matters in in the future. 356 00:24:46,677 --> 00:24:48,378 And again, this is to your point. 357 00:24:48,378 --> 00:24:53,071 I think what's going to happen is it's going to happen slowly than suddenly. 358 00:24:53,092 --> 00:25:02,178 In other words, I think we're not going to see any major shifts in the next two or three years, but five years, seven years, 10 years. 359 00:25:02,179 --> 00:25:05,597 I feel like it's going to turn on a dime because if 360 00:25:05,597 --> 00:25:12,942 the current trajectory of capabilities continue or even steepen, which is a lot of people are predicting. 361 00:25:14,263 --> 00:25:21,518 it's just going to open up new opportunities where lawyers aren't necessarily the best innovators. 362 00:25:21,518 --> 00:25:29,974 did a post on this where I mapped out the five or no, it's about seven, uh, personality traits of lawyers as defined by Dr. 363 00:25:29,974 --> 00:25:31,836 Larry Richard, who wrote lawyer brain. 364 00:25:31,836 --> 00:25:33,960 And then I, I mapped that against 365 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:40,133 the five traits of an innovator as defined by Mark Andreessen, who knows innovation. 366 00:25:40,563 --> 00:25:43,475 it's about a 40, 40, 50 % match. 367 00:25:43,535 --> 00:25:45,776 So lawyers are risk averse. 368 00:25:45,776 --> 00:25:50,719 They're very past precedent focused, not on the future. 369 00:25:50,719 --> 00:25:53,420 They're not, very resilient. 370 00:25:53,420 --> 00:25:56,842 Um, they're very happy with the status quo. 371 00:25:56,842 --> 00:26:00,164 When you look at innovators, they're on the opposite ends of those spectrums. 372 00:26:00,164 --> 00:26:02,589 So combining lawyers and in 373 00:26:02,589 --> 00:26:06,004 I'm not saying the lawyer perspective isn't important. 374 00:26:06,004 --> 00:26:11,382 It's necessary, but not sufficient in the innovation equation, in my opinion. 375 00:26:11,382 --> 00:26:13,302 I wouldn't, be honest, I don't really agree. 376 00:26:13,302 --> 00:26:26,685 I think the best lawyers are actually into risk and actually a really, really good at innovation, but they're innovating through their contracts and through litigation 377 00:26:26,685 --> 00:26:27,947 strategies. 378 00:26:28,007 --> 00:26:34,528 You know, there's right now, there's a bunch of people sitting in a, in an office in New York somewhere going, right. 379 00:26:34,729 --> 00:26:37,389 You know, has this ever been tried before? 380 00:26:37,389 --> 00:26:39,390 And like looks around the room. 381 00:26:39,390 --> 00:26:39,842 Nope. 382 00:26:39,842 --> 00:26:41,142 No one's ever done this before. 383 00:26:41,142 --> 00:26:41,693 let's do it. 384 00:26:41,693 --> 00:26:42,163 Let's do it. 385 00:26:42,163 --> 00:26:45,824 Let's do it. 386 00:26:45,824 --> 00:26:51,265 these are the people, know, whoever, know, creating the poison pill, right? 387 00:26:51,265 --> 00:26:53,106 Wachtell Lipton, right? 388 00:26:53,566 --> 00:26:54,762 That was a risk. 389 00:26:54,762 --> 00:26:55,466 It was a huge risk. 390 00:26:55,466 --> 00:26:56,136 It was an innovation. 391 00:26:56,136 --> 00:27:00,268 If that had gone wrong, it would have really damaged the firm's reputation. 392 00:27:00,268 --> 00:27:02,969 If a whole thing had just like collapsed and backfired, right? 393 00:27:02,969 --> 00:27:04,621 But it didn't, it was genius. 394 00:27:04,621 --> 00:27:07,634 Are the best lawyers on the Innovation Council? 395 00:27:07,634 --> 00:27:09,826 Are the best lawyers sitting in the CINO seat? 396 00:27:09,826 --> 00:27:11,187 I'd argue no. 397 00:27:12,288 --> 00:27:13,282 Exactly. 398 00:27:13,282 --> 00:27:21,302 you're brilliant, if you're a really super respected lawyer, he's very creative, very brave, and you've got the mind to back it up. 399 00:27:21,302 --> 00:27:23,282 You don't have to worry about it. 400 00:27:23,282 --> 00:27:26,042 If you're making like five million a year, just keep going. 401 00:27:28,282 --> 00:27:36,482 This is, think, in a funny way, it's actually where you go back to then actually agreeing, which is it's the other 95 % of the legal world that actually does have to worry because 402 00:27:36,482 --> 00:27:39,566 the other 95 % world is not Marty Lipton, right? 403 00:27:39,566 --> 00:27:49,454 You know, there's only so many people like that in any, in any sector, whether it's engineering or physics or, you know, chemistry, right, any profession. 404 00:27:50,435 --> 00:27:51,756 It's everybody else. 405 00:27:51,756 --> 00:28:01,774 And I think, and also some of those large firms, you know, there's a whole bunch of partners who, as you say, are risk averse who are just churning, you know, that thing, 406 00:28:01,774 --> 00:28:04,726 just, you know, the, the organ grinder thing. 407 00:28:04,847 --> 00:28:08,590 And I think that's, that is, I think where it is interesting. 408 00:28:08,590 --> 00:28:17,970 Because if AI does get to the point, and this is what I keep pushing for, know, like for example, I did a piece the other day, so everyone's always moaning and groaning, and, oh, 409 00:28:17,970 --> 00:28:19,530 know, this AI is not accurate enough. 410 00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:21,510 So I all right, I'm call your bluff. 411 00:28:21,730 --> 00:28:24,450 What happens if it really is perfect? 412 00:28:24,550 --> 00:28:25,970 Now what are you gonna do? 413 00:28:25,970 --> 00:28:27,930 You know, be careful what you wish for. 414 00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:32,770 Because, right, so you've got all these partners going, oh, this AI is rubbish, you know? 415 00:28:32,770 --> 00:28:37,030 And you go, now it is 99.9 % accurate. 416 00:28:37,030 --> 00:28:37,698 It is. 417 00:28:37,698 --> 00:28:42,242 better than you on a good day for these routine tasks. 418 00:28:42,482 --> 00:28:51,070 It's probably not gonna create a new poison pill, but it will do that document management, that document review project in five minutes. 419 00:28:51,070 --> 00:28:56,405 And it will be better than your best senior associate by a long, in fact, it's so good. 420 00:28:56,405 --> 00:28:57,667 You probably don't even need to check it. 421 00:28:57,667 --> 00:29:04,392 In fact, if you do check it, you're probably almost breaking bar rules because you're actually adding additional time that's unnecessary. 422 00:29:04,690 --> 00:29:05,204 Yeah. 423 00:29:05,204 --> 00:29:08,378 I were a long, long, long way from that long. 424 00:29:08,699 --> 00:29:19,911 But if we did get to that point, then all these firms who are just turning the organ, they're in trouble. 425 00:29:19,911 --> 00:29:20,421 I agree. 426 00:29:20,421 --> 00:29:22,703 I see a clear bifurcation in the market. 427 00:29:22,703 --> 00:29:30,169 Now I see firms that are going all in and staffing with, you know, rock star innovation teams. 428 00:29:30,169 --> 00:29:34,332 Sometimes they're buying companies like Cleary did with Springbok. 429 00:29:34,332 --> 00:29:36,563 I see those all in firms. 430 00:29:36,563 --> 00:29:46,854 And then I see the ones that are playing it safe and maybe piloting, you know, a 25 user co-pilot POC or maybe they're POCing Harvey or co-counsel. 431 00:29:46,854 --> 00:29:49,757 It is a very clear bifurcation from where I sit. 432 00:29:49,757 --> 00:29:59,864 And I think the ones who are, who are taking risks and thinking about this in R and D terms, instead of just purely ROI are going to come out the other side as winners. 433 00:29:59,864 --> 00:30:01,124 Well, this an interesting one, isn't it? 434 00:30:01,124 --> 00:30:06,740 Because I think there's going to be the elite firms who just ignore tech and probably will be fine. 435 00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:12,024 There'll be the elite firms and you mentioned one already who actually does bring in the tech. 436 00:30:12,024 --> 00:30:21,802 And then amongst everyone else, that's going to break down as well because, and I guess with elite firms, we can include small firms as well, boutiques who are really top of 437 00:30:21,802 --> 00:30:24,645 their game because you don't necessarily have to have thousand lawyers to be elite. 438 00:30:24,645 --> 00:30:27,357 You could be 10 lawyers, but the best in your niche as well. 439 00:30:27,357 --> 00:30:29,166 But broadly, 440 00:30:29,166 --> 00:30:30,346 And then that's going to split. 441 00:30:30,346 --> 00:30:34,046 So there'll be the firm to actually look in the mirror and accept and go, you know what? 442 00:30:34,046 --> 00:30:39,406 70 % of our work in 10 years, it's going to be AI-able, right? 443 00:30:39,406 --> 00:30:42,466 We need to get on top of this guys and let's stop pretending. 444 00:30:42,506 --> 00:30:43,946 And then they'll be fine. 445 00:30:43,946 --> 00:30:45,106 They'll probably need to merge. 446 00:30:45,106 --> 00:30:50,926 They'll need to probably restructure internally and merge and merge and merge and get more volume because they're going to become bigger engines. 447 00:30:50,926 --> 00:30:56,674 And then you're going to get the other ones who are just going to stick their head in the sand and just wait and wait it out. 448 00:30:56,674 --> 00:30:58,214 and they'll keep ringing up their clients. 449 00:30:58,214 --> 00:31:09,027 mean, it's like, then you get the innovators dilemma, you know, which is such a great book about, you know, the innovators of yesterday are certain that their clients love them and 450 00:31:09,027 --> 00:31:11,496 they keep ringing up their clients and their clients do love them. 451 00:31:11,496 --> 00:31:14,559 They can ring them up in the morning and go, you're not going to use that other firm, you? 452 00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:15,659 No, no, no, no, no, we love you. 453 00:31:15,659 --> 00:31:16,069 We love you. 454 00:31:16,069 --> 00:31:21,941 And then one day they don't answer the phone and you're like, they're playing golf. 455 00:31:22,261 --> 00:31:25,142 And then you realize they're not playing golf and they don't love you anymore. 456 00:31:25,142 --> 00:31:26,122 They're gone. 457 00:31:26,284 --> 00:31:29,083 And it's too late because you've been sitting on your hands for 10 years. 458 00:31:29,083 --> 00:31:30,274 Exactly. 459 00:31:30,596 --> 00:31:32,996 And I know uh you got to go. 460 00:31:32,996 --> 00:31:40,206 So we're going to cut this episode just a little bit short, but I want to give you an opportunity to tell people how do they find out more about the Legal Innovators 461 00:31:40,206 --> 00:31:41,277 Conference. 462 00:31:41,326 --> 00:31:48,006 Cool, well, okay, go to artificiallawyer.com if you wish, or go directly to the website. 463 00:31:48,006 --> 00:31:54,086 The first event is in June in California, San Francisco, Legal Innovators California. 464 00:31:54,086 --> 00:32:00,086 If you just go onto Google, type in Legal Innovators California, June, you will find the event. 465 00:32:00,086 --> 00:32:02,566 There's still some tickets available and it's on the 11th and 12th. 466 00:32:02,566 --> 00:32:04,126 And yeah, we'd love to see you there. 467 00:32:04,126 --> 00:32:05,326 And thanks, Ted. 468 00:32:05,326 --> 00:32:05,870 Thank you. 469 00:32:05,870 --> 00:32:06,310 good. 470 00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:08,071 It's a good conversation as always. 471 00:32:08,071 --> 00:32:18,617 So um maybe I haven't looked at the conference that closely, but we're uh we're going to take a look and see if it's a fit for what we do as well. 472 00:32:18,688 --> 00:32:20,389 Yeah, I mean, come along, come along. 473 00:32:20,389 --> 00:32:22,839 guess, are we still recording? 474 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,921 Okay, so I'm not going to talk to Ted about the opportunities. 475 00:32:27,921 --> 00:32:35,083 uh But yeah, if you want, if you guys would like to get involved, yeah, we'd love to have you. 476 00:32:35,083 --> 00:32:40,941 We'd obviously, I'll redirect you to the people in charge of that side of things. 477 00:32:40,941 --> 00:32:45,326 yeah, actually, we have people knowing that I don't actually run the event myself. 478 00:32:45,326 --> 00:32:46,038 ah 479 00:32:46,038 --> 00:32:51,508 I'm chairing the event and I've inspired the event and I help in terms of the content and so forth. 480 00:32:51,508 --> 00:32:57,237 But the actual organization of which is by the Cosmonauts conference company. 481 00:32:59,837 --> 00:33:00,718 Okay. 482 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:01,803 Well, good stuff. 483 00:33:01,803 --> 00:33:02,986 Hopefully we'll see you there. 484 00:33:02,986 --> 00:33:08,158 If not, I'm sure we'll see you at a legal conference real soon. 485 00:33:08,204 --> 00:33:13,219 Yeah, although I won't, I won't be going to any more conferences this year. 486 00:33:13,219 --> 00:33:21,929 Aside from Legal Innovators, I won't be going to any more conferences this year, ah except probably Legal Geek at the, probably in the autumn. 487 00:33:21,929 --> 00:33:27,584 I won't be coming over to the US except for Legal Innovators California and the new. 488 00:33:28,755 --> 00:33:30,226 Well, we will be there. 489 00:33:30,226 --> 00:33:33,898 We're, we're, we're stepping our, our dipping our toe into the UK market. 490 00:33:33,898 --> 00:33:36,129 And that's, we're doing three conferences over there. 491 00:33:36,129 --> 00:33:40,252 One next week, which is the PWC TLTF. 492 00:33:40,992 --> 00:33:42,273 it's a small event. 493 00:33:42,273 --> 00:33:47,906 Um, we're doing the big hand conference in London in June, and then we're doing legal geek. 494 00:33:47,906 --> 00:33:51,598 So, um, we'll definitely see it legal geek. 495 00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:53,920 Uh, all right. 496 00:33:55,141 --> 00:33:55,941 Yeah. 497 00:33:56,150 --> 00:33:59,192 We'll chat about it as soon as we stop recording here. 498 00:33:59,473 --> 00:33:59,903 All right. 499 00:33:59,903 --> 00:34:01,053 Thanks, Richard. 500 00:34:01,674 --> 00:34:02,054 All right. 501 00:34:02,054 --> 00:34:02,975 Take care. 502 00:34:03,766 --> 00:34:04,400 All right. 00:00:05,989 Richard Trommans, how are you this afternoon your time? 2 00:00:06,164 --> 00:00:06,968 Yeah, very good. 3 00:00:06,968 --> 00:00:07,229 Thanks. 4 00:00:07,229 --> 00:00:08,221 Very good. 5 00:00:09,590 --> 00:00:10,302 Yeah, very good. 6 00:00:10,302 --> 00:00:11,092 How are you? 7 00:00:11,092 --> 00:00:11,824 doing great. 8 00:00:11,824 --> 00:00:13,027 I'm doing great. 9 00:00:13,027 --> 00:00:14,540 So I think everybody knows you. 10 00:00:14,540 --> 00:00:20,282 You've been on the podcast before, but just 30 second intro for those that haven't are familiar. 11 00:00:20,454 --> 00:00:20,674 sure. 12 00:00:20,674 --> 00:00:24,194 So I spent 25 years or more working in the legal market. 13 00:00:24,194 --> 00:00:32,074 I've worked with journalists, market analysts, management consultants, strategy consultant, innovation consultant. 14 00:00:32,334 --> 00:00:39,734 I started writing about AI in 2015 and I started artificial lawyer in 2016 during that first wave. 15 00:00:40,374 --> 00:00:46,234 And I also chair and have helped create several conferences called Legal Innovators. 16 00:00:46,294 --> 00:00:47,745 And yeah. 17 00:00:47,745 --> 00:00:50,098 It's a good time to be in legal tech. 18 00:00:50,098 --> 00:00:51,299 It is, it is. 19 00:00:51,299 --> 00:00:59,872 It's, uh I think there's a lot of fear, uncertainty and doubt, but I'm having a blast, you know, covering the space and our time. 20 00:00:59,872 --> 00:01:06,965 We started the podcast shortly after ChatGPT came out, 3.5, and our timing was good. 21 00:01:06,965 --> 00:01:08,906 They wasn't related. 22 00:01:08,906 --> 00:01:19,580 We were, so InfoDash is an intranet extranet company and we focus exclusively on law firms and we sell primarily to KM and innovation teams and 23 00:01:19,678 --> 00:01:30,311 When, when innovation first came out in legal, which was about 10 years ago, I did a study, uh, looked at the Ilta roster in 2014. 24 00:01:30,311 --> 00:01:34,286 were 16 people on the Ilta roster that had innovation in their title. 25 00:01:34,286 --> 00:01:37,047 Today there's close to 400. 26 00:01:37,548 --> 00:01:42,401 in the beginning of the opinion that innovation was KM rebranded. 27 00:01:42,401 --> 00:01:48,734 Uh, but just over the last few years, I'm seeing a shift and, uh, there is real. 28 00:01:49,020 --> 00:01:53,051 efforts and resources being put towards innovation. 29 00:01:53,552 --> 00:02:11,258 had Michelle DeFestano uh from University of Miami on a few episodes ago, and she wrote a paper in 2019 about uh the CINO role, Chief Innovation Officer, and the paper was titled, 30 00:02:11,258 --> 00:02:16,801 uh The CINO Role, Roles, Holes, and Goals. 31 00:02:16,801 --> 00:02:18,281 And she interviewed 32 00:02:18,867 --> 00:02:21,658 probably every Cino there was at the time. 33 00:02:21,839 --> 00:02:26,301 And, uh, it, did a really good job documenting like what their priorities are. 34 00:02:26,301 --> 00:02:33,945 And there was a, there was a, admission on the part of Cino's that a lot of it was marketing. 35 00:02:34,045 --> 00:02:35,096 It was focused around. 36 00:02:35,096 --> 00:02:36,726 We want to look innovative. 37 00:02:36,957 --> 00:02:38,528 that is now shifting. 38 00:02:38,528 --> 00:02:42,670 And, so we're well positioned with, yeah. 39 00:02:42,670 --> 00:02:45,872 I mean, I'm seeing, I'm seeing real, I'm seeing real. 40 00:02:45,872 --> 00:02:46,792 Yeah. 41 00:02:48,073 --> 00:02:48,665 Yeah. 42 00:02:48,665 --> 00:02:56,662 always it's always good to be a bit cynical uh about all all press releases, frankly. 43 00:02:56,662 --> 00:02:59,114 But but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 44 00:02:59,114 --> 00:02:59,615 No, it is. 45 00:02:59,615 --> 00:03:00,095 It is. 46 00:03:00,095 --> 00:03:03,463 think there's more happening for real now than for a long time. 47 00:03:03,463 --> 00:03:09,700 Yeah, and your timing with Legal Innovators, the conference is outstanding as well. 48 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:15,375 Why don't you tell us a little bit about the conference, what its focus is, and then we'll dive in a little deeper. 49 00:03:15,534 --> 00:03:16,834 Yeah, thanks, Ted. 50 00:03:16,834 --> 00:03:19,254 It's funny you should ask that question. 51 00:03:21,734 --> 00:03:22,894 But you know, thank you. 52 00:03:22,894 --> 00:03:23,834 I appreciate it. 53 00:03:23,834 --> 00:03:30,674 So basically, so Legal Innovators is a series of events that we do in California. 54 00:03:30,674 --> 00:03:34,134 There's one coming up 11th 12th of June in San Francisco. 55 00:03:35,274 --> 00:03:40,994 And there's another one coming in November in New York, which is just launching. 56 00:03:40,994 --> 00:03:42,094 It'll be the first time we've done that. 57 00:03:42,094 --> 00:03:45,670 And then again, we're going to be back in London later in. 58 00:03:45,774 --> 00:03:48,714 sorry, earlier in November as well. 59 00:03:48,714 --> 00:03:50,574 So three pre-legal innovators events. 60 00:03:50,574 --> 00:03:56,774 And basically the idea is, is that legal innovators grew out of the ethos of artificial lawyer. 61 00:03:56,774 --> 00:04:00,094 So it's kind of, it's all about the cutting edge. 62 00:04:00,094 --> 00:04:01,374 It's about exploration. 63 00:04:01,374 --> 00:04:02,714 I'm interested in the unknown. 64 00:04:02,714 --> 00:04:11,574 I'm interested in people who are standing at the edge, people who are taking risks, people who are exploring, people who are doing things that are going to be significant and will 65 00:04:11,574 --> 00:04:13,354 actually change or potentially change. 66 00:04:13,354 --> 00:04:15,726 Maybe, maybe it won't be for 10 years down the line. 67 00:04:15,726 --> 00:04:20,566 But at least people are starting on that journey and they're kind of mindful of it. 68 00:04:20,566 --> 00:04:23,606 I mean, that's fundamentally what artificial oil is all about. 69 00:04:23,606 --> 00:04:30,026 I got onto this train because I thought we're going to see really rapid evolution, right? 70 00:04:30,026 --> 00:04:31,286 Not a revolution. 71 00:04:31,406 --> 00:04:34,526 Perhaps in the long, long term, looking back, we'll say it's a revolution. 72 00:04:34,526 --> 00:04:38,006 The same way that we look back and say, wow, we had an industrial revolution. 73 00:04:38,346 --> 00:04:43,726 I'm sure at the beginning of the industrial revolution, they weren't jumping up and down in, 74 00:04:44,237 --> 00:04:46,818 1780 and say, Hey, this is a revolution guys. 75 00:04:46,818 --> 00:04:47,777 They probably weren't saying that. 76 00:04:47,777 --> 00:04:52,778 It's probably, they weren't even saying evolution because the word evolution hadn't even really been coined at that point. 77 00:04:52,798 --> 00:04:53,438 Right. 78 00:04:53,438 --> 00:04:55,338 Darwin is a bit later. 79 00:04:56,178 --> 00:05:03,958 So you often don't realize how significant the times you're living through actually are, but I think we have to kind of focus on that bit. 80 00:05:03,958 --> 00:05:05,338 That's what I'm interested in. 81 00:05:05,338 --> 00:05:07,678 mean, there's lots of legal tech conferences and they're already good. 82 00:05:07,678 --> 00:05:11,810 They do all different kinds of things, but what I'm interested in is bringing. 83 00:05:11,810 --> 00:05:20,415 the leading companies, the leading thinkers, the leading lawyers, leading legal tech experts and those companies and bring it all together and really get together and have a 84 00:05:20,415 --> 00:05:26,258 high level discussion and share and show, think about what's happening now and think about where we're heading. 85 00:05:26,679 --> 00:05:28,410 And for me, that's it. 86 00:05:28,410 --> 00:05:34,424 mean, everything else is well, you know, like I say, there's a lot of great events out there, but I'm not really interested in the rest of it. 87 00:05:34,424 --> 00:05:38,976 I mean, I didn't start artificial lawyer to basically just be a PR machine. 88 00:05:38,990 --> 00:05:45,230 for a new feature, like Blar company has got a new button that is pink now rather than blue. 89 00:05:45,230 --> 00:05:46,730 I mean, really, who cares? 90 00:05:46,990 --> 00:05:54,410 If it doesn't ultimately systemically change things and it doesn't matter really in the long run, it's just decoration, right? 91 00:05:56,550 --> 00:06:04,510 It's like that Monty Python sketch about people, about waking up in the morning and finding that something that you left on your bedside table has been moved an inch to the 92 00:06:04,510 --> 00:06:05,290 left. 93 00:06:05,290 --> 00:06:07,950 I mean, it just doesn't really matter that much. 94 00:06:08,878 --> 00:06:10,458 That's where I'm focused. 95 00:06:10,458 --> 00:06:19,598 think legal innovators California is exciting because we've got those incredible companies that have come out of Palo Alto and places like that, you know, around, you know, the Bay 96 00:06:19,598 --> 00:06:20,098 area. 97 00:06:20,098 --> 00:06:25,658 you know, we've got the Googles and the Metas and the Ubers and, you know, companies like that. 98 00:06:25,798 --> 00:06:29,378 Hopefully we'll be getting a Y Combinator come along too. 99 00:06:29,378 --> 00:06:31,138 We've got investors coming along. 100 00:06:31,138 --> 00:06:36,158 We've got companies like Legora, Harvey, and a whole bunch of really pioneering companies. 101 00:06:36,158 --> 00:06:38,578 And then we've got people like David Wang. 102 00:06:39,238 --> 00:06:49,158 Uh, Daniel Benneke who had given keynotes and we've got people from like Cooley and all the, you know, Wilson's on the scene, la la la la la. 103 00:06:49,158 --> 00:06:53,858 In short, it's an incredible bunch of people and it's going to have that West coast vibe. 104 00:06:53,858 --> 00:06:54,438 Right. 105 00:06:54,438 --> 00:07:01,458 And then in November we'll be over on the East coast in New York, where it's going to be kind of different, but I think New York is changing. 106 00:07:01,458 --> 00:07:02,418 Things are changing there. 107 00:07:02,418 --> 00:07:05,918 I mean, for a long time, I was, I'll be honest, there's no point lying about it. 108 00:07:05,918 --> 00:07:08,022 I was a bit despondent about New York. 109 00:07:08,022 --> 00:07:16,795 I would see some of these great firms full of really smart people and like the genuine interest in innovation was pretty low, I thought until fairly recently. 110 00:07:16,795 --> 00:07:18,925 And now people are really doing stuff. 111 00:07:19,226 --> 00:07:22,587 A lot of big firms are doing stuff and it's really heartening. 112 00:07:22,587 --> 00:07:25,928 And you're like, this is a good time to launch legal innovators. 113 00:07:25,928 --> 00:07:33,670 Because legal innovators can only exist in markets where people are really doing stuff with real purpose, right? 114 00:07:33,888 --> 00:07:39,771 It couldn't exist in a market where people just want to talk about the latest KM feature, right? 115 00:07:39,771 --> 00:07:41,962 It's just not gonna, it's not gonna fly. 116 00:07:41,962 --> 00:07:43,112 What are we even gonna talk about? 117 00:07:43,112 --> 00:07:44,062 Right? 118 00:07:44,062 --> 00:07:45,583 There's nothing to talk about. 119 00:07:46,404 --> 00:07:57,248 So that's, that's basically, and I think it kicked off in London, like not just because that's where we're based, but I think some of the leading UK firms for a long time were 120 00:07:57,248 --> 00:08:01,580 ahead of some of the US firms because it's a much smaller market. 121 00:08:01,580 --> 00:08:08,105 And you've got very, you've got a much smaller number of large law firms and those large law firms are really very competitive with each other. 122 00:08:08,105 --> 00:08:09,537 And then also you've got the big four. 123 00:08:09,537 --> 00:08:12,019 Now the big four isn't really stealing a lot of work. 124 00:08:12,019 --> 00:08:19,865 really isn't, despite what you might think, it's not from those law firms, but it really keeps everyone on their toes. 125 00:08:20,466 --> 00:08:22,507 It really, really keeps people on their toes. 126 00:08:22,507 --> 00:08:26,731 And like kind of everyone knows each other, you know, like, you know, like the U S market is vast. 127 00:08:26,731 --> 00:08:30,834 You got New York, you got Chicago, DC. 128 00:08:30,926 --> 00:08:33,728 You've got Florida, you've got Texas, you've got California. 129 00:08:33,728 --> 00:08:43,654 mean, in the UK, like 80 % of the top tier commercial legal market is concentrated literally in the square mile of London. 130 00:08:44,155 --> 00:08:45,866 So it's very intense, very competitive. 131 00:08:45,866 --> 00:08:49,678 And I think that drives a lot of innovation. 132 00:08:49,819 --> 00:08:52,311 So anyway, that's it. 133 00:08:52,311 --> 00:08:52,761 That's it. 134 00:08:52,761 --> 00:08:56,383 That's my two minute blurb. 135 00:08:56,383 --> 00:09:00,482 mean, I think if people are interested in that kind of energy, that kind of vibe, 136 00:09:00,482 --> 00:09:02,773 then come along to Legal Innovators. 137 00:09:02,825 --> 00:09:05,912 And then who is your, this goes beyond law firms. 138 00:09:05,912 --> 00:09:13,347 This is inside council um and you've got investors, like what, any other contingents? 139 00:09:13,614 --> 00:09:22,294 Yeah, mean, academics, mean, we did, we, every now and we've, for example, we've got Megan Ma, you know, the well-known, you know, legal tech expert from Stanford. 140 00:09:22,294 --> 00:09:24,254 She's, she's going to one of our speakers. 141 00:09:24,254 --> 00:09:25,894 It's going to be great to have her there. 142 00:09:25,994 --> 00:09:28,634 We've had other speakers from academia in the past. 143 00:09:28,634 --> 00:09:29,853 We'll have investors there. 144 00:09:29,853 --> 00:09:37,974 So basically we have day one law firms and day two is in-house because even though there is a lot of overlap, there are some distinctive things. 145 00:09:37,974 --> 00:09:40,174 So it's contract management tools. 146 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,741 Okay, do law firms use contract management tools? 147 00:09:42,741 --> 00:09:48,212 Yeah, to some degree, but for in-house legal teams, it's a whole thing in itself, right? 148 00:09:48,212 --> 00:09:49,873 It's a very, very special thing. 149 00:09:49,873 --> 00:09:56,995 Certain tools like e-discovery, aren't that many in-house legal teams that spend a lot of time on e-discovery. 150 00:09:57,255 --> 00:10:04,797 They may be on the fringes of managing those projects, but they're not gonna be, not many in-house legal teams will be running e-discovery themselves. 151 00:10:04,797 --> 00:10:07,078 That would be fairly, it's fairly rare, I would have thought. 152 00:10:07,078 --> 00:10:09,158 ah 153 00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:15,313 &A due diligence, well, there aren't that many in-house teams that run such projects themselves either. 154 00:10:15,313 --> 00:10:17,042 So there is a distinct difference. 155 00:10:17,042 --> 00:10:21,517 And I think, but by bringing everyone together, it's very interesting. 156 00:10:21,517 --> 00:10:24,598 And you'll get a lot of crossover of people and speakers and companies. 157 00:10:24,598 --> 00:10:30,382 And also particularly now with this, what I call the gen AI convergence, right? 158 00:10:30,382 --> 00:10:32,122 Because gen AI is so spreadable. 159 00:10:32,122 --> 00:10:35,854 It's like butter on a hot day, right? 160 00:10:35,854 --> 00:10:37,225 You can spread it over everything. 161 00:10:37,225 --> 00:10:39,166 It's incredibly versatile. 162 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:46,015 that a lot of the companies who are taking part in the events are selling both to the in-house and to the law firms. 163 00:10:46,015 --> 00:10:49,538 You know, in the old days, you basically, it was like pick a side. 164 00:10:49,618 --> 00:10:53,672 You want to sell to law firms or you want to sell in-house and never the twain shall meet, right? 165 00:10:53,672 --> 00:10:59,126 Now people are selling to both simultaneously and, you know, with intent. 166 00:10:59,517 --> 00:11:00,037 Yeah. 167 00:11:00,037 --> 00:11:11,407 You mentioned the big four and I actually, I agree with you that, you know, the UK was first with the legal services act that's been around now for, think close to a decade, 168 00:11:11,407 --> 00:11:12,097 maybe longer. 169 00:11:12,097 --> 00:11:19,753 And um it hasn't been a big dial mover in the UK in terms of market share. 170 00:11:19,854 --> 00:11:20,154 do. 171 00:11:20,154 --> 00:11:22,446 And you and I talked a little bit about this the last time. 172 00:11:22,446 --> 00:11:29,161 I do think this we're entering a different era where the capabilities of the big four 173 00:11:29,161 --> 00:11:36,261 and the nature of legal production have now shifted in close alignment. 174 00:11:36,261 --> 00:11:36,501 Right. 175 00:11:36,501 --> 00:11:41,281 So the big four are massive relative to any law firm. 176 00:11:41,281 --> 00:11:52,361 KPMG is the smallest at 40 billion, which is five, five and a half times Kirkland and Ellis, which is an outlier in and of itself, world's biggest law firm by revenue. 177 00:11:52,361 --> 00:11:57,081 And that's the smallest of the big four Deloitte said 85 billion. 178 00:11:57,081 --> 00:11:58,433 So if you add up 179 00:11:58,442 --> 00:11:58,822 Yeah. 180 00:11:58,822 --> 00:12:03,222 If you add up the revenues of the big four, you're at about 220 billion. 181 00:12:03,222 --> 00:12:08,482 If you add up the revenues of the AMLAL 100, you're at about 140 billion. 182 00:12:08,482 --> 00:12:15,002 So in terms of scale, you've got four companies that have significantly more revenue than the top 100 lawyers. 183 00:12:15,002 --> 00:12:22,222 And not that revenue is a differentiator in and of itself, but it's a proxy for resources, right? 184 00:12:22,502 --> 00:12:25,382 KPMG has 275,000 employees. 185 00:12:25,822 --> 00:12:27,542 They have, 186 00:12:27,741 --> 00:12:39,678 They've got a global, call it the ignition center in Denver where they fly, they fly clients in and bring in tax audit and advisory resources to help solve problems in a 187 00:12:39,678 --> 00:12:41,729 creative space and creative ways. 188 00:12:41,729 --> 00:12:44,390 You don't see that from law firms very often. 189 00:12:44,390 --> 00:12:51,114 There are, there actually are a few, uh, Fagry drinker has a ignition center like space. 190 00:12:51,114 --> 00:12:53,655 I forget where it's at, but it's rare. 191 00:12:53,655 --> 00:12:57,077 So I, you know, I really feel like this push, 192 00:12:57,866 --> 00:13:07,559 And we haven't had the ability for non-lawyer ownership in the US until recently, and that's only in two states. 193 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:14,187 So I do feel like the momentum this time could look different than when the Legal Services Act came about. 194 00:13:14,187 --> 00:13:16,239 Do you agree with that or no? 195 00:13:16,542 --> 00:13:25,745 Well, I mean, as I've written countless times in artificial lawyer, it doesn't matter who owns what, you know, or who does what to whom. 196 00:13:25,745 --> 00:13:26,725 It doesn't matter at all. 197 00:13:26,725 --> 00:13:33,307 The only thing that really matters is do you actually change how you work? 198 00:13:33,367 --> 00:13:33,657 Right. 199 00:13:33,657 --> 00:13:35,328 Do you change the means of legal production? 200 00:13:35,328 --> 00:13:36,088 Right. 201 00:13:36,088 --> 00:13:39,769 You know, so like, you know, I own a shoe factory, you own a shoe factory. 202 00:13:39,769 --> 00:13:44,470 My shoe factory is run by robots, or is operated by robots and five staff. 203 00:13:44,482 --> 00:13:49,246 right, and an incredible amount of AI and data management. 204 00:13:49,246 --> 00:13:53,529 I've got the best workflow consultants on the planet helping me. 205 00:13:53,529 --> 00:13:56,971 And you run, you know, the normal way. 206 00:13:58,393 --> 00:14:02,595 And that changes everything, right? 207 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:08,911 I'm a private equity fund and you're a family, you know, multi-generational family business, right? 208 00:14:08,911 --> 00:14:10,842 It doesn't make any difference who owns. 209 00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:13,498 these shoe companies, who cares, right? 210 00:14:13,498 --> 00:14:14,369 Makes no difference. 211 00:14:14,369 --> 00:14:18,872 The only thing that matters is the way they actually produce, right? 212 00:14:18,872 --> 00:14:21,174 How the means of production alters. 213 00:14:21,174 --> 00:14:22,425 And this is the thing that we saw. 214 00:14:22,425 --> 00:14:33,375 I I know I've met, you know, some I actually know pretty well, partner level people at some of the big four who've worked in the legal sector, in the legal division of the big 215 00:14:33,375 --> 00:14:34,206 four. 216 00:14:34,206 --> 00:14:39,784 And they worked pretty much how they did when they were inside the magic circle, which is 217 00:14:39,784 --> 00:14:41,654 the large law firms in the UK. 218 00:14:42,035 --> 00:14:43,555 Nothing really changed. 219 00:14:43,595 --> 00:14:49,497 They were just like a miniature city law firm inside the Big Four. 220 00:14:50,317 --> 00:14:52,418 Does the Big Four have incredible resources? 221 00:14:52,418 --> 00:15:00,680 So could a partner who's in the legal division suddenly ring up someone in the finance group or the tax group and say, hey, my client needs some help with this, this, and this, 222 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:01,680 and this? 223 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,621 Yeah, of course, that helps. 224 00:15:03,621 --> 00:15:07,102 And do the Big Four work pretty good at cross-selling? 225 00:15:07,102 --> 00:15:08,342 They do. 226 00:15:09,102 --> 00:15:18,102 But I think one of the great myths about the Big Four is that they're really technologically advanced or that they're any more technologically advanced than anybody 227 00:15:18,102 --> 00:15:19,502 else and they're not. 228 00:15:20,062 --> 00:15:34,062 There are boutique law firms probably in London who are way more technologically advanced than any of the Big Four because they're totally, totally committed to working in a new 229 00:15:34,062 --> 00:15:34,758 way. 230 00:15:35,124 --> 00:15:35,924 That's interesting. 231 00:15:35,924 --> 00:15:36,394 Yeah. 232 00:15:36,394 --> 00:15:37,825 I actually see it a little differently. 233 00:15:37,825 --> 00:15:43,277 I think the ownership, the ownership model matters. 234 00:15:43,277 --> 00:15:44,348 And here's why. 235 00:15:44,348 --> 00:15:51,901 Uh, first it opens up all new sources of capital and, uh which didn't exist prior. 236 00:15:51,901 --> 00:16:02,144 It also allows, creates scenarios where you can offer stock options to highly sought after executives and they can have an ownership stake in the business. 237 00:16:02,225 --> 00:16:03,535 And when you start having 238 00:16:03,535 --> 00:16:09,206 external capital flow into an industry, it changes how that industry operates. 239 00:16:09,207 --> 00:16:19,009 There will be boards of non-lawyers who hold management accountable in ways that today doesn't happen in the US, right? 240 00:16:19,009 --> 00:16:31,825 The ownership is exclusively lawyers and um it limits the, there's a little bit of um an echo chamber in legal that 241 00:16:31,825 --> 00:16:36,768 I think you're going to get like, get, I get emails from VCs all day long in their pitch. 242 00:16:36,768 --> 00:16:43,225 If they don't have a legal resume, which most don't because VCs weren't very interested in legal till about two years ago. 243 00:16:43,225 --> 00:16:48,725 Uh, but their pitch is we have a whole and the Pete, is the PE playbook too. 244 00:16:48,725 --> 00:16:59,681 We have a whole bullpen full of operators that can help you with HR, finance, operations, sales and marketing, and they will be at your disposal if we are investors in your 245 00:16:59,681 --> 00:17:00,517 company. 246 00:17:00,517 --> 00:17:05,337 And think about those functions and how they operate in law firms today. 247 00:17:05,337 --> 00:17:06,830 It's fairly immature. 248 00:17:06,830 --> 00:17:18,715 There's been several, mean, multiple law firms in the UK that have sold out and several that have listed on the stock market, they have almost all been complete failures. 249 00:17:18,756 --> 00:17:20,896 And some of them have actually gone bust. 250 00:17:20,997 --> 00:17:31,350 Some have just delisted because I think, I'm not poo pooing the whole thing, but I think we're coming at it the wrong way. 251 00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:32,601 I think... 252 00:17:33,674 --> 00:17:44,190 I think trying to get a law firm that's operated as a law firm for a hundred years and its clients, which it's had for decades and decades, that current generation of clients, to 253 00:17:44,190 --> 00:17:53,806 just suddenly switch and start operating as a sort of super powered, you know, sort of law firm on corporate steroids. 254 00:17:53,806 --> 00:17:55,186 I'm not sure if that's ever going to work. 255 00:17:55,186 --> 00:17:58,609 I the UK experience shows it's a complete failure pretty much. 256 00:17:58,609 --> 00:17:59,429 It hasn't worked. 257 00:17:59,429 --> 00:18:01,644 I think coming at it a different way. 258 00:18:01,644 --> 00:18:05,075 This is ironic because I'm going to mention atrium, which actually was also a failure. 259 00:18:05,075 --> 00:18:13,229 It's interesting when people try and reinvent the law of that model, it usually messes up badly, but I think maybe we just need to keep trying the same way that people kept on 260 00:18:13,229 --> 00:18:13,909 trying to fly. 261 00:18:13,909 --> 00:18:18,851 then, you know, ah it kept like flying into the ground. 262 00:18:18,851 --> 00:18:25,864 the, if you started from scratch, I think there is hope. 263 00:18:25,864 --> 00:18:27,765 And this is one of the interesting things. 264 00:18:27,765 --> 00:18:29,826 People say that atrium fails in a lot. 265 00:18:29,826 --> 00:18:32,188 because of the technology, the technology was rubbish, blah, blah. 266 00:18:32,188 --> 00:18:39,514 And lots of people, particularly the more cynical types, laughed at the whole thing, you know, for how dare a non-lawyer try and do this. 267 00:18:39,915 --> 00:18:46,760 The reason why, my theory anyway, the technology at that point in the market cycle was irrelevant anyway. 268 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:53,606 Even law firms that were using tons of technology, the technology was having almost zero impact on the actual ability of them to succeed or not. 269 00:18:53,606 --> 00:18:56,506 Legal tech is still largely irrelevant right now. 270 00:18:56,506 --> 00:18:58,310 ah 271 00:18:58,550 --> 00:19:00,691 At that point, it was almost completely irrelevant. 272 00:19:00,832 --> 00:19:09,748 The reason why Atrium failed is because you got a bunch of lawyers out of large law firms who had very sticky relationships with all the big funds and all the big corporates, 273 00:19:09,748 --> 00:19:10,618 right? 274 00:19:11,539 --> 00:19:18,364 And you suddenly assumed that all the client goodwill was just going to move over to this new business. 275 00:19:18,364 --> 00:19:19,267 That's why it failed. 276 00:19:19,267 --> 00:19:21,116 It's basic human reasons, right? 277 00:19:21,116 --> 00:19:27,576 know, why does one lawyer, why does the in-house lawyer at Sequoia, it's gigantic fun. 278 00:19:27,576 --> 00:19:34,352 billions to invest, go to Wilson and Sonsini or Cooley or Latham and Watkins or Gunderson. 279 00:19:34,352 --> 00:19:34,652 Why? 280 00:19:34,652 --> 00:19:36,173 Because they know these people. 281 00:19:36,173 --> 00:19:38,475 They probably live on the same street, right? 282 00:19:38,475 --> 00:19:39,486 They go to the same parties. 283 00:19:39,486 --> 00:19:40,697 The kids know each other. 284 00:19:40,697 --> 00:19:41,708 They trust each other. 285 00:19:41,708 --> 00:19:42,629 They respect each other. 286 00:19:42,629 --> 00:19:44,821 They went to Stanford together, right? 287 00:19:44,821 --> 00:19:45,782 They see each other's work. 288 00:19:45,782 --> 00:19:49,735 They see that each other's work products every single week, right? 289 00:19:49,735 --> 00:19:50,686 There's a bond there. 290 00:19:50,686 --> 00:19:52,147 They trust each other. 291 00:19:52,568 --> 00:19:55,980 And then some of the more junior people disappear. 292 00:19:55,980 --> 00:20:06,974 walk off to the server law firm is run by a guy who set up a gaming video website, throwing some small amounts of technology, but he's neither gonna change things one way or 293 00:20:06,974 --> 00:20:09,055 the other and go, hey, why hasn't it worked? 294 00:20:09,055 --> 00:20:10,575 Well, of course it didn't work. 295 00:20:10,575 --> 00:20:13,136 Cause you can't rip out all that client goodwill. 296 00:20:13,136 --> 00:20:14,316 It's not as simple as that. 297 00:20:14,316 --> 00:20:19,628 However, that said, I think if they had another bash at it and they were more careful. 298 00:20:20,474 --> 00:20:24,525 And they didn't go through the big sale that tech is going to solve all the problems. 299 00:20:24,525 --> 00:20:32,231 I mean, if they just do really low value stuff like this thing that's happened in the UK that you mentioned earlier, this Garfield thing, whatever it is doing really, really, 300 00:20:32,231 --> 00:20:40,565 really low value letters for small claims court stuff, which frankly you could probably do on check GPT yourself if you wanted to write and get away with it. 301 00:20:41,246 --> 00:20:42,947 Uh, very low legal risk on that. 302 00:20:42,947 --> 00:20:46,108 would have thought, don't quote me. 303 00:20:46,108 --> 00:20:47,269 Please don't. 304 00:20:49,176 --> 00:20:53,427 Please do not write to this website. 305 00:20:53,427 --> 00:21:03,090 But the key point is this, is that could you from scratch build a private equity backed, actually I probably wouldn't do private equity because I'm a little bit dubious about the 306 00:21:03,090 --> 00:21:15,453 intentions of private equity funds, but could you do a VC backed or a angel backed law firm from first principles from scratch with tons of technology? 307 00:21:16,454 --> 00:21:17,514 Yes. 308 00:21:17,940 --> 00:21:20,432 if you hired the right people, right? 309 00:21:20,432 --> 00:21:29,116 If some of the top funds lawyers in California, like really the top people, absolute, people who've got a book of business in the hundreds of millions, right? 310 00:21:29,116 --> 00:21:36,461 know, people who could just come and just their presence would shift the game, right? 311 00:21:36,461 --> 00:21:40,706 So I would start off with, say, okay, so you've got this corporate tabla rosa, right? 312 00:21:40,706 --> 00:21:43,745 So you bring in your AI, la la la la, all that kind of fancy stuff, right? 313 00:21:43,745 --> 00:21:44,805 But you need the people. 314 00:21:44,805 --> 00:21:45,986 And then as you were saying, 315 00:21:45,986 --> 00:21:53,891 you know, Ted, like great points about like, bringing in much, much better HR, much, better management, all different, all these other faculties. 316 00:21:53,972 --> 00:21:59,195 And then could you throw money at it and like make it expand kind of rapidly? 317 00:21:59,235 --> 00:22:01,876 Yeah, but again, it comes down to people doesn't it? 318 00:22:01,876 --> 00:22:09,342 I mean, if we're at the very, very bottom of the market, if we buy for K out, we'd very, very super, super low level, like doing like legal zoom, right? 319 00:22:09,342 --> 00:22:15,276 Like a tiny company in Nebraska needs one employment contract for its one employee. 320 00:22:15,470 --> 00:22:17,671 right, it's a garage, right? 321 00:22:18,933 --> 00:22:20,875 They'll just jump on the legal zoom. 322 00:22:20,875 --> 00:22:25,478 It's low risk, you know, there's no big deal there, but that's not gonna change the game. 323 00:22:25,478 --> 00:22:32,544 If you're gonna start to work with really important clients, it's gonna be the people first and the tech will come after to support it. 324 00:22:32,544 --> 00:22:34,466 And I think that is the stumbling block. 325 00:22:34,466 --> 00:22:36,247 And that is actually, this is the key point. 326 00:22:36,247 --> 00:22:39,129 This is why the big four never made an impact in legal. 327 00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:44,792 Because if the very, very, very, very best deal lawyers, 328 00:22:44,792 --> 00:22:51,566 from Clifford Chan's link later, Slaughter and May, Freshfield, know, creme de la creme walked off en masse and had joined the big four. 329 00:22:51,566 --> 00:22:55,112 That would have changed the world, but they didn't. 330 00:22:55,847 --> 00:22:56,749 Yeah, they didn't. 331 00:22:56,749 --> 00:22:57,560 They haven't yet. 332 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,305 um I agree with you on that. 333 00:23:00,387 --> 00:23:06,338 And I think it was attributed to Gandhi, um but I think it's a myth. 334 00:23:06,757 --> 00:23:07,554 Yeah. 335 00:23:07,554 --> 00:23:10,634 Best private equity lawyer in the world. 336 00:23:10,794 --> 00:23:11,614 Joking. 337 00:23:14,934 --> 00:23:16,134 He was a lawyer. 338 00:23:16,134 --> 00:23:18,721 He was lawyer as we all know. 339 00:23:18,721 --> 00:23:21,272 um that. 340 00:23:21,272 --> 00:23:27,666 I think his quote was, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. 341 00:23:28,447 --> 00:23:32,449 And I think that you're right. 342 00:23:32,449 --> 00:23:34,290 This is a lot like flying. 343 00:23:34,290 --> 00:23:39,823 And now that there's been a new um innovation that 344 00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:44,172 enters into the equation, I think the outcome could be different just like it was for the Wright brothers. 345 00:23:44,172 --> 00:23:49,974 So I do see this as a different era. 346 00:23:49,974 --> 00:24:03,659 um I just think there's going to be the way, if you look at, know some people who do law firm strategy, quite a few actually, and they help lawyers basically create a 347 00:24:03,659 --> 00:24:08,861 differentiation strategy and a marketing communication strategy. 348 00:24:09,415 --> 00:24:21,768 The maturity of law firms relative to other industries is low and there's a lot of, there's a lot of gap between where the current state and what is possible. 349 00:24:21,888 --> 00:24:25,850 And I think that's why we have the Amlal 200 instead of the big four. 350 00:24:25,850 --> 00:24:31,131 It's a ton of boutiques that's driven largely by relationships like you just mentioned. 351 00:24:31,131 --> 00:24:35,382 And, and the brand is the brand matters, right? 352 00:24:35,382 --> 00:24:38,811 Who, who, who's opposing counsel on this matter is going to 353 00:24:38,811 --> 00:24:41,423 influence whether or not I choose to settle. 354 00:24:41,703 --> 00:24:42,623 Right. 355 00:24:43,385 --> 00:24:46,677 And that so that matters in in the future. 356 00:24:46,677 --> 00:24:48,378 And again, this is to your point. 357 00:24:48,378 --> 00:24:53,071 I think what's going to happen is it's going to happen slowly than suddenly. 358 00:24:53,092 --> 00:25:02,178 In other words, I think we're not going to see any major shifts in the next two or three years, but five years, seven years, 10 years. 359 00:25:02,179 --> 00:25:05,597 I feel like it's going to turn on a dime because if 360 00:25:05,597 --> 00:25:12,942 the current trajectory of capabilities continue or even steepen, which is a lot of people are predicting. 361 00:25:14,263 --> 00:25:21,518 it's just going to open up new opportunities where lawyers aren't necessarily the best innovators. 362 00:25:21,518 --> 00:25:29,974 did a post on this where I mapped out the five or no, it's about seven, uh, personality traits of lawyers as defined by Dr. 363 00:25:29,974 --> 00:25:31,836 Larry Richard, who wrote lawyer brain. 364 00:25:31,836 --> 00:25:33,960 And then I, I mapped that against 365 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:40,133 the five traits of an innovator as defined by Mark Andreessen, who knows innovation. 366 00:25:40,563 --> 00:25:43,475 it's about a 40, 40, 50 % match. 367 00:25:43,535 --> 00:25:45,776 So lawyers are risk averse. 368 00:25:45,776 --> 00:25:50,719 They're very past precedent focused, not on the future. 369 00:25:50,719 --> 00:25:53,420 They're not, very resilient. 370 00:25:53,420 --> 00:25:56,842 Um, they're very happy with the status quo. 371 00:25:56,842 --> 00:26:00,164 When you look at innovators, they're on the opposite ends of those spectrums. 372 00:26:00,164 --> 00:26:02,589 So combining lawyers and in 373 00:26:02,589 --> 00:26:06,004 I'm not saying the lawyer perspective isn't important. 374 00:26:06,004 --> 00:26:11,382 It's necessary, but not sufficient in the innovation equation, in my opinion. 375 00:26:11,382 --> 00:26:13,302 I wouldn't, be honest, I don't really agree. 376 00:26:13,302 --> 00:26:26,685 I think the best lawyers are actually into risk and actually a really, really good at innovation, but they're innovating through their contracts and through litigation 377 00:26:26,685 --> 00:26:27,947 strategies. 378 00:26:28,007 --> 00:26:34,528 You know, there's right now, there's a bunch of people sitting in a, in an office in New York somewhere going, right. 379 00:26:34,729 --> 00:26:37,389 You know, has this ever been tried before? 380 00:26:37,389 --> 00:26:39,390 And like looks around the room. 381 00:26:39,390 --> 00:26:39,842 Nope. 382 00:26:39,842 --> 00:26:41,142 No one's ever done this before. 383 00:26:41,142 --> 00:26:41,693 let's do it. 384 00:26:41,693 --> 00:26:42,163 Let's do it. 385 00:26:42,163 --> 00:26:45,824 Let's do it. 386 00:26:45,824 --> 00:26:51,265 these are the people, know, whoever, know, creating the poison pill, right? 387 00:26:51,265 --> 00:26:53,106 Wachtell Lipton, right? 388 00:26:53,566 --> 00:26:54,762 That was a risk. 389 00:26:54,762 --> 00:26:55,466 It was a huge risk. 390 00:26:55,466 --> 00:26:56,136 It was an innovation. 391 00:26:56,136 --> 00:27:00,268 If that had gone wrong, it would have really damaged the firm's reputation. 392 00:27:00,268 --> 00:27:02,969 If a whole thing had just like collapsed and backfired, right? 393 00:27:02,969 --> 00:27:04,621 But it didn't, it was genius. 394 00:27:04,621 --> 00:27:07,634 Are the best lawyers on the Innovation Council? 395 00:27:07,634 --> 00:27:09,826 Are the best lawyers sitting in the CINO seat? 396 00:27:09,826 --> 00:27:11,187 I'd argue no. 397 00:27:12,288 --> 00:27:13,282 Exactly. 398 00:27:13,282 --> 00:27:21,302 you're brilliant, if you're a really super respected lawyer, he's very creative, very brave, and you've got the mind to back it up. 399 00:27:21,302 --> 00:27:23,282 You don't have to worry about it. 400 00:27:23,282 --> 00:27:26,042 If you're making like five million a year, just keep going. 401 00:27:28,282 --> 00:27:36,482 This is, think, in a funny way, it's actually where you go back to then actually agreeing, which is it's the other 95 % of the legal world that actually does have to worry because 402 00:27:36,482 --> 00:27:39,566 the other 95 % world is not Marty Lipton, right? 403 00:27:39,566 --> 00:27:49,454 You know, there's only so many people like that in any, in any sector, whether it's engineering or physics or, you know, chemistry, right, any profession. 404 00:27:50,435 --> 00:27:51,756 It's everybody else. 405 00:27:51,756 --> 00:28:01,774 And I think, and also some of those large firms, you know, there's a whole bunch of partners who, as you say, are risk averse who are just churning, you know, that thing, 406 00:28:01,774 --> 00:28:04,726 just, you know, the, the organ grinder thing. 407 00:28:04,847 --> 00:28:08,590 And I think that's, that is, I think where it is interesting. 408 00:28:08,590 --> 00:28:17,970 Because if AI does get to the point, and this is what I keep pushing for, know, like for example, I did a piece the other day, so everyone's always moaning and groaning, and, oh, 409 00:28:17,970 --> 00:28:19,530 know, this AI is not accurate enough. 410 00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:21,510 So I all right, I'm call your bluff. 411 00:28:21,730 --> 00:28:24,450 What happens if it really is perfect? 412 00:28:24,550 --> 00:28:25,970 Now what are you gonna do? 413 00:28:25,970 --> 00:28:27,930 You know, be careful what you wish for. 414 00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:32,770 Because, right, so you've got all these partners going, oh, this AI is rubbish, you know? 415 00:28:32,770 --> 00:28:37,030 And you go, now it is 99.9 % accurate. 416 00:28:37,030 --> 00:28:37,698 It is. 417 00:28:37,698 --> 00:28:42,242 better than you on a good day for these routine tasks. 418 00:28:42,482 --> 00:28:51,070 It's probably not gonna create a new poison pill, but it will do that document management, that document review project in five minutes. 419 00:28:51,070 --> 00:28:56,405 And it will be better than your best senior associate by a long, in fact, it's so good. 420 00:28:56,405 --> 00:28:57,667 You probably don't even need to check it. 421 00:28:57,667 --> 00:29:04,392 In fact, if you do check it, you're probably almost breaking bar rules because you're actually adding additional time that's unnecessary. 422 00:29:04,690 --> 00:29:05,204 Yeah. 423 00:29:05,204 --> 00:29:08,378 I were a long, long, long way from that long. 424 00:29:08,699 --> 00:29:19,911 But if we did get to that point, then all these firms who are just turning the organ, they're in trouble. 425 00:29:19,911 --> 00:29:20,421 I agree. 426 00:29:20,421 --> 00:29:22,703 I see a clear bifurcation in the market. 427 00:29:22,703 --> 00:29:30,169 Now I see firms that are going all in and staffing with, you know, rock star innovation teams. 428 00:29:30,169 --> 00:29:34,332 Sometimes they're buying companies like Cleary did with Springbok. 429 00:29:34,332 --> 00:29:36,563 I see those all in firms. 430 00:29:36,563 --> 00:29:46,854 And then I see the ones that are playing it safe and maybe piloting, you know, a 25 user co-pilot POC or maybe they're POCing Harvey or co-counsel. 431 00:29:46,854 --> 00:29:49,757 It is a very clear bifurcation from where I sit. 432 00:29:49,757 --> 00:29:59,864 And I think the ones who are, who are taking risks and thinking about this in R and D terms, instead of just purely ROI are going to come out the other side as winners. 433 00:29:59,864 --> 00:30:01,124 Well, this an interesting one, isn't it? 434 00:30:01,124 --> 00:30:06,740 Because I think there's going to be the elite firms who just ignore tech and probably will be fine. 435 00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:12,024 There'll be the elite firms and you mentioned one already who actually does bring in the tech. 436 00:30:12,024 --> 00:30:21,802 And then amongst everyone else, that's going to break down as well because, and I guess with elite firms, we can include small firms as well, boutiques who are really top of 437 00:30:21,802 --> 00:30:24,645 their game because you don't necessarily have to have thousand lawyers to be elite. 438 00:30:24,645 --> 00:30:27,357 You could be 10 lawyers, but the best in your niche as well. 439 00:30:27,357 --> 00:30:29,166 But broadly, 440 00:30:29,166 --> 00:30:30,346 And then that's going to split. 441 00:30:30,346 --> 00:30:34,046 So there'll be the firm to actually look in the mirror and accept and go, you know what? 442 00:30:34,046 --> 00:30:39,406 70 % of our work in 10 years, it's going to be AI-able, right? 443 00:30:39,406 --> 00:30:42,466 We need to get on top of this guys and let's stop pretending. 444 00:30:42,506 --> 00:30:43,946 And then they'll be fine. 445 00:30:43,946 --> 00:30:45,106 They'll probably need to merge. 446 00:30:45,106 --> 00:30:50,926 They'll need to probably restructure internally and merge and merge and merge and get more volume because they're going to become bigger engines. 447 00:30:50,926 --> 00:30:56,674 And then you're going to get the other ones who are just going to stick their head in the sand and just wait and wait it out. 448 00:30:56,674 --> 00:30:58,214 and they'll keep ringing up their clients. 449 00:30:58,214 --> 00:31:09,027 mean, it's like, then you get the innovators dilemma, you know, which is such a great book about, you know, the innovators of yesterday are certain that their clients love them and 450 00:31:09,027 --> 00:31:11,496 they keep ringing up their clients and their clients do love them. 451 00:31:11,496 --> 00:31:14,559 They can ring them up in the morning and go, you're not going to use that other firm, you? 452 00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:15,659 No, no, no, no, no, we love you. 453 00:31:15,659 --> 00:31:16,069 We love you. 454 00:31:16,069 --> 00:31:21,941 And then one day they don't answer the phone and you're like, they're playing golf. 455 00:31:22,261 --> 00:31:25,142 And then you realize they're not playing golf and they don't love you anymore. 456 00:31:25,142 --> 00:31:26,122 They're gone. 457 00:31:26,284 --> 00:31:29,083 And it's too late because you've been sitting on your hands for 10 years. 458 00:31:29,083 --> 00:31:30,274 Exactly. 459 00:31:30,596 --> 00:31:32,996 And I know uh you got to go. 460 00:31:32,996 --> 00:31:40,206 So we're going to cut this episode just a little bit short, but I want to give you an opportunity to tell people how do they find out more about the Legal Innovators 461 00:31:40,206 --> 00:31:41,277 Conference. 462 00:31:41,326 --> 00:31:48,006 Cool, well, okay, go to artificiallawyer.com if you wish, or go directly to the website. 463 00:31:48,006 --> 00:31:54,086 The first event is in June in California, San Francisco, Legal Innovators California. 464 00:31:54,086 --> 00:32:00,086 If you just go onto Google, type in Legal Innovators California, June, you will find the event. 465 00:32:00,086 --> 00:32:02,566 There's still some tickets available and it's on the 11th and 12th. 466 00:32:02,566 --> 00:32:04,126 And yeah, we'd love to see you there. 467 00:32:04,126 --> 00:32:05,326 And thanks, Ted. 468 00:32:05,326 --> 00:32:05,870 Thank you. 469 00:32:05,870 --> 00:32:06,310 good. 470 00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:08,071 It's a good conversation as always. 471 00:32:08,071 --> 00:32:18,617 So um maybe I haven't looked at the conference that closely, but we're uh we're going to take a look and see if it's a fit for what we do as well. 472 00:32:18,688 --> 00:32:20,389 Yeah, I mean, come along, come along. 473 00:32:20,389 --> 00:32:22,839 guess, are we still recording? 474 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,921 Okay, so I'm not going to talk to Ted about the opportunities. 475 00:32:27,921 --> 00:32:35,083 uh But yeah, if you want, if you guys would like to get involved, yeah, we'd love to have you. 476 00:32:35,083 --> 00:32:40,941 We'd obviously, I'll redirect you to the people in charge of that side of things. 477 00:32:40,941 --> 00:32:45,326 yeah, actually, we have people knowing that I don't actually run the event myself. 478 00:32:45,326 --> 00:32:46,038 ah 479 00:32:46,038 --> 00:32:51,508 I'm chairing the event and I've inspired the event and I help in terms of the content and so forth. 480 00:32:51,508 --> 00:32:57,237 But the actual organization of which is by the Cosmonauts conference company. 481 00:32:59,837 --> 00:33:00,718 Okay. 482 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:01,803 Well, good stuff. 483 00:33:01,803 --> 00:33:02,986 Hopefully we'll see you there. 484 00:33:02,986 --> 00:33:08,158 If not, I'm sure we'll see you at a legal conference real soon. 485 00:33:08,204 --> 00:33:13,219 Yeah, although I won't, I won't be going to any more conferences this year. 486 00:33:13,219 --> 00:33:21,929 Aside from Legal Innovators, I won't be going to any more conferences this year, ah except probably Legal Geek at the, probably in the autumn. 487 00:33:21,929 --> 00:33:27,584 I won't be coming over to the US except for Legal Innovators California and the new. 488 00:33:28,755 --> 00:33:30,226 Well, we will be there. 489 00:33:30,226 --> 00:33:33,898 We're, we're, we're stepping our, our dipping our toe into the UK market. 490 00:33:33,898 --> 00:33:36,129 And that's, we're doing three conferences over there. 491 00:33:36,129 --> 00:33:40,252 One next week, which is the PWC TLTF. 492 00:33:40,992 --> 00:33:42,273 it's a small event. 493 00:33:42,273 --> 00:33:47,906 Um, we're doing the big hand conference in London in June, and then we're doing legal geek. 494 00:33:47,906 --> 00:33:51,598 So, um, we'll definitely see it legal geek. 495 00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:53,920 Uh, all right. 496 00:33:55,141 --> 00:33:55,941 Yeah. 497 00:33:56,150 --> 00:33:59,192 We'll chat about it as soon as we stop recording here. 498 00:33:59,473 --> 00:33:59,903 All right. 499 00:33:59,903 --> 00:34:01,053 Thanks, Richard. 500 00:34:01,674 --> 00:34:02,054 All right. 501 00:34:02,054 --> 00:34:02,975 Take care. 502 00:34:03,766 --> 00:34:04,400 All right. -->